506 replies to this topic

[Viryfan]

According to Journal L'équipe , X Trac guys decided to sue Lotus for unpaid gearbox they were told that team would go under after the British GP in order to run home race.

 

According to GENII the team has been already sold or getting sold.

 

Renault if they get to buy back the team won't pay the debts.

 

http://www.lequipe.f...n-rachat/571978

[pdac]

According to Journal L'équipe , X Trac guys decided to sue Lotus for unpaid gearbox they were told that team would go under after the British GP in order to run home race.

 

According to GENII the team has been already sold or getting sold.

 

Renault if they get to buy back the team won't pay the debts.

 

http://www.lequipe.f...n-rachat/571978

 

Not sure that's going to work.

[Risil]

Now I don't have any specific doubts to cast but Lotus have been about to go bankrupt since at least 2012.

Edited by Risil, 05 July 2015 - 16:16.

[cpbell]

According to Journal L'équipe , X Trac guys decided to sue Lotus for unpaid gearbox they were told that team would go under after the British GP in order to run home race.

 

According to GENII the team has been already sold or getting sold.

 

Renault if they get to buy back the team won't pay the debts.

 

http://www.lequipe.f...n-rachat/571978

 

 

Judging by your username, you're a Renault fan, correct?  Sounds like wishful thinking on your (and L'équipe's) part to me; as "Risil" says, there have been rumours surrounding Team Enstone going bust for quite a while now.

[VolvoT5]

Bankruptcy rumors have been floating around since the middle of 2013 almost...... I mean did the drivers ever get paid that year? 

[ninetyzero]

Ah Lotus have gone bankrupt again, I was thinking it had been a while since the last media story about them going under...

[scheivlak]

Now I don't have any specific doubts to cast but Lotus have been about to go bankrupt since at least 2012.

Not to mention 1994 

[ninetyzero]

Not to mention 1994 

 

That was all Eddie Irvine's fault though...

[DamonHillOfBeans]

S'ok: the cheque is in the post 

Edited by DamonHillOfBeans, 05 July 2015 - 18:29.

[pUs]

Don't worry, a new deal with those fine gentlemen at QUANTUM MOTORSPORTS is probably in the pipeline again. Totally legit, as always. 

Edited by pUs, 05 July 2015 - 18:58.

[David Lightman]

I really don't understand how Lotus, Sauber and Force India keep going,

[masa90]

Oh well, sad to see if one of the most legendary current teams go under. F1 in general is in sick state at the moment, the money/revenuesharing is just killing the lower placed teams bit by bit .

[Kobasmashi]

Oh well, sad to see if one of the most legendary current teams go under. F1 in general is in sick state at the moment, the money/revenuesharing is just killing the lower placed teams bit by bit .

 

"Legendary". They've raced under this guise for, what, 4 years?

[nosecone]

"Legendary". They've raced under this guise for, what, 4 years?

 

He's rightfully refering to the team based in Enstone as a legendary team. Yes, they've changed their name more than once but they really have got a history

[masa90]

Yeah i mean it is Enstone team. Toleman/Benetton/Renault/Lotus. Good and historical team which sadly not many seem to understand (though partly because they keep changing their name so often hah )

[Kobasmashi]

He's rightfully refering to the team based in Enstone as a legendary team. Yes, they've changed their name more than once but they really have got a history

 

That's true, I was probably being slightly facetious. But like Risil said they've been about to go bankrupt for years now and they've always survived.

[johnmhinds]

I really don't understand how Lotus, Sauber and Force India keep going,

 

Similar things will happen to Force India and Sauber later this year.

 

This winter they all took extra money from Bernie to keep them going a little longer, but the sport has done nothing at all since then to lower the costs.

 

In fact every new rule change that has been talked about this summer will increase costs yet again for every part of the cars.

[loki]

Yeah i mean it is Enstone team. Toleman/Benetton/Renault/Lotus. Good and historical team which sadly not many seem to understand (though partly because they keep changing their name so often hah )

They've changed more than the name.  Owners, management, business strategies.  While it may be in the same building with some of the same people, it's not the same team.

[Fisico54]

Similar things will happen to Force India and Sauber later this year.

This winter they all took extra money from Bernie to keep them going a little longer, but the sport has done nothing at all since then to lower the costs.

In fact every new rule change that has been talked about this summer will increase costs yet again for every part of the cars.

Are you their accountant? Do you have access to their finances? Do you when their sponsor payments and prize money are paid?
If it's no to those questions then your just speculating

[ninetyzero]

They've changed more than the name.  Owners, management, business strategies.  While it may be in the same building with some of the same people, it's not the same team.

 

The only thing McLaren have in common with the 60's/70's team is the name yet they are still considered the same team. Enstone are a legendary, multiple championship winning team.

Edited by ninetyzero, 05 July 2015 - 21:13.

[Lord Snooty]

The 'Curse of Maldonado' strikes again? Poor boy really does have a reverse Midas touch..

[johnmhinds]

Are you their accountant? Do you have access to their finances? Do you when their sponsor payments and prize money are paid?
If it's no to those questions then your just speculating

 

Yes, the prize money is paid out one year after it is won. The prize money for the 2014 season is paid to the teams at the end of 2015.

 

Bernie gave them some of this money this winter to keep them afloat.

 

http://www.jamesalle...ow-on-the-road/

 

And the end of this year they are going to be up **** creek because they wont have enough in the prize fund to pay for next years cars.

[pdac]

Similar things will happen to Force India and Sauber later this year.

 

This winter they all took extra money from Bernie to keep them going a little longer, but the sport has done nothing at all since then to lower the costs.

 

In fact every new rule change that has been talked about this summer will increase costs yet again for every part of the cars.

 

Are you their accountant? Do you have access to their finances? Do you when their sponsor payments and prize money are paid?
If it's no to those questions then your just speculating

 

A bit touchy aren't you? You just needed to ask whether these are speculations based on nothing or based on something reported.

[Fisico54]

A bit touchy aren't you? You just needed to ask whether these are speculations based on nothing or based on something reported.

Show me the attributed quotes from somebody with the actual facts. Not supposition or speculation.

[johnmhinds]

Show me the attributed quotes from somebody with the actual facts. Not supposition or speculation.

 

I linked you to an article about it?

 

http://www.jamesalle...ow-on-the-road/

 

Have 2 more:

 

http://www.telegraph...Ecclestone.html

http://www.pitpass.c...-on-prize-money

 

The teams were already going to be getting less prize money because they we're under performing in 2014, now they're down an extra 20million.

 

With no cost caps and the big teams pushing the costs up still the smaller teams trapped in a spiral down to bankruptcy.

 

Without some clever accounting or some more rich investors they're just not going to be able to afford to race competitively.

Edited by johnmhinds, 05 July 2015 - 22:05.

[Nathan]

^ which has always been the case in F1, and motorsports in general.

[Imateria]

^ which has always been the case in F1, and motorsports in general.

Whilst true, I don't think we've ever had half the grid facing such serious financial troubles all at the same time before.

[HP]

To the OP.

 

AGAIN?!?

[Nathan]

Whilst true, I don't think we've ever had half the grid facing such serious financial troubles all at the same time before.

Absolutely that has been the case.

 

After the 1992 season the sport lost BMS, March, Brabham, Andrea Moda and Fondmetal.  5 of the 16 teams that entered in the 92 championship closed shop by the end of the year.

After 1993 Lola bowed out, and after 1994 Larousse and Lotus closed up.  That is 8 of 16 teams, not just in serious financial trouble, but doors closed over a 3 year period.

During these 3 seasons other teams like Minardi and Footwork were always on the brink, and I'm sure Jordan, Tyrrell and Sauber were rather hand-to-mouth as well.

I picked a random year, 1988, 18 teams were entered and I bet Rial, Minardi, Lola, Osella, AGS, EuroBrun, Coloni, Dallara and Zakspeed were all very tight on cash.

I then looked at 1978.  19 teams entered, of those 14 were around for the last race of the 1980 season.

Edited by Nathan, 06 July 2015 - 00:46.

[travbrad]

Absolutely that has been the case.

 

After the 1992 season the sport lost BMS, March, Brabham, Andrea Moda and Fondmetal.  5 of the 16 teams that entered in the 92 championship closed shop by the end of the year.

After 1993 Lola bowed out, and after 1994 Larousse and Lotus closed up.  That is 8 of 16 teams, not just in serious financial trouble, but doors closed over a 3 year period.

During these 3 seasons other teams like Minardi and Footwork were always on the brink, and I'm sure Jordan, Tyrrell and Sauber were rather hand-to-mouth as well.

I picked a random year, 1988, 18 teams were entered and I bet Rial, Minardi, Lola, Osella, AGS, EuroBrun, Coloni, Dallara and Zakspeed were all very tight on cash.

I then looked at 1978.  19 teams entered, of those 14 were around for the last race of the 1980 season.

 

The difference is now there are only 10 teams to start with.  If F1 loses a few of those 10 teams that doesn't leave many cars left on the track to go racing (which is sort of the whole point).  If teams got rewarded only based on their performance/points then those smaller teams would be in a much better financial situation, but the way it works right now is the big teams get big financial bonuses just for showing up, no matter how well they do.  The smaller teams are left fighting for the scraps, which then makes it even harder to compete in the future because they don't have the money to develop a good car.

Edited by travbrad, 06 July 2015 - 03:19.

[Myrvold]

Another difference is that back then we had teams actually wanting, and trying to get in to F1. While Pacific, Simtek, Forti and LOLA didn't really have success (to put it mildly), we also saw Stewart arrive. So while we lost 8 teams from 92-94, we gained 2 in 94 as well, then another one in 95, and two in 97.

 

Now we have Manor, Sauber, Force India and Lotus struggling, McLaren is slow, with no big sponsor. And we have HAASarri F1 knocking on the door. But that's it.

Edited by Myrvold, 06 July 2015 - 01:20.

[Fisico54]

I linked you to an article about it?

http://www.jamesalle...ow-on-the-road/

Have 2 more:

http://www.telegraph...Ecclestone.html
http://www.pitpass.c...-on-prize-money

The teams were already going to be getting less prize money because they we're under performing in 2014, now they're down an extra 20million.

With no cost caps and the big teams pushing the costs up still the smaller teams trapped in a spiral down to bankruptcy.

Without some clever accounting or some more rich investors they're just not going to be able to afford to race competitively.

James Allen article is the same one he wrote pre Melbourne with a different first paragraph. Other are rehashes of it.
No attributed quotes that Lotus will collapse now or the others soon. Plus it wasn't all there prize money they received just one tranche early so they still have the others to survive on.

[george1981]

Absolutely that has been the case.

 

After the 1992 season the sport lost BMS, March, Brabham, Andrea Moda and Fondmetal.  5 of the 16 teams that entered in the 92 championship closed shop by the end of the year.

After 1993 Lola bowed out, and after 1994 Larousse and Lotus closed up.  That is 8 of 16 teams, not just in serious financial trouble, but doors closed over a 3 year period.

During these 3 seasons other teams like Minardi and Footwork were always on the brink, and I'm sure Jordan, Tyrrell and Sauber were rather hand-to-mouth as well.

I picked a random year, 1988, 18 teams were entered and I bet Rial, Minardi, Lola, Osella, AGS, EuroBrun, Coloni, Dallara and Zakspeed were all very tight on cash.

I then looked at 1978.  19 teams entered, of those 14 were around for the last race of the 1980 season.

 

Even back in the 90s it was a lot easier and cheaper to start an F1 team. Nowadays someone entering F1 needs to spend 3 years planning and financing it before they get on the grid, get approval from the FIA and everything that comes with it. If an F1 team drops out today an up and coming F3000 team won't take their place the following year as happened in the early 90s.

[johnmhinds]

James Allen article is the same one he wrote pre Melbourne with a different first paragraph. Other are rehashes of it.
No attributed quotes that Lotus will collapse now or the others soon. Plus it wasn't all there prize money they received just one tranche early so they still have the others to survive on.

 

How? They're all going to be getting less money than they had this past winter because of their poor race results in 2014, and 20million of next years budget has been used to pay this years bills. Bernie can't keep giving them $20million hand outs every season just so they can build their cars and then trundle around at the back of the pack.

 

Lotus will survive if Renault buys them out, but Force India and Sauber who were already on the limit with almost no money to develop and test their cars this season are going to be in even worse shape next year.

 

The budgets for the top teams keep rising and the budgets of the smaller teams keep shrinking. And the top teams have proven over and over that they don't care about the budget gap.

[F1matt]

I hate to read stories like this, I know we have them all the time about the smaller teams  but anyone who was at the GP yesterday knows we need at least 20 cars, when we lost a quarter of the grid in the first few laps the cars get really spaced out and when your at the track you need something to watch! 

[Imateria]

Absolutely that has been the case.

 

After the 1992 season the sport lost BMS, March, Brabham, Andrea Moda and Fondmetal.  5 of the 16 teams that entered in the 92 championship closed shop by the end of the year.

After 1993 Lola bowed out, and after 1994 Larousse and Lotus closed up.  That is 8 of 16 teams, not just in serious financial trouble, but doors closed over a 3 year period.

During these 3 seasons other teams like Minardi and Footwork were always on the brink, and I'm sure Jordan, Tyrrell and Sauber were rather hand-to-mouth as well.

I picked a random year, 1988, 18 teams were entered and I bet Rial, Minardi, Lola, Osella, AGS, EuroBrun, Coloni, Dallara and Zakspeed were all very tight on cash.

I then looked at 1978.  19 teams entered, of those 14 were around for the last race of the 1980 season.

A lot of those teams you mentioned are backmarkers that struggled to even qualify for races. Even if no new teams entered for 93 (which we know at least Sauber did) that still leaves us with a field of 22 cars. And there in lies the biggest difference between then and now, the turnover of teams coming and going was high back then but the chances of finding replacements for all the teams currently struggling if they disappear is non existent. Haas might be coming but I don't see anyone else joining them and at this point in time Lotus, Force India and Sauber are all facing a shortfall in their budgets for next year because they've already spent a significat proportion of the prize money they would have received to make this years grid.

[emmanuelrubi]

Wonder where Pa$$$tor Maldonado will end up if Lotus goes away.

[SealTheDiffuser]

Wonder where Pa$$$tor Maldonado will end up if Lotus goes away.

 

if his petro$$ keep rolling, then FINDIA or Williams

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 06 July 2015 - 12:28.

[emmanuelrubi]

if his petro$$ keep rolling, then FINDIA or Williams

 

Williams unlikely after 2013 when he trash talk them.

[Gilles4Ever]

Motorsport.com @Motorsport

The Lotus F1 team is facing a winding-up petition from creditors: bit.ly/1dHrNzK #F1

[FerrariV12]

Absolutely that has been the case.

 

After the 1992 season the sport lost BMS, March, Brabham, Andrea Moda and Fondmetal.  5 of the 16 teams that entered in the 92 championship closed shop by the end of the year.

After 1993 Lola bowed out, and after 1994 Larousse and Lotus closed up.  That is 8 of 16 teams, not just in serious financial trouble, but doors closed over a 3 year period.

During these 3 seasons other teams like Minardi and Footwork were always on the brink, and I'm sure Jordan, Tyrrell and Sauber were rather hand-to-mouth as well.

I picked a random year, 1988, 18 teams were entered and I bet Rial, Minardi, Lola, Osella, AGS, EuroBrun, Coloni, Dallara and Zakspeed were all very tight on cash.

I then looked at 1978.  19 teams entered, of those 14 were around for the last race of the 1980 season.

 

Pedantry alert but BMS didn't go bust at the end of 1992, they switched chassis supplier from Dallara to Lola (thereby changing the official constructor name), and then, as you say, hit the wall at the end of 1993.

 

But yeah, the real difference back then, as others have already said, was that even with some stragglers leaving on a regular basis, there was a healthy turnover of teams, sometimes the intake didn't match the outgoing exactly, and the grid size would fluctuate, but it remained overall healthy.

 

And to be honest I'm not sure what the answer is because it's not like the sport was fundamentally different back then. The constructor requirement was still there (even if you could outsource the design/construction like BMS did, the IP had to be unique and that's still allowed today, see Haas with Dallara). Carbon fibre tubs were already established, so its not as if these late 80s/early 90s newcomers were knocking up tube frames or aluminium monocoques on garage floors either. If anything there was more technical freedom within the regs, a tyre war most years, and a wide variety of engines.

 

Maybe it's just the fact that you could subcontract a basic chassis, fit a Ford or Judd V8 to it and go racing 5 or 6 seconds off the pace without being branded a waste of space or a joke (that being saved for the Lifes of this world). Today's Manor would be a solid midfield proposition back then.

[SealTheDiffuser]

Williams unlikely after 2013 when he trash talk them.

 

yeah, but look at what McLaren did...

 

and Williams also needs more money.

 

I 'd like to see him in the FINDIA. or Ferrari.

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 06 July 2015 - 14:41.

[Fatgadget]

Williams unlikely after 2013 when he trash talk them.

Err!..Never say never in the la-la land that is F1 mate! ...Now,whoever thought Alonso's move to McLaren would ever be a possibility after the 2007 shenanigans?

[HeidfeldsBeard]

After their miserable weekend I suspect Lotus are already wound-up enough!

Edited by HeidfeldsBeard, 06 July 2015 - 15:26.

[KWSN - DSM]

The winding up order does lead credence to the article by opening post, will it result in Renault buying the carcass? Who knows, if wound up there are no debt to take on I presume just a firesale of actives to cover what ever can be covered. The bigger story here is that a team winning races in both 2012 and 2013 are facing closure, a team which have been pointed out being in existence since early 1980ies not being able to sustain in the current F1 setup against the current economic world climate.

 

We may or may not agree on the distribution between teams being fair or not fair, being right or wrong, being the cause or not of the team struggles, we should all be able to agree that F1 IS in a crisis and the powers in place seem incapable of understanding how dire the situation is, incapable of understanding the constant chop of F1's DNA is the WRONG way to go.

 

* Qualifying is man, machine and track. It is not a race for a race, the driver in his car are to beat the track getting the best possible start position for the race.

* F1 should not be a closed franchise, any and all should be able to sign up with intent and will to climb to the top.

* There should not be a specified engine configuration, there should a size and a equivalency between normally aspirated and compressor, turbo charged engines.

* There can be fuel tank limits, but they need to be so big the cars will not run out when full, for the strategy being under-filling in attempt to gain advantage and the risk of then running out.

* There should not be a mandatory pitstop, F1 is a race of 300 Km first across the line win.

* There should be a better distribution of funds, based on finish in the WCC not based on who you are or historic achievements.

* There should be no gimmicks like DRS, the rules can easily be written in a way which would en able cars to follow each other without losing ability to overtake.

 

Lotus may have been financially mismanaged the past several years, there is certainly blame to be passed for that, however they are not entirely in this situation by own making. Them actually getting wound up is as far as I read it still a question, but the signs are not good even if they are not.

 

[Fastcake]

Err!..Never say never in the la-la land that is F1 mate! ...Now,whoever thought Alonso's move to McLaren would ever be a possibility after the 2007 shenanigans?

 

I seriously doubt Williams would take Maldonado back unless they really need money. Alonso had the advantage of being one of the best drivers on the grid - Maldonado certainly does not.

[SealTheDiffuser]

I seriously doubt Williams would take Maldonado back unless they really need money. Alonso had the advantage of being one of the best drivers on the grid - Maldonado certainly does not.

 

f1 teams always need money, sure they are better off than Manor, Sauber, Lotus or Findia but then they are there...

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118689

 

they'd never decline 40 $ dollars against what BOT or MAS bring even after what happened with MAL... he will get 2nd win for them in 2016 or 2017 I'm sure.

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 06 July 2015 - 15:45.

[emmanuelrubi]

If an open slot opens at Williams and need money Perez would have the advantage but wait a sec are we really comparing Maldonado to Alonso ?

[Fisico54]

f1 teams always need money, sure they are better off than Manor, Sauber, Lotus or Findia but then they are there...

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/118689

they'd never decline 40 $ dollars against what BOT or MAS bring even after what happened with MAL... he will get 2nd win for them in 2016 or 2017 I'm sure.

By that logic why are Hulkenberg, Massa, Bottas employed now? Simple answer is that teams (other than Mercedes/RB/Ferrari) have to weigh up the results+prize money and then sponsors created by that success against the lesser results and not being so attractive to potential sponsors but having cash from a pay driver. I can't see that Williams are in a situation where having Maldonado's cash outweighs the benefits of having the best 2 drivers available

[sopa]

yeah, but look at what McLaren did...

 

and Williams also needs more money.

 

I 'd like to see him in the FINDIA. or Ferrari.

 

While F.India or Williams might be slightly more picky about the drivers they are going to pick, Sauber literally sells their seats to highest bidders. So unless Maldonado can get elsewhere, there is always Sauber waiting for him.