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VW Emissions Scandal


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#51 bigleagueslider

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 04:29

I don't think VW has admitted to any criminal actions, and no one at VW has been fired over this issue. VW's CEO voluntarily resigned, and the US EPA has only submitted a notice of violation to the US DOJ for their consideration. It is up to the US attorney's office to determine if VW has violated any US laws, and if so what violations VW should be charged with. This will take a long time, and before it gets to court there will be a new US AG and a new US President that may see things differently.



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#52 Canuck

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 05:14

It looks like the software came from Bosch. Reports today say VW was warned in 2007 by Bosche "not to use the software illegally". There's also apparently internal evidence uncovered that had one of their own engineers raising concerns about it in 2011.  VW aren't confirming anything so it's just more rumours at this point.  They may not have fired anyone but several people on the engine group (or power train group) have been suspended according to VW.


Edited by Canuck, 28 September 2015 - 05:16.


#53 Magoo

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 20:44

Two fascinating (for me) questions:

 

How does a company make millions of vehicles and then set them free out in the world with this fantastic easter egg in their engine calibrations, into the hands of every Tom, Dick, and Harry and tuner shop, somehow convincing themselves that nobody, nowhere is going to stumble over it? This is either incredible hubris or an incredible blind spot. Not clear which yet. 

 

Couple of us were kicking this around the other day and decided that to execute this scheme would require the implicit knowledge of perhaps two dozen people. That's pretty large for a conspiracy, and I expect the plea deals and ratting each other out will be commencing any moment. SOP. What puzzles me is who makes the call to green light this scheme. Who in the company has this pope-like authority, or thinks they do?  


Edited by Magoo, 28 September 2015 - 20:45.


#54 Magoo

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 20:47

I don't think VW has admitted to any criminal actions, and no one at VW has been fired over this issue. VW's CEO voluntarily resigned, and the US EPA has only submitted a notice of violation to the US DOJ for their consideration. It is up to the US attorney's office to determine if VW has violated any US laws, and if so what violations VW should be charged with. This will take a long time, and before it gets to court there will be a new US AG and a new US President that may see things differently.

 

 

Not unless Nixon's head gets elected. 



#55 desmo

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 00:03

One fix or measure proposed has been requiring all onboard software for cars be published open source.  The makers could cry about it I suppose, but not much else.



#56 Greg Locock

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 05:15

I'm less than convinced that that would be a great move. It'd certainly make after market tuners jobs a great deal easier, so they could circumvent the EPA emissions stuff!

 

Apparently there's a Bosch letter from 2007 warning them that the switch software was for development use only, and would be illegal in production. That would be an interesting read.



#57 Canuck

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 14:25

Opening up the software would smash the doors wide open not only for the tuner crowd, but for the more malicious hackers. We've already seen it's possible to attack the operating conditions of a vehicle using just the native Bluetooth connections (no physical contact required at any stage). Once the code is available, it becomes trivial to do far more damage.

#58 desmo

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 15:15

Well it turns out open source software is often more rather than less secure.  MS run *ix in fact on some of their critical servers.  I know it sounds counterintuitive, but most of the internet behind the scenes is run on open source OS for precisely that reason.



#59 mariner

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 16:21

This may be out in left field but I wonder if there is a cultural as well as commercial aspect to the VW cheating?

 

Way back in the 1970's various US government bodies began legislating on car design. California smog controls, unleaded fuel, air bags etc. The reaction by many senior European auto engineers was indignation and scorn which seemed to have an element of intellectual arrogance as well. This was not just Germans but British and French engineers too plus the magazine technical editors who interviewed them.

 

So the first California smog controls had “why should everybody suffer just because one US city has problems when the sun shines" Unleaded fuel would “wreck fuel economy and cause the world to run out of oil”. As for airbags basically “only Americans want them because they are too stupid to belt up like Europeans"

 

Now I’m summarising but the scorn ran deep. As it happens those euro engineers were very wrong as today Europe has followed the US in adopting most US safety and pollution concepts.

 

What is the connection to VW/ Well the VW bosses are not Detroit bean counter types, they are all mid 60's aged  career auto engineers who began those careers just as their bosses were  treating the US regulations with distain. I wonder if that view became engrained and helped them justify ignoring US rules now?

 

Just a thought



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#60 Greg Locock

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 22:35

Um, I don't remember any Big 3 CEOs driving around in 1 L/100 km prototypes. I think those days are well and truly gone. You are right about airbags, but EFI was always a popular move, ditto unleaded.

 

I really doubt that the guys who have been fired/resigned/put on gardening leave to date would have been aware that they were cheating. It is the lower levels of management that I'd be looking at. People at my level would have implemented it, one step above would know pretty much what we'd done, two levels up would have been briefed. Three levels up, "wow you got that LNT stuff to work for US CA, good oh".



#61 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 29 September 2015 - 23:08

Opening up the software would smash the doors wide open not only for the tuner crowd, but for the more malicious hackers. We've already seen it's possible to attack the operating conditions of a vehicle using just the native Bluetooth connections (no physical contact required at any stage). Once the code is available, it becomes trivial to do far more damage.

I feel that was only on one model of Jeep. Not VW.

I am surprised these cars have not been recalled yet. Though what are they going to do? In effect the cars proably will require major engineering to comply, not just a electronics 'tune down' If that is all they do there will be a LOT of VW owners very unhappy.



#62 Greg Locock

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 01:45

I don't think it is fixable in a way that everyone will be happy. The Passat uses SCR (urea), its NOx emissions were 10-25 times the legal limit - an improvement over the Jetta's 10-35, but still not even close. So whatever they do to the Jettas etc with the LNT technology, even fitting SCR, there will still be a performance and mpg hit if they get to the NOx limit.

 

If they simply delete the switch, so that the cars run in EPA compliant mode all the time, then some people will simply fit aftermarket chips to regain mpg and performance, and the net situation will be EXACTLY where we are now with those cars.

 

One option is for VW to buy all half a million cars back from California, and sell them in markets which have less stringent NOx limits. That's big bikkies, but seems more robust to me.



#63 Magoo

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 02:43

I don't think it is fixable in a way that everyone will be happy. The Passat uses SCR (urea), its NOx emissions were 10-25 times the legal limit - an improvement over the Jetta's 10-35, but still not even close. So whatever they do to the Jettas etc with the LNT technology, even fitting SCR, there will still be a performance and mpg hit if they get to the NOx limit.

 

If they simply delete the switch, so that the cars run in EPA compliant mode all the time, then some people will simply fit aftermarket chips to regain mpg and performance, and the net situation will be EXACTLY where we are now with those cars.

 

One option is for VW to buy all half a million cars back from California, and sell them in markets which have less stringent NOx limits. That's big bikkies, but seems more robust to me.

 

 

Yes, that will be Phase 2 of this s**t storm -- the buyback lawsuits. 

 

EDIT: once cars are bought back, I can't imagine VW selling them into any other market -- would have the appearance of dumping. 


Edited by Magoo, 30 September 2015 - 02:47.


#64 gruntguru

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 03:04

Greg.

Surely these cars fail emissions standards in the other states as well. Are you suggesting that cars outside California might be viable to "fix" via recall?


Edited by gruntguru, 30 September 2015 - 03:04.


#65 bigleagueslider

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 05:12

All the VW models in question demonstrated they are capable of meeting EPA NOx emissions requirements with their existing NOx equipment, either SCR or LNT. The only thing that would seem to require changing is the part of the software controlling operation of the NOx equipment. The only issue with this is the effect on published EPA mileage or service intervals for the SCR system. There have been a couple recent situations where auto OEMs were forced to pay compensation to owners of vehicles that did not meet published EPA mileage numbers.



#66 Greg Locock

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 06:18

Greg.

Surely these cars fail emissions standards in the other states as well. Are you suggesting that cars outside California might be viable to "fix" via recall?

Yes, at least with a smaller hit to performance and mpg. 



#67 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 06:33

Greg.

Surely these cars fail emissions standards in the other states as well. Are you suggesting that cars outside California might be viable to "fix" via recall?

 

CARB is always stricter than the EPA standards. Up until fairly recently some sport bikes were built in a 49 state and California version with different emissions equipment (and a higher price) but I believe everyone has ceased doing so now.

 

Given how big of a market California is the manufacturers simply design to those standards but in this case, as Greg pointed out, they could theoretically meet the regular EPA standards and sell in the 36 states that haven't adopted CARB standards.



#68 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 08:35

As I understand it the emissions rules are fairly universal in the US, Europe and Oz. And I am sure many other markets too.

So I do not think this is exclusive to California. But instead the majority of the world.



#69 mariner

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 13:02

If I understand it correctly the US situation is governed by the role of Federal versus State government. The Federal gov't has control of interstate commerce so its arm , the EPA, can enforce standards on new cars sold across state lines. Each state can then have its own rules provided they do not impinge on interstate commerce or those items reserved exclusively for the Federal government.

 

So California(CA)  can have tough rules on cars if sold only in CA. Other states can have little or no rules or adopt  legally valid rules from other states.

 

So in CA emissions are tested annually , now done usually by reading the ECU records via the OBD2 port. CA is looking now at continuous real time monitoring via wireless with automatic fines if the car is caught twice in violation more than, say,  30 days apart.

 

In contrast New Mexico (NM) has, outside Albuquerque/Bernalilo county no emissions tests at all. I think the logic is that CA has huge metro areas and sees itself as rich enough to afford most legistlation whereas NM is very poor with only one metro area, Albuquerque. So as NM citizens outside Albuquerque are usually poor but must drive in such an empty state failing a 5 yr old car on emissions would be beyond their abilty to repair it.

 

Given that the EPA test requiries 50,000 mile compliance i guess the NM government figures 80%+ of rural cars wil be within limit so why impose extra costs on the many poor people



#70 Talisman

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 15:56

One option is for VW to buy all half a million cars back from California, and sell them in markets which have less stringent NOx limits. That's big bikkies, but seems more robust to me.

 

Certainly in the UK, probably elsewhere too, many of the newer affected cars are still under finance agreements and are therefore still owned by VW.  When those finance agreements expire presumably VW can opt to take the cars back for the pre-agreed residual value and simply take them out of the system.  Buying back the cars is fraught with risk, many owners are perfectly happy with their cars, what happens if they refuse to have them modified to comply, losing performance and refuse to sell them back?



#71 Canuck

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 18:59

Well, the first thought that pops into my mind, for owners such as you've described, is legal seizure. They don't now and never did legally comply (in the U.S. at least) so legally shouldn't be in the road. Undertaking such an action now, penalizing all current owners would of course not drive much support for the EPAs actions with VW. You'd have 482,000 angry hippies and university profs.

#72 Cirio

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 19:50

Certainly in the UK, probably elsewhere too, many of the newer affected cars are still under finance agreements and are therefore still owned by VW.  When those finance agreements expire presumably VW can opt to take the cars back for the pre-agreed residual value and simply take them out of the system.  Buying back the cars is fraught with risk, many owners are perfectly happy with their cars, what happens if they refuse to have them modified to comply, losing performance and refuse to sell them back?

The cars wouldn't pass the MOT, I suppose, since that includes an emissions test. Insurance companies insist on owners operating their cars in acordance with the manufacturer's instructions, so your insurance would be invalid.



#73 Talisman

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 20:15

The cars wouldn't pass the MOT, I suppose, since that includes an emissions test. Insurance companies insist on owners operating their cars in acordance with the manufacturer's instructions, so your insurance would be invalid.

 

The unmodified cars would pass the MOT as I presume those older than 3 years already have.  The software in question will detect that the car is being tested and go into emissions mode.



#74 Cirio

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 20:18

The unmodified cars would pass the MOT as I presume those older than 3 years already have.  The software in question will detect that the car is being tested and go into emissions mode.

That's a point. I wonder if the testers would check to see if the mods had been carried out; the thing is so high profile I don't suppose they would neglect that.

 

I think the insurance point is valid, though; if you don't have an  accident you're probably OK......


Edited by Cirio, 30 September 2015 - 20:20.


#75 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 23:46

If I understand it correctly the US situation is governed by the role of Federal versus State government. The Federal gov't has control of interstate commerce so its arm , the EPA, can enforce standards on new cars sold across state lines. Each state can then have its own rules provided they do not impinge on interstate commerce or those items reserved exclusively for the Federal government.

 

So California(CA)  can have tough rules on cars if sold only in CA. Other states can have little or no rules or adopt  legally valid rules from other states.

 

So in CA emissions are tested annually , now done usually by reading the ECU records via the OBD2 port. CA is looking now at continuous real time monitoring via wireless with automatic fines if the car is caught twice in violation more than, say,  30 days apart.

 

In contrast New Mexico (NM) has, outside Albuquerque/Bernalilo county no emissions tests at all. I think the logic is that CA has huge metro areas and sees itself as rich enough to afford most legistlation whereas NM is very poor with only one metro area, Albuquerque. So as NM citizens outside Albuquerque are usually poor but must drive in such an empty state failing a 5 yr old car on emissions would be beyond their abilty to repair it.

 

Given that the EPA test requiries 50,000 mile compliance i guess the NM government figures 80%+ of rural cars wil be within limit so why impose extra costs on the many poor people

What exactly are the federal regs re emissions in the US? As I understand it these days they are the same. As are the design rules.

A one state only car is always a joke anyway. What happens when you buy a car from another state? I am sure federal Govt fleets are sold where they end up. And Rental fleets etc. If you have different regs state to state a legal vehicle in one state is not legal in the next.

Like bringing in a car from overseas or another country.

 

Emissions requirements though are a in theory thing sometimes. A dyno shop I know has said that many new [or near new] cars do not comply. And power outputs vary quite a deal too on two cars the same model dynoed back to back.

eg, cam timing is different between two engines or computer has the engine too rich or lean. They have dynoed over the years several primarily sporty models they themselves have owned or friends and relatives yet alone customers.

 

I am sure that manufacturers use known  


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 01 October 2015 - 03:05.


#76 Greg Locock

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Posted 01 October 2015 - 00:10

In brief, the NOx emissions regs are far more aggressive in CA than in most states or any other country, something like 1/2 the permitted level in the EU, for example. Emissions regs vary a great deal around the world, that's why the new Ranger has so many buildable powertrain combinations (in the hundreds if not thousands).


Edited by Greg Locock, 01 October 2015 - 09:03.


#77 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 01 October 2015 - 00:53

A one state only car is always a joke anyway. What happens when you buy a car from another state? I am sure federal Govt fleets are sold where they end up. And Rental fleets etc. If you have different regs state to state a legal vehicle in one state is not legal in the next.

Like bringing in a car from overseas or another country.

 

Right, which is why nobody does that. Instead of the rest of the country gets cars that meet CARB standards. There might be some exceptions but even exotics have an incentive to build a CA legal car as they're likely to sell more here than anywhere else in the US.

Importing a car not sold in the states is borderline impossible as is registering one that was imported to another state. Some people use an out of state residence to get around this (and to save on registration fees) but state law technically prohibits it.



#78 Magoo

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Posted 01 October 2015 - 13:50

http://FunnyOrDie.com/m/9zlw



#79 Magoo

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Posted 01 October 2015 - 14:01

Greg.

Surely these cars fail emissions standards in the other states as well. Are you suggesting that cars outside California might be viable to "fix" via recall?

 

 

By other markets, I assumed he meant like Somalia or the Dominican Republic. Chad. 



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#80 Cirio

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Posted 01 October 2015 - 20:00

Here's an extract from a Guardian article:

 

"However, concerns are growing about how VW will pay the fines and compensation claims that could emerge from the crisis.

Max Warburton, analyst at Bernstein, said the worst case scenario in the US for VW was a fine of $7.4bn (£4.9bn) from the Environmental Protection Agency, but he said it facedother costs around the world.

Warburton said: “The company has a fairly robust balance sheet – but also has a very conservative approach to financing and its credit rating. We believe that if the cash costs exceed €10bn, a capital raise is highly likely.”

VW has already slowed production at one of its biggest engine factories and frozen hiring at its finance unit, which offers loans to buy new cars."

 

The $7.4bn is much less than the touted number of $18bn.

The company has net worth of 90bn euros so little chance of going bust, but it's definately serious.



#81 mariner

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Posted 01 October 2015 - 20:22

To add some factual backround to al of this here is good global emission summary by Delphi

 

http://delphi.com/do...16.pdf?sfvrsn=2

 

I THINK it says euro5/6 Nox for diesels is stil well above the EPA tier 2 level which the famous VW's couldn't meet on the road - .is that correct?

 

I guess if that is true then maybe the VW's wiith the dodgy software might still have passed Euro5 , the std when they were built?

 

Nonertheless it turns out that eh Euro NEDC test protocal forbids "defeat devices" just like the EPA one so VW have basically admitted criminality in Europe as well as the USA


Edited by mariner, 01 October 2015 - 20:27.


#82 Greg Locock

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 01:15

Magoo, I tried to find  simple straightforward list of NOx limits for diesels by legislature, and gave up. I think you'll find that some US states have high, or indeed no, limit for cars once they are in use. They'd be a natural market for these otherwise excellent cars.



#83 Magoo

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 02:07

Magoo, I tried to find  simple straightforward list of NOx limits for diesels by legislature, and gave up. I think you'll find that some US states have high, or indeed no, limit for cars once they are in use. They'd be a natural market for these otherwise excellent cars.

 

I wasn't thinking of the emissions so much as the public relations challenges. I would suggest somewhere without telephone or Internet service. 



#84 Magoo

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 02:29

Horiba gets some nice PR: 

 

 

http://www.bloomberg...mbled-mighty-vw



#85 desmo

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 15:38

https://boingboing.n...-brothel-a.html

 

More on the potential dangers of non-open source code in vehicle systems.



#86 kikiturbo2

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 16:06

To add some factual backround to al of this here is good global emission summary by Delphi

 

http://delphi.com/do...16.pdf?sfvrsn=2

 

I THINK it says euro5/6 Nox for diesels is stil well above the EPA tier 2 level which the famous VW's couldn't meet on the road - .is that correct?

 

I guess if that is true then maybe the VW's wiith the dodgy software might still have passed Euro5 , the std when they were built?

 

Nonertheless it turns out that eh Euro NEDC test protocal forbids "defeat devices" just like the EPA one so VW have basically admitted criminality in Europe as well as the USA

 

the engines in question were Euro 5 engines.

 

It will be interesting to see if they really used the cheating software in EU. Those VW engines were always suspiciously "punchy" for declared power..



#87 Canuck

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 16:42

Admittedly as a "performance enthusiast" with a hankering for tinkering, I love the idea of open-source ECU code. Would take aftermarket tuning to an entirely new level of sophistication. And I could re-program the transmission in my Expedition to not be so sluggish and lazy.



#88 BRG

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 19:09

Now that Audi, Skoda and SEAT are also implicated, I guess my 2010 Ibiza 1.6TDi was also one of the dodgy ones.  

 

Fortunately, I traded it in for 2015 petrol Ibiza early last month.  But now the SEAT dealer that I bought from has closed down without warning.  I wonder if they knew this sh!tstorm was coming and decided to liquidate the business to avoid all the indignant customers kicking their door down?



#89 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 02 October 2015 - 20:06

the engines in question were Euro 5 engines.

 

It will be interesting to see if they really used the cheating software in EU. Those VW engines were always suspiciously "punchy" for declared power..

VW turbo engines are punchy in general for the declared power.  I have the non-diesel one, and it's feeling much more lively than the 200 hp rating would suggest.  I think the answer is that they're tuned for the mid-range power, rather than for top end like the 2.0 4-cylinder turbos of other manufacturers.



#90 Talisman

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 19:25

Now that Audi, Skoda and SEAT are also implicated, I guess my 2010 Ibiza 1.6TDi was also one of the dodgy ones.  

 

Fortunately, I traded it in for 2015 petrol Ibiza early last month.  But now the SEAT dealer that I bought from has closed down without warning.  I wonder if they knew this sh!tstorm was coming and decided to liquidate the business to avoid all the indignant customers kicking their door down?

 

SEAT were always the least successful brand they had, I wouldn't be surprised if it went up for sale as a result of this debacle if they got seriously short of cash.



#91 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 23:17

Sales of diesel VW brands have been banned in Oz as of friday. Reputedly 12% of their sales.

Have sales been banned in other markets yet?

Also has the emmisions for petrol engines been checked too, are they pulling the same stunt on petrols too?



#92 Librules

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Posted 03 October 2015 - 23:53

Lee,  it may be subtle distinction but I think you'll find VW diesel sales have not been banned, but that VW have suspended sales themselves for an undetermined period.



#93 kikiturbo2

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Posted 04 October 2015 - 14:07

switzerland banned the first time registration of Euro 5 VW diesels.. (those are the ones with sneaky software)... meaning no sales of oldstock or imports from abroad..



#94 BRG

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Posted 04 October 2015 - 19:02

Given that most other manufacturers have 2 litre diesel engines which seem to roughly match the VW ones in power, economy etc, is it fair to surmise that some/all have fudged their emission results as well?  Any bids for the first non-VAG brand to be fingered?



#95 Canuck

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Posted 04 October 2015 - 22:36

Well, thus far the only other brand that's been publicly discussed as having been tested was BMW, who performed as expected.



#96 Greg Locock

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 01:41

BRG - the problem there is you need to compare power and torque curves running full emissions, or running no emissions, and compare emissions at the same time. I've seen some half assed attempt on TTAC, but it was what you'd expect, somebody trying to get PR for their chassis dyno 'expertise' and failing dismally.

 

However I have seen an article in The Guardian (I think) comparing NOx emissions for lots of european cars which I am unable to find.

 

Ha gottit

 

http://www.theguardi...ions-tests-show

 

Volvo says their top of the chart car was broken.

 

Here's the top few offenders

 

"ADAC put Euro 6 diesel vehicles through two tests – the NEDC test that regulators use and the WLTC test that better reflects real driving.
 
The factor shown is how many times greater the WLTC test emissions were than the NEDC test. Vehicles with the biggest factor would be expected to emit significantly more NOx on the road than regulatory tests suggest.
Mazda CX-5 SKYACTIV-D 150
Opel Meriva 1.6 CDTI ecoFlex Start&Stop
Opel Mokka 1.6 CDTI ecoFlex Start&Stop
Porsche Macan S Diesel
Audi Q5 3.0 TDI
Renault Kadjar ENERGY dCi 130
Fiat 500X Multijet Start&Stop
Hyundai Santa Fe 2.0 CRDi
Citroen DS5 Hybrid4 4x4
Hyundai i20 1.1 CRDi
Renault Grand Scenic ENERGY dCi 130 Start & Stop
Jeep Renegade 2.0 Multijet
Renault Espace ENERGY dCi 160
 
I'm not too bothered by small multiples of fail, it is a different test regime to what they were asked to pass, but factors of 5 or so indicate something is up.


#97 Greg Locock

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 01:52

Here's a technical paper extolling the virtues of the Jetta engine when it was launched, egg meet face. I haven't read it yet.

 

http://files.enginee...r_T2B5_good.pdf



#98 kikiturbo2

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 08:58

 

BRG - the problem there is you need to compare power and torque curves running full emissions, or running no emissions, and compare emissions at the same time. I've seen some half assed attempt on TTAC, but it was what you'd expect, somebody trying to get PR for their chassis dyno 'expertise' and failing dismally.

 

However I have seen an article in The Guardian (I think) comparing NOx emissions for lots of european cars which I am unable to find.

 

Ha gottit

 

http://www.theguardi...ions-tests-show

 

Volvo says their top of the chart car was broken.

 

Here's the top few offenders

 

"ADAC put Euro 6 diesel vehicles through two tests – the NEDC test that regulators use and the WLTC test that better reflects real driving.
 
The factor shown is how many times greater the WLTC test emissions were than the NEDC test. Vehicles with the biggest factor would be expected to emit significantly more NOx on the road than regulatory tests suggest.
Mazda CX-5 SKYACTIV-D 150
Opel Meriva 1.6 CDTI ecoFlex Start&Stop
Opel Mokka 1.6 CDTI ecoFlex Start&Stop
Porsche Macan S Diesel
Audi Q5 3.0 TDI
Renault Kadjar ENERGY dCi 130
Fiat 500X Multijet Start&Stop
Hyundai Santa Fe 2.0 CRDi
Citroen DS5 Hybrid4 4x4
Hyundai i20 1.1 CRDi
Renault Grand Scenic ENERGY dCi 130 Start & Stop
Jeep Renegade 2.0 Multijet
Renault Espace ENERGY dCi 160
 
I'm not too bothered by small multiples of fail, it is a different test regime to what they were asked to pass, but factors of 5 or so indicate something is up.

 

 

I find those kind of tests objectionable. The problem is different methodology and the fact that the NOx emissions are not defined as a percentage of CO2 emissions but rather as a flat g/km value. I agree that the 5x emission is suspicious, but I would rather see the same test run on the rollers and in the open.. for better comparison.



#99 Greg Locock

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Posted 05 October 2015 - 10:54

I think you have to be careful, there again that is precisely how VW were caught in the first place. I don't think anybody loves roller tests, or believes they are a good model for the real world, but the problem is, how do you replace them?

 

One thing our fuel consumption guys do is to run a convoy of current production car, main competitor, and new car, on the sort of routes that magazines use. That is horrendously expensive, not all that accurate and of course rather tricky to use as a development target. It is primarily done so we don't look too stupid when the reviews come in (and so far as I know our real world fuel consumption has always improved model by model-at least I don't get 15 l/100 km any more!).



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#100 mariner

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 15:31

It was the imfamously corrupt US Lousiana  politician Huey " Kingfish" Long who once said " one day the people of Lousiana will get honest government and they won't like it"

 

I suspect the same wil apply to this saga of how " wrong " the NEDC test is and how it must be changed to show real life fuel consumption.

 

In the UK cars are taxed on CO2, if you do a more realistic test and get higher CO2 the taxes go up. That sytem is due to change but company cars which are 50% of the UK market hit users income tax bills directly related to CO2 rating so the after-tax income of 3-4 milion people would go down.

 

If f the test is made more realistic then the EU either has to relax the 95gms/km average target for 2020 and admit it's reneging on climate change or accept the consequences in the market. Basically that wil be to wipe dozens of european models on sale because getting a real 95gms/km is probably out of reach with known technology, at least by 2020.

 

So imagine a new car buyer going into a BMW showroom, say, and seeing only small engined 1 series on show. "wheres the 3 series I want to buy?" - sorry its over 95 gms real world so we dont sell it anymore.

 

Given new car lead times doing the right thing on CO2/emissions tests may cause chaos.