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VW Emissions Scandal


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#551 Greg Locock

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 18:41

All you've done is introduced another test schedule. Which will still be gamed. And you (or society) will pay for it. Enjoy.

 

Apply your logic to crash, see where that takes you.



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#552 BRG

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 19:18

So which are you?  Lawyer, engineer or lobbyist?  You seem happy that neither laboratory nor real world testing is any good.  I guess you prefer that there be no restrictions.

 

And incidentally, your last sentence is a meaningless assembly of words.



#553 Greg Locock

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:26

I am an engineer. My last sentence means why don't you apply your 'logic' to crash? After all we must be gaming the lab tests.

#554 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 04:46

You are missing the point.  The emissions rules are that an engine shall produce no more then X CO2 and Y NOx.  So you should be able to test it on a wet Tuesday in January or a hot Thursday in July or in a snow storm at night and it should be compliant.  If it fails at any time, then it is not compliant.  It is simple.  It is only made complicated by lawyers, engineers and lobbyists.  They gave us  VWGate.

Which ever way is used the figures will be an aproximate. In that respect the dyno is best. But VW taught the computer to read the test conditions and cheat. 

I am sure that many vehicles out there have less than ideal emissions as well as far less MPG that did not cheat on the testing. But not it seems near as much difference as diesel VWs.



#555 7MGTEsup

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 17:09

You are missing the point.  The emissions rules are that an engine shall produce no more then X CO2 and Y NOx.  So you should be able to test it on a wet Tuesday in January or a hot Thursday in July or in a snow storm at night and it should be compliant.  If it fails at any time, then it is not compliant.  It is simple.  It is only made complicated by lawyers, engineers and lobbyists.  They gave us  VWGate.

 

I'm not missing the point, the current regulations say you can not produce more than 1000mg/km CO, 100mg/km THC, 60mg/km NOX and 68mg/km NMHC on the CURRENT NEDC drive cycle. So to take that car and test it in any other condition is pretty pointless as the car has been optimised for the test conditions. It legally only has to pass this test in these conditions.

 

I'm not saying it's right just stating facts.



#556 7MGTEsup

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 17:22

7M - The test cycle optimisation carried out by manufacturers needs to stop. There is enough connected technology available to put in cars to test real world data. Regulators need to see and use technology as the manufacturers do. Real world data aggregated over time with inconsistencies is much more useful than any controlled test cycle. Because no car is ever used in test cycle conditions. Just let someone go drive the car for a week and take the average, minimum, maximum figures. It would be much more useful, accurate, cheaper. But who wants those when you can have a technology metric wank in a lab.

 

Tenmantaylor I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just stating that to test a car outside the boundaries for which it was calibrated (legally) and say it doesn't pass the test is a pretty pointless exercise.

 

How would manufactures be able to correlate the data between each other in real world testing unless they all tested on the same bit of road at the same temperature and barro? They want to sell you a car based on a performance criteria (fuel consumption/emissions) be these vary greatly due to driver input, temperature, barro, road camber, road gradient, road surface ect ect. This is why they always end up back in a lab even though you rightly point out that we drive in the real world.



#557 Greg Locock

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 20:53

We used to test mpg by driving in a convoy on public roads, with the test car, a production car, and a competitor car, each rotating the lead for 1/3 of the time. It costs a fortune and the results were quite variable. Also if the driver of the test car was also the transmission calibration engineer he'd know how to exploit the schedule.

Edited by Greg Locock, 09 March 2017 - 00:11.


#558 kikiturbo2

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 00:27

You are missing the point.  The emissions rules are that an engine shall produce no more then X CO2 and Y NOx.  So you should be able to test it on a wet Tuesday in January or a hot Thursday in July or in a snow storm at night and it should be compliant.  If it fails at any time, then it is not compliant.  It is simple.  It is only made complicated by lawyers, engineers and lobbyists.  They gave us  VWGate.

 

 

problem is that CO2 and NOx emissions are directly related to the way people drive, and the loads on the engine. It is enough, for example, to drive above the speed limit and you are allready above the expected average speed which equals more co2 and NOx.... One of the problems with NOx emissions was that those were regulated "per km" and not as a percentage of CO2 emissions.. so any time the car was experiencing a load above NEDC standard cycle, it was outside allowable emissions..



#559 imaginesix

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 01:32

I'm sure there's some multiple well below 40 that could bet set as a real-world limit to lab test results.



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#560 jcbc3

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 06:54

We used to test mpg by driving in a convoy on public roads, with the test car, a production car, and a competitor car, each rotating the lead for 1/3 of the time. It costs a fortune and the results were quite variable. Also if the driver of the test car was also the transmission calibration engineer he'd know how to exploit the schedule.

 

So he didn't do the job he was asked to do?



#561 bigleagueslider

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 02:45

"One of the problems with NOx emissions was that those were regulated "per km" and not as a percentage of CO2 emissions."

 

Consider that up to 10% of the exhaust gas is recirculated back into the intake air charge to reduce NOx formation during combustion. The inert CO2 in the recirculated exhaust gas is used to reduce NOx.



#562 Greg Locock

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 04:46

Jcb3 i dunno what job was he asked to do? When I test a car nobody has ever asked me to impersonate an average driver.

#563 jcbc3

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:59

My understanding of your original post was that your company were attempting to compare three cars real life fuel consumption. But that if a transmission engineer was driving one of the three cars the results (since the discussion was about unrepeatability in real life test) would be skewed as he was also doing transmission 'work' while testing fuel consumption. That to me sounds like someone not doing the job that was set out to do (testing fuel mileage).

 

Sorry if that was a misunderstanding of your words.



#564 7MGTEsup

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 11:46

The problem with being a calibration engineer is you know how to drive a car to obtain the results you want. I can't forget how to drive to do any of my testing and there is no such thing as an average driver.



#565 BRG

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 20:22

So VW have finally put their hands up, in the USA at least.  And the probably humongous fine that will be levied should help finance that wall which those pesky Mexicans won't pay for.  Hope there is enough meat on the bone to pay off the UK class action participants.  ;)

 

https://www.nytimes....wners.html?_r=0



#566 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 07:03

So VW have finally put their hands up, in the USA at least.  And the probably humongous fine that will be levied should help finance that wall which those pesky Mexicans won't pay for.  Hope there is enough meat on the bone to pay off the UK class action participants.  ;)

 

https://www.nytimes....wners.html?_r=0

And yet here in Oz they are challenging that they cheated! I sometimes wonder wether these companies and their paid mouthpieces actually look at the news!



#567 Greg Locock

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 18:05

I'm not following the Oz situation, but my guess is VWs argument would be that they meet the Australian regs which are different to the USA ones, and are probably different to the EU ones. In my experience ADRs can be poorly drafted even when based on the EU regs. I don't know what basis Choice magazine had for their letter, it looked to me as though they just assumed that if usa regs had been broken then so had ADRs, that is dodgy.

Edited by Greg Locock, 12 March 2017 - 18:21.


#568 kikiturbo2

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 19:55

"One of the problems with NOx emissions was that those were regulated "per km" and not as a percentage of CO2 emissions."

 

Consider that up to 10% of the exhaust gas is recirculated back into the intake air charge to reduce NOx formation during combustion. The inert CO2 in the recirculated exhaust gas is used to reduce NOx.

 

Yes but it is closely related to the avg consumption because NOx emission is a percentage of exhaust gas.. and there are no limits on CO2 emissions...

 

So it is somewhat easier for a 100 g/km CO2 emissions vehicle to get 0.060 g/km NOx than it is for a 250 g/km CO2 one..

 

additional problem is that the NOx is closely related to the test cycle, so onece you start driving faster than pedicted everything goes out of the window.

 

I am not saying that VW didnt cheat, far from it, just that the regs are very dependant on the test cycle..



#569 GreenMachine

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 22:31

I suspect Greg is right.  Sometimes our penchant for doing things our way comes back to bite us, or in this case, consumers.



#570 Greg Locock

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Posted 12 March 2017 - 23:35

Here's one example of an ADR that is a bad copy of an EU one. Tailpipe noise when stationary is measured during the driveby noise test. In EU this number is recorded. The intention is to provide a quick roadside test to check if an exhaust for that model is vaguely in spec. (It is not a very good check)  In the ADR 28/01 it is limited to 90 dBA (off the top of my head). This means that you might need a unique exhaust system for Oz, as it is another requirement. The test procedure is also badly drafted, I could get you 3 dBa variance while meeting it -it specifies no hard walls within 3m.



#571 bigleagueslider

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 05:17

So VW have finally put their hands up, in the USA at least.  And the probably humongous fine that will be levied should help finance that wall which those pesky Mexicans won't pay for.  Hope there is enough meat on the bone to pay off the UK class action participants.  ;)

 

https://www.nytimes....wners.html?_r=0

It remains to be seen what will happen between VW and the US government. A Congressional investigation revealed that the Obama administration was funneling money from fines/penalties extracted from private companies by federal agencies, to political activist groups aligned with the Democrat party. There is legislation currently before Congress related to this situation.

 

http://www.dailywire...a-prestigiacomo



#572 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 05:48

Here's one example of an ADR that is a bad copy of an EU one. Tailpipe noise when stationary is measured during the driveby noise test. In EU this number is recorded. The intention is to provide a quick roadside test to check if an exhaust for that model is vaguely in spec. (It is not a very good check)  In the ADR 28/01 it is limited to 90 dBA (off the top of my head). This means that you might need a unique exhaust system for Oz, as it is another requirement. The test procedure is also badly drafted, I could get you 3 dBa variance while meeting it -it specifies no hard walls within 3m.

Noise is very subjective, weather conditions, background infrastructure and many other things effect noise. Been there done that with racecars, cloud cover increases the noise up to 5db.

I seem to have a lot of noisier modern cars drive by here. Late model Commondores, Rexs and Lancers. Some seem quite loud. Though all of those cars even totally standard are noisier. I suspect some get pinged [with a fine] for excessive noise.

Back in the 70s owners of Falcon GTs, MGBs and the like used to get pinged for noise, this in brand new cars. In the officers opinion!



#573 bigleagueslider

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 04:07

Looks like Tesla may have tried to skirt US NHTSA regulations requiring reporting of known safety problems. Wonder if US federal regulators will pursue Tesla for any violations as aggressively as they went after VW.

 

http://www.zerohedge...s-customer-ndas



#574 Magoo

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 14:10

It remains to be seen what will happen between VW and the US government. A Congressional investigation revealed that the Obama administration was funneling money from fines/penalties extracted from private companies by federal agencies, to political activist groups aligned with the Democrat party. There is legislation currently before Congress related to this situation.

 

http://www.dailywire...a-prestigiacomo

 

 

"it was revealed" and "I read it on the fake news" are not the same thing. 



#575 bigleagueslider

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 05:24

Are you saying this is fake?

 

https://www.congress...se-report/694/1



#576 Magoo

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 14:01

Are you saying this is fake?

 

https://www.congress...se-report/694/1

 

Let's say it has a highly partisan slant. And it was skewed even further as it passed through multiple layers of partisan abstraction and finally arrived at a right-wing fruitcake political blog. The Daily Wire? Zero Hedge? Really? 



#577 Magoo

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 01:41

http://www.reuters.c...s-idUSKBN17G1AK



#578 bigleagueslider

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 05:25

Magoo,

 

The US House of Representatives legislation link I provided is the official government text of a bill before Congress intended to remedy the problem described in the Daily Wire piece. Where money from US federal court settlements is diverted for purposes not included in the US budget law, when this money should go into the US Treasury general fund instead where it will benefit all US citizens.

 

Here's a summary of the problem the bill seeks to correct:

"Purpose and Summary -   H.R. 5063, the ``Stop Settlement Slush Funds Act of 2016,''prohibits terms in Department of Justice (DOJ) settlements that direct or provide for payments to non-victim third-parties."

Per your Reuters article, the financial settlement between VW and the US DOJ was $4.3 billion. To date none of that $4.3 billion has ended up in the US Treasury general fund. But VW has agreed to "invest" $1.2 billion of the penalties over the next 10 years in various "zero emissions projects". No word on where the other $3.1 billion will end up.

 

https://www.epa.gov/...al-11-18-16.pdf

https://www.eenews.n...ument_pm_02.pdf



#579 Greg Locock

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 09:19

I thought you were talking about Tesla sidestepping the NHTSA recall procedure? I know little and care less about VW's fines and where they go to, that's just politics. 

 

So back on the Tesla thing, I agree they are playing fast and loose there, but the numbers are small (sounds like a few dozen). If they can keep a lid on it by progressively fixing cars as they go bad then that is certainly a path many companies have taken, but of course by its nature that masks the actual statistics. We already know Teslas are unreliable. Mind you that Zero Hedge article is one step from the Daily Fail, 'terrifying loss of power' actually means the engine cut out, something many of us treated as a weekly occurrence when we were young. Presumably the brakes and steering still worked.

 

I am far more concerned about bemused by their idiotic attitude to autopilot, fortunately for the most part their customers seem more sensible than the company.



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#580 bigleagueslider

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 06:49

Let the fun begin: https://www.hbsslaw....oncomplaint.pdf

 

Ironically, the law firm behind this class action against Tesla is also pursuing civil litigation against VW over the diesel emissions case.

 

"Hagens Berman is one of the most successful auto litigation law firms in the U.S. and has taken on Toyota, Hyundai, Kia and other automakers for consumers. The law firm is also leading national charges against Volkswagen and Mercedes for use of diesel emissions-cheating software, and your claim will be handled by experts in automotive consumer law."



#581 Magoo

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 10:09

Magoo,

 

The US House of Representatives legislation link I provided is the official government text of a bill before Congress intended to remedy the problem described in the Daily Wire piece. Where money from US federal court settlements is diverted for purposes not included in the US budget law, when this money should go into the US Treasury general fund instead where it will benefit all US citizens.

 

Here's a summary of the problem the bill seeks to correct:

"Purpose and Summary -   H.R. 5063, the ``Stop Settlement Slush Funds Act of 2016,''prohibits terms in Department of Justice (DOJ) settlements that direct or provide for payments to non-victim third-parties."

Per your Reuters article, the financial settlement between VW and the US DOJ was $4.3 billion. To date none of that $4.3 billion has ended up in the US Treasury general fund. But VW has agreed to "invest" $1.2 billion of the penalties over the next 10 years in various "zero emissions projects". No word on where the other $3.1 billion will end up.

 

https://www.epa.gov/...al-11-18-16.pdf

https://www.eenews.n...ument_pm_02.pdf

 

 

 

 

You may be shocked to learn that not all the proposed legislation that makes it into the House of Representatives is worthwhile. 



#582 bigleagueslider

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Posted 23 April 2017 - 04:13

You may be shocked to learn that not all the proposed legislation that makes it into the House of Representatives is worthwhile. 

Apparently you don't realize that all US federal legislation originates in the House of Representatives. No bill goes anywhere until it passes a vote in the House. Then the bill is sent to the Senate for an up/down vote, or sent back to the House for modification. Whether or not you personally consider legislation approved by the US House to be "worthwhile" is essentially irrelevant. That's just how the American system of a Constitutional representative republic works.

 

And by the way, HR 5063 passed a House vote last year: https://www.govtrack...s/114-2016/h488



#583 Magoo

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 00:42

Apparently you don't realize that all US federal legislation originates in the House of Representatives. No bill goes anywhere until it passes a vote in the House. Then the bill is sent to the Senate for an up/down vote, or sent back to the House for modification. Whether or not you personally consider legislation approved by the US House to be "worthwhile" is essentially irrelevant. That's just how the American system of a Constitutional representative republic works.

 

And by the way, HR 5063 passed a House vote last year: https://www.govtrack...s/114-2016/h488

 

 

Well, that went straight over your head. I merely noted that not all proposed legislation is worthwhile. As an extreme right-wing basket case, you of all people would appreciate that, one would surmise. 



#584 Magoo

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Posted 24 April 2017 - 00:43

The latest in real court:

 

http://www.reuters.c...s-idUSKBN17N1SD



#585 bigleagueslider

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 03:56

"As well as accepting the agreement reached between VW and the U.S. government, Cox rejected separate calls from lawyers representing individual VW customers for restitution."

 

So VW plea bargains to significantly reduced criminal fines, the Federal Executive gets $2.8B for its "slush fund", and individuals pursuing civil claims against VW get screwed by the Federal Judge.



#586 Magoo

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 03:42

"As well as accepting the agreement reached between VW and the U.S. government, Cox rejected separate calls from lawyers representing individual VW customers for restitution."

 

So VW plea bargains to significantly reduced criminal fines, the Federal Executive gets $2.8B for its "slush fund", and individuals pursuing civil claims against VW get screwed by the Federal Judge.

 

 

 

The "slush fund" is the U.S. Treasury and the individual claims are a separate matter, which includes the buyback of several hundred thousand cars + cash payouts. 



#587 bigleagueslider

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Posted 11 May 2017 - 05:06

The "slush fund" is the U.S. Treasury and the individual claims are a separate matter, which includes the buyback of several hundred thousand cars + cash payouts. 

 No, the problem is that significant amounts of money paid by private parties under federal court settlement agreements with the US DoJ never makes it to the US Treasury. Instead, the US DoJ (which is part of the US Federal Executive) allows the defendants to "donate" part or all of the settlement directly to various activist organizations the DoJ chooses. The organizations receiving these settlement "donations" are typically politically aligned with the DoJ leadership. As you note, all of these settlement funds imposed by the court as fines are legally required to go to the US Treasury. So what the US DoJ has been doing by allowing these settlement funds to be "donated" directly to organizations, rather than being paid to the US Treasury, is not legal. The House bill noted seeks to stop this practice.

 

If you're interested, here's a brief article about the recent history behind this problem. https://www.washingt...m=.27f0f90059de



#588 Cig35

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Posted 02 June 2017 - 15:09

And now it turns out that also Audi A7 and A8 have gotten caught

However this cheat worked in a totally different way. (VAG have at least been creative in how to detect if the car is in a test situation or not.)

 

"The affected Audi models with so-called Euro-5 emission standards emit about twice the legal limit of nitrogen oxides when the steering wheel is turned more than 15 degrees, the ministry said."

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-audi-idUSKBN18S5Y5

 



#589 saudoso

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 10:16

Oh that's precious.



#590 Charlieman

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 11:08

And now it turns out that also Audi A7 and A8 have gotten caught

 

I hope that VAG were exposed by a whistle blower. It has not helped the reputation of engineers and technologists that the concept of professional ethics has been ignored.



#591 bigleagueslider

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Posted 08 June 2017 - 01:30

The "slush fund" is the U.S. Treasury and the individual claims are a separate matter, which includes the buyback of several hundred thousand cars + cash payouts. 

Here's an official announcement from the US Attorney General stating an end to the DOJ's practice of diverting settlement funds to third parties not directly involved in the case. This occurred with a significant part of the financial compensation VW agreed to pay to the US DOJ.

 

https://www.justice....lement-practice



#592 bigleagueslider

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 03:12

Today's US BK filing by Takata is notable. Especially when compared to the VW diesel emissions case.

 

https://www.bloomber...air-bag-recalls



#593 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 01 July 2017 - 00:42

I read in the media yesterday that now Euro authorities are taking action against VW and Bosch people.

Bosch has been so far left out, though it appears knowingly made waht VW ordered.

The Takata airbag drama is still just that, I own a Landcruiser that uses the same airbag[and steering wheel]  as a Camry but the Cruisers have not been recalled but Camrys have!

There is noteable gaps in these recalls as other manufacturers have the same gaps.



#594 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 01 July 2017 - 00:45

Today's US BK filing by Takata is notable. Especially when compared to the VW diesel emissions case.

 

https://www.bloomber...air-bag-recalls

A Chinese manufacturer? God help us. So many items that test properly then are made cheaper and dirtier after the order has been placed.

Fire resistant cladding that burns really well!