107 replies to this topic

[carl s]

Not sure just how accurate this news item is but hoping it may spur further commentary on Miller's early years of engine production.

 

 

The Automobile Vol 35 1916
Sep 28, 1916
<a href="https://books.google...=onepage&q=hugo ogren 1915&f=false" rel="nofollow">books.google.com/books?id=nGcxAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA544&l...</a>

Racing Engine for Ogren Has Integral Oil Leads
 Los ANGELES CAL Sept 22 The Harry A Miller Mfg Co this city has completed a new racing engine for Hugo W Ogren of the Ogren Motor Car Co Chicago Ill This engine has recently developed 135 hp on the block at 2900 rpm The engine has several unusual features All oil leads are cast in a crankcase and cylinders eliminating pipe lines the water manifold also being cast integral with cylinder head and side plate The valve action has a follow cam that makes the rocker arm follow the cam Thus lighter inlet and exhaust springs are used on the valves as they only have to close the valves and do not have to return the rocker arms This arrangement enables the motor to attain a speed of 4500 rpm Four Ball Bearing Crankshaft The engine has a bore of 3 and stroke of 7 in and a four ball bearing crankshaft a double set of ball bearings being used on the flywheel end of the shaft All valve mechanism is inclosed Ignition is by two independent Bosch magnetos and a Miller carburetor is employed Mr Ogren intends to place the engine in a chassis of his own design for speedway work.

[Lee Nicolle]

Not sure just how accurate this news item is but hoping it may spur further commentary on Miller's early years of engine production.

 

 

The Automobile Vol 35 1916
Sep 28, 1916
<a href="https://books.google...=onepage&q=hugo ogren 1915&f=false" rel="nofollow">books.google.com/books?id=nGcxAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA544&l...</a>

Racing Engine for Ogren Has Integral Oil Leads
 Los ANGELES CAL Sept 22 The Harry A Miller Mfg Co this city has completed a new racing engine for Hugo W Ogren of the Ogren Motor Car Co Chicago Ill This engine has recently developed 135 hp on the block at 2900 rpm The engine has several unusual features All oil leads are cast in a crankcase and cylinders eliminating pipe lines the water manifold also being cast integral with cylinder head and side plate The valve action has a follow cam that makes the rocker arm follow the cam Thus lighter inlet and exhaust springs are used on the valves as they only have to close the valves and do not have to return the rocker arms This arrangement enables the motor to attain a speed of 4500 rpm Four Ball Bearing Crankshaft The engine has a bore of 3 and stroke of 7 in and a four ball bearing crankshaft a double set of ball bearings being used on the flywheel end of the shaft All valve mechanism is inclosed Ignition is by two independent Bosch magnetos and a Miller carburetor is employed Mr Ogren intends to place the engine in a chassis of his own design for speedway work.

Love it. SEVEN INCH stroke. 2900 is actually turning that length quite hard.

[robert dick]

The 4-cylinder Miller engine for the 300-inch formula was also announced in the magazines Motor Age/Chicago and Motor West/Los Angeles, in August and September 1916. Bore and stroke were given as 3 5⁄8 by 7.0 inches. The engine was bench tested in August 1916, giving 138 hp at 2950 rpm. Several engines were built for Tom Alley, Barney Oldfield and the Ogren Motor Car Co., Chicago.

 

The Ogren appeared on 30 September 1916, in the Astor Cup at Sheepshead Bay/New York, driven by Otto Henning. The Ogren lost a lot of time because of a blowhole in the intake manifold and was flagged.

 

A second Miller engine was mounted in the chassis of Oldfield's 4.5-litre Delage. Oldfield entered the car in the Vanderbilt Cup to be run at Santa Monica in November 1916. Because of a cracked cylinder, Oldfield was unable to start.

 

Oldfield's Golden Submarine (Miller chassis + Miller engine) and Alley's Pan-American (Pan-American Motors Co., Chicago) appeared on 16 June 1917 in the 250-miler on the Chicago/Maywood Speedway.

[carl s]

Some comments from Michael back in April of 2014

 

 

Ferner – “the Miller 289 engine that was sold to Ogren in September of 1916 was apparently the only example with an iron block, later examples all having a light-alloy ("Alloyanum") block. It was, apparently, debuted on September 30 that year at Sheepshead Bay, in a new car with a straight 1916-type Duesenberg frame (according to some sources, but I am remaining cautious here), driven either by Otto Henning (retired with a leaking manifold) or Andy Burt (finished 14th, and last). The confusion comes from the fact that Ogren had acquired a drop-frame Duesenberg in June of 1915, and both cars raced simply under the name "Ogren Special". I have seen a very fuzzy picture of the start of that race, and from deduction I could make out the two Ogrens, one with a right-hand exhaust (Duesenberg) and one with a left-hand (Miller). So, visually the two cars are very easy to differentiate, but in entry lists and race results they are not!”

[Jim Dillon]

Carl, Michael is most likely correct that the Ogren (#33) that ran at Sheepshead had the iron four (probably the only example). I tried to upload a couple of pictures without success. I recently (2014) wrote a four part article for the Antique Automobile Club of America on the MIller four and included a picture of the Ogren in the pits that I believe showed the iron four crankcase. The owner of the Ogren picture would not allow me to remove the picture from his file but did allow me to photograph his original photo. The original was also a bit washed out but I was able to study his photo with an eye loop and it had without question the iron four (the removable plates and crankcase are quite distinctive).I also included a picture of the Pan American with the hood off after Alley barrel rolled it at Omaha in 1917 showing it had the aluminum four. Some had claimed that the LA Times article had the iron four going to Chicago which it did. Alley was from Chicago but Hugo Ogren had two shops one which was in Chicago as well. I may have to experiment with uploading pics to show the two pics later on.

Edited by Jim Dillon, 05 October 2015 - 20:27.

[carl s]

Thanks all!

 

Jim, I have subscribed to AACA to be able to view your four part series.

 

Otto in his Iron Motor Ogren and Pan Am car wrecked with SOHC Alum Four

Not sure how to do this but here goes

 

https://c1.staticfli...e9a685360_b.jpg

 

https://c1.staticfli...a40f1eaf3_b.jpg

[robert dick]

From Motor West/Los Angeles, 15 May 1917:
"Miller Mfg. Co. Incorporated:
The Harry A. Miller Mfg. Co., Los Angeles, Cal., has been recently incorporated for $150,000, according to the announcement made by Harry A. Miller, president of the concern. Frank A. Adamson, associated with Miller for many years before the incorporation as business partner, is now vice-president. M. B. H. Miller, brother of Harry, is secretary treasurer."

 

Were Adamson and Miller's brother Milton involved in the design of the 300-inch engine?

In other words: Who was Leo Goossen's predecessor?

[Jim Dillon]

Robert, as we know Goossen was hired by Miller in 1919 so it is safe to say Goossen was involved in all phases of design at Miller Mfg after the 300 experiment. Prior to Goossen, Miller still had the master machinist Fred Offenhauser (shop manager plus) who probably had quite a talent for transferring Miller’s idea into reality. Miller probably could make a few sketches (possibly crude sketches) and Offenhauser had such incredible talent that Miller Mfg could accomplish pretty decent results. I am sure you are also aware that Frank Adamson was listed as co-inventor on several patents including a few carburetors which were the early mainstay of Miller Mfg. I have never researched Frank Adamson independently but did give him credit in my AACA piece in that it was most likely Adamson that was able to using his drafting skills to draw up blueprints for the 289 four.

I allege that Miller in essence copied (or at the very least leaned heavily on) the Gratien Michaux 1914 Grand Prix Schneider racing engine as the basis for his 289 four. Most seem to give credit to Delage and Peugeot for his influence and of course they influenced his decisions but in the end the 289 four and the Michaux Schneiders were so remarkably similar in components and design that it is hard to imagine happenstance. Of course there were no Schneiders for Miller to inspect or work on and that is why I published the July 30 1914 Motor Age article in my piece. This Motor Age article went into a good deal of depth on the design and components of the Michaux Motor and I allege that Adamson had the talent after reading this article and discussing the particulars at length with Miller to make a set of working drawings that allowed Miller to build both the iron and aluminum versions. Of course I do not know this to be fact but after studying the valve mechanism of the two engines they almost appear to be interchangeable (save for the number of valves they operate, 2 vs 4). If you study the other design elements the similarities seem too evident and so someone probably made a set of working drawings and it is my guess that Miller relied on his good friend Frank Adamson.

I have never researched Miller’s brother and he may very have had some incredible talents but I sadly do not know what they were.

[robert dick]

Théo Schneider:

It is amazing how many technical details of European racing cars were not published in Europe but appeared in Motor Age and The Automobile, the reports in most cases being written by William Bradley.

The two-piece crankshaft of the 300-inch Miller ran in three ball bearings, the ball bearing at the flywheel/clutch end being a double row bearing. Probably this solution was taken over from Premier and originally came from Bob Burman (the two-piece crankshaft of the 5.6-, 3- and 4.5-liter Peugeots - and of the 300-inch Stutz - ran in three single row ball bearings - the one-piece crankshaft of the 4.5-liter Théo Schneider engine ran in three two-piece roller bearings).

It seems that there were direct connections between Burman, Premier and Miller, and that a lot of components - at least - for the Premiers were manufactured in Los Angeles, by Miller and other specialized suppliers. The name Miller was not explicitly mentioned. Officially, the Premiers were built in Indianapolis, in the plant of the Mais Motor Truck Co. (founded by Johnny Mais), under the direction of James Yarian.
 

The Automobile, 10 February 1916, page 294:
"Burman to Drive Premier:
Bob Burman has signed a contract to drive Premier racing cars, which will be built in time to enter the 300-mile Indianapolis Speedway race on May 30. It is stated that he will have a voice in the construction of the car which he will drive. During his stay on the Pacific Coast where he will drive in the Ascot Park race, Feb. 22, he will build several parts for his Premier car, and will devote practically all of his time helping to complete a car."

Motor West, 1 May 1916, page 13:
"Preparing for the Annual Battle at Indianapolis:
The death of Bob Burman at Corona has changed the plans of some of those interested in the coming 300-mile Speedway race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, May 30th. Burman was to have driven one of the new Premier Specials which are being built in the factories at Indianapolis. Who will take his place is not known. Burman is credited with having incorporated in these new cars many of his pet theories and constructional features that experience has taught him."

 

= = = =

Alley's Pan-American:

 

Motor Age, 10 August 1916, page 14:
"Building Tom Alley Special:
Tom Alley, the first of the Eastern speed merchants to come to the Pacific Coast to prepare for the Vanderbilt and grand prize events, is having a new motor built at the plant of the Harry A. Miller Manufacturing Co., which is to be placed in Alley's new car, the Tom Alley Special. The motor is designed by Miller and is to bear the maker's name. It is claimed to be different from any other racing motor now in use. It is to be entirely incased in aluminum, with the exception of the two magnetos and the throttle. The bore is to be 3 5⁄8 and the stroke 7. The motor is to develop almost 150 horsepower at 3,000 r.p.m. The oiling system is one of Miller's own design. There are two separate systems on a double-gear pump system and if both of these fail under high speed, there is the splash system. There are no outside oil lines to the motor; the oil arteries are cast in the metal. For 7 months, Miller has been working on this motor and even his closest friends were not aware of the work that was going on until Alley arrived in this city and the motor was brought out from Miller's private workroom at the plant. It was announced by Alley today that the motor would be ready for the block tests Aug. 10."


 

[Jim Dillon]

Robert good stuff. I will try and load some pictures later on as my computer is really acting up. I need my IT guy to clean it up as I am having difficulty with my computer jamming when I try to load any pictures (and I am getting dialog boxes which I have filters to stop that) and additionally am not overly familiar with how to load pictures in this system now. I have in the past but it is different than a few years ago.

 

As to the Premier epsiode I am not sure what to make of it. My only guess is that Burman maybe wanted to hedge his bets that he had a decent mount for Indy. His anticipated engines from Miller may have been not 100% for the race. This topic has been discussed before but there are a few questions I have without the research to back it up. More ouija board conclusions than research based guessing for me at this point.

 

I will see what I can do with my computer later on as lately I have been a bit busy with work etc.

[robert dick]

Miller 4- and 12-cylinder described in Glenn Dale Angle: Airplane Engine Encyclopedia, 1921

 

 

[robert dick]

Miller 4-cylinder
- in Motor Age, April 1917





- in The Automobile, April 1917:



 

[Jim Dillon]

Trying a test to see if the pics load. Hopefully they will. The two pictures of the 1914 GP Schneiders as photgraphed in the Motor Age article.

 

https://imageshack.com/i/hjfIgmoIj

https://imageshack.com/i/paTOGJnqj

[Jim Dillon]

Apparently it is working. Here is a copy of the article on the Michaux motor. I shrunk it down and hopefully it is still large enough to read.

 

https://imageshack.com/i/p5awlJMwj

https://imageshack.com/i/p1cQde4Fj

[Jim Dillon]

Will work on uploading pictures so that they upload on the page rather than having to link to it, but in the meantime thought this way is better than nothing.

 

The exploded view of parts are Miller four valvetrain parts which if you study the Michaux motor details you will see the similarities. Then a view of the iron motor and also my attempt at using a copy lens to photograph the lower end of the Ogren photo at Sheepshead. The closeup was the best that I could do under the circumstances but with an eye loop I could make out the details of the iron engine.

https://imageshack.com/i/p3hoYQYVj

https://imageshack.com/i/p3qd0kygj

https://imageshack.com/i/p9bO8tgqj

[carl s]

Jim and Robert - splendid stuff.

[robert dick]

It is clear that the 300-inch Miller was influenced by the 4.5-litre Théo Schneider. And the name Peugeot comes again into play since Gratien Michaux, the designer of the Schneider, had been responsible for some of the Lion-Peugeot voiturette racers.
Michaux bio at http://gw.geneanet.o...&n=michaux&oc=0


A Miller draftsman named John Edwards is often mentioned in current publications. I could not find anything about him in the contemporary press. Any infos concerning Edwards?.

= = = = =

In January 1916, Tom Alley was involved in the Ogren project (The Automobile, 20 January 1916)



In August 1916, Alley was working on the Alley Special (Motor Age, 10 August 1916)



In January 1917, Alley had found a new backer: Pan-American (The Automobile, 25 January 1917)

 

[Jim Dillon]

Robert I have heard the name Edwards but have never stumbled on anything that would add to any involvement in the 289. He may very have been involved and there will be matters that we will miss in our attempt to uncover what really happened decades after the fact.

 

As to Alley (and actually probably Oldfield as well) there were certain delays on the aluminum four. The Delage was supposed to have been finished in late 1916 and I believe Alley's engine was probably slated for completion in late 1916 but there were obviously problems. An article in the LA Times alluded to the fact that there were problems with the crankcase cooling and cracks forming (if my memory serves me) but I believe it may have been more than that. Building this engine from scratch may have raised other problems and they had to work out the issues. The iron four was more straighforward in my opinion. It is never good press to admit your faults openly then and now and so it may have been stated that it was just one little problem with the crankcase so they could work out all of the issues. My guess. Alley was working all night on his new mount to get his car ready for its debut at the Chicago War Derby on June 16 1917.Oldfield's Delage with the new 289 made its debut two weeks earlier on May 30 1917, at the Sharonville Sweepstakes (Cincinnati Motor Speedway), the first contest I believe for the aluminum four, where he finished 11th. Hugo Ogren had Otto Henning and Jerry Mason share the driving duties at this May 30th event driving the iron 289 (my belief).

 

At the Chicago War Derby two weeks later Ogren entered two cars and both Henning and Mason had 7 inch stroke fours in the contest and I believe one was the iron four and one was another aluminum four. The Golden Sub also made its debut at the June 16 War Derby and attracted quite a bit of press. In the War Derby the highest finisher of the new 289 four Miller cars was Alley in 15th completing 105 laps (125 lap affair at the two mile board speedway-Maywood Illinois), Mason rocker arm trouble 76 laps; Oldfield 24 laps with a broken valve spring cup in the Sub; and Henning lasted 12 laps with a broken piston ring. All new engines have teething issues and these engines were no exception.

 

As to Michaux (and others such as Louis Verdet) he was a very credible engineer and his voiturette racers were quite successful. The three drivers Boillot, Goux and Zuccarelli all drove voiturette racers in 1909 and 1910. Zuccarelli had driven a Hispano-Suiza but both Goux and Boillot drove Lion-Peugeots designed by Michaux (and Verdet in some instances). Much credit has been given to these three drivers and Ernest Henry in designing the L76 Peugeot but of course when they sat down and drew up this design they more than likely relied to some extent on the voiturette racers. I believe Michaux may deserve a little more credit than history has afforded him.

 

Including a picture of Henry Juvanon's 1914 Grand Prix Schneider that retired in 26th place at Lyon with engine problems.

 

https://imageshack.com/i/p3S7oXWPj

[Michael Ferner]

For me, Frank Adamson is the big mystery person in the Miller story. He's ever present during Miller's dealings until about 1920, more often than not sharing the limelight, then he suddenly disappears. Both Mark Dees ("The Miller Dynasty") and Gordon White ("Offenhauser") show him holding (apparently) minor positions within the Miller and Offenhauser companies during the twenties and thirties, but I'm not sure it's the same person. And even if it was, why was he relegated, or did he "step down"? He may very well have been the early draftsman, replaced or perhaps relegated by the entry of Leo Goossen.

[Jim Dillon]

Michael not sure what to make of Adamson either. Once Goossen walked in the door I believe Adamson's stock went down a notch or two.

 

Just food for thought here is a patent drawing from Michaux's 1913 L-head with his very familiar valve closing mechanism. His 1914 engine was not all new to him but the way in which he mounted the valve mechanism was an evolution, I suppose.

 

https://imageshack.com/i/hj0soqXNj

Edited by Jim Dillon, 09 October 2015 - 23:45.

[robert dick]

Specifications - Astor Cup, 30 September 1916 (from The Automobile, 5 October 1916)


Specifications - Chicago Derby, 16 June 1917 (from The Automobile, 21 June 1917)



Is it correct that the iron four had a wet sump, while the aluminum engine had a dry sump?
 

[Jim Dillon]

Robert I have either heard or read that (in modern day accounts possibly) but cannot confirm it. What I can tell you is that the La Times (7/30/16,VI.p8) in regards to Alley's engine which Miller had been working on in secret for 7 months discussed the motor at some length and then went on to say "...feature of the motor is the scarcity of exposed parts...with no oil lines exposed...and 3 oiling systems, pump, spray and splash." Of course since this is an aluminum example built shortly after the iron engine I would assume that the iron engine was similar.

 

In regards to Ogren's iron engine Motor Age (9/28/16,p20) discussed some of the engine and the only reference I can confirm as to oiliing was "...all oil leads are cast in the crankcase and cylinder which eliminates pipe lines." The Automobile (9/28/16, p544) also had a similar article.

 

Also in regards to Ogren and his stable of racecars, keep in mind that one of his cars driven by Henning at Kalamazoo at the end of August in 1916 was damaged in the big wreck where the Sunbeam (Toodles V) was destroyed in the 10 car wreck. I am assuming it was one of his Duesenberg cars and am not sure of the extent of the damage but Ogren may have had one less 2nd string car to go to at about the same time as he was making the debut with his Miller engined car.

 

Thanks for posting the stat sheets for others to follow. Were it not for those stat sheets published in both Motor Age and The Automobile it would be much harder to figure out what these cars possibly had for powerplants. Even with them I make certain assumptions but without them pure speculation may be more common.

Edited by Jim Dillon, 10 October 2015 - 10:58.

[robert dick]

Another name involved in the Pan-American project: C. V. Morse:
(from Motor West, 1 March 1917, page 15)

Morse was general manager and vice-president of the Pan-American Co., and was formerly with Alco, Locomobile, Metzger, Interstate and EMF.
Most probably he was not directly involved in the design of the racing car chassis.

 

= = = =

Frank Adamson was in Indianapolis in May 1917, looking after the engine of Oldfield's Delage:
(from Motor West, 15 May 1917, page 8)

Would be interesting to know if Adamson worked in the Mais/Premier shop and if he also looked after the Premiers.
 

[ReWind]

For me, Frank Adamson is the big mystery person in the Miller story. He's ever present during Miller's dealings until about 1920, more often than not sharing the limelight, then he suddenly disappears. Both Mark Dees ("The Miller Dynasty") and Gordon White ("Offenhauser") show him holding (apparently) minor positions within the Miller and Offenhauser companies during the twenties and thirties, but I'm not sure it's the same person.

According to Michael Stucker Frank Milton Adamson “who worked for Harry Miller and Fred Offenhauser“ died on September 2, 1959, in Los Angeles. For that man an entry on FindAGrave exists which reveals that he was born in 1886.
If the middle initial of Frank A. Adamson is to believed then it would suggest that there were indeed two different engineers called Frank Adamson.

[robert dick]

I think Frank Milton Adamson is correct. Frank M. Adamson filed many patent applications with Miller:
for example http://www.google.co...tents/US1183221

or http://www.google.co...tents/US1231773

 

= = = =

 

Specifications - 150-miler, Omaha, 5 July 1917
(from The Automobile, 12 July 1917)


So the Miller Mfg. Co. completed four 300-inch 4-cylinder engines between August 1916 and June 1917,
1) Ogren/Otto Henning - first appearance in Astor Cup, Sheepshead Bay, New York, 30 September 1916;
2) Delage-Miller-Oldfield Special/Barney Oldfield - Universal Trophy, Uniontown, 10 May 1917;
3) Ogren/Jerry Mason - Chicago Derby, 16 June 1917;
4) Pan-American/Tom Alley - Chicago Derby, 16 June 1917;
and two complete cars:
5) Miller Special-Golden Submarine/Barney Oldfield - Chicago Derby, 16 June 1917;
6) Miller Special/Andy Burt - Omaha, 4 July 1917 - driven later in the 1917 season by Arthur Cadwell and Gil Anderson.
 

= = = =

 

Alley's Pan-American/150-miler Omaha (from Motor Age, 12 July 1917)

 

= = = =

 

Is it correct
- that in the "iron engine" this part

(= cylinder + cage carrying the 3 main bearings of the crankshaft in a single casting)
was made of cast iron, instead of Miller's alloyanum alloy;
- and that the cylinder head was in both cases detachable and made of alloyanum?
 

[Jim Dillon]

Robert, although I am sure some will disagree, I believe it is as you stated above; four engines and two complete cars. Although some look to Burman's cars and the Erbes I have never found anything that would indicate they had a Miller four. I have read an occasional statement that allude to the possibility of a Miller four, I have never found a stat sheet to back it up. I place a great deal of credence in the stat sheets like the ones you posted (right or wrong) and the only evidence I can find in those stat sheets (and others) are the 7" strokes of the four engines and two complete cars.

 

As to the blocks, I do believe all had detachable heads. As to the blocks, I have not seen a picture of just the bare block with the iron engine but it does have the barrel effect on the crankcase, although one obvious difference is the iron engine has the crankcase pan on the bottom. The iron engine though does have a side plate bearing the Miller name that is removable and the removable covers on the barrel shape lower end are radiused while the aluminum covers are more squared off on the corners on the aluminum version. The one picture in the magazines in 1917 with the rounded corners on the aluminum example I believe to be retouched. I believe the iron four was Miller's way of initially building an engine (and seeing firsthand of how it will all go together) but in typical Miller fashion, the alumiinum version was his way of going the extra mile to really clean up a design.

[robert dick]

Concerning Burman and Erbes:
- from Motor West, 15 June 1916, page 11


- from Motor West, 1 February 1917, page 18

= = = =
Specifications - Universal Trophy, Uniontown, 10 May 1917
(from Motor Age, 17 May 1917)


Specifications - 250-miler Cincinnati, 30 May 1917
(from Motor Age, 7 June 1917)


At Uniontown, the Erbes driven by Andy Burt was described with the bore x stroke dimensions of 3 5/8 x 7 1/8 inches, wheelbase 98 inches;
at Cincinnati, the cylinder dimensions were quoted as 3,638 x 7,125 inches.
Burt's Erbes was a combination of 300-inch Burman engine (= Peugeot copy by Miller/twin-camshaft head) with a 3-litre Peugeot frame (original wheelbase of the 3-litre Coupe de L'Auto Peugeot was 256 cm = 100,8 inches).

[Michael Ferner]

Burt's Erbes was a combination of 300-inch Burman engine (= Peugeot copy by Miller/twin-camshaft head) with a 3-litre Peugeot frame (original wheelbase of the 3-litre Coupe de L'Auto Peugeot was 256 cm = 100,8 inches).

Why do you think that? Pictures and specs tell another story. Are you perhaps confusing Resta's L45 Peugeot engine, that ended up in a Coupe de l'Auto frame?

[robert dick]

According to the specification sheets, the engine used in the Erbes had the bore and stroke dimensions of the Burman, and two overhead camshafts - for example explicitly mentioned in the Motor Age sheet for the September 1916 Astor Cup, where the Erbes was driven by Jack Gable.
The wheelbase of the frame was always quoted as 98 inches.
So my conclusion is a combination of Burman twin-cam engine with 3-litre Peugeot frame.

A combination of 4,5-litre Peugeot engine with 3-litre Peugeot frame was driven for example at Indianapolis in 1919 by Ray Howard, with a wheelbase in this case quoted as 100 inches.
 

[carl s]

Thanks to all of you for the valuable info, am slowly putting this evolution of Harry Miller activities in order and enjoying the struggle. Getting a basic grasp of the times and European based innovation in design sure helps in understanding the roots of Miller's interpretations and development.

It's amazing to me to see just how quickly engine technology developed in the early years and equally amazed at how quickly that info seems to have been transmitted across the Atlantic.

https://www.flickr.c...157649418541086

Edited by carl s, 21 October 2015 - 05:52.

[Jim Dillon]

Carl, thanks for starting the thread and hopefully moving the discussion about Harry Miller forward a bit more. There are a couple of mistakes I made in the AACA piece (mea culpa) and of course there is probably more to the Miller four than I have researched and written, but I was glad that I was able to include the name of Gratien Michaux to a more prominent stature (I hope). So much credit has been given to others for their contributions to the advancement of Miller/Offy and I think Michaux deserved at least a mention. The mistakes I know of are the mispelling of Ole Evinrude's name and also when I included the sketch of the valve mechanism in the first segment, relating to Peugeot and Sunbeam. I have since discovered (a couple of notables let me know) that the sketch as made back in the teens was in error and I reprinted it. Nevertheless, my point was that the Miller four valve gear was quite different from other valve gear and in actuality was very similar to Michaux and his 1914 GP Schneiders.

 

Robert the Flickr piece is a pretty good effort on your part and possibly more will see it and be able to appreciate the early Miller stuff. Thanks.

Edited by Jim Dillon, 21 October 2015 - 12:48.

[Michael Ferner]

According to the specification sheets, the engine used in the Erbes had the bore and stroke dimensions of the Burman, and two overhead camshafts - for example explicitly mentioned in the Motor Age sheet for the September 1916 Astor Cup, where the Erbes was driven by Jack Gable.
The wheelbase of the frame was always quoted as 98 inches.
So my conclusion is a combination of Burman twin-cam engine with 3-litre Peugeot frame.

A combination of 4,5-litre Peugeot engine with 3-litre Peugeot frame was driven for example at Indianapolis in 1919 by Ray Howard, with a wheelbase in this case quoted as 100 inches.

Yes, the Howard car had the engine from Resta's EX5/L45.

Regarding the Erbes Special, I am mainly questioning the use of a Coupe de l'Auto frame, although the engine was a repaired Peugeot, rather than a Peugeot copy, to my understanding. It was always my impression that the EX3 had a shorter wheelbase than the later model, and I took the 98 inches to refer to that. I can now find no sources listing its wheelbase other than your own splendid book about the Belle Epoque, where it is quoted as 270 cm (105.5"), the same as the EX5. But Pomeroy's Grand Prix Car lists the EX4/L3 wheelbase as a whopping 112 inches (285 cm) - now I'm confused!

[robert dick]

A misprint in Pomeroy's Grand Prix Car: It should be 8 feet and 4 inches instead of 9 feet and 4 inches.

[Michael Ferner]

That makes sense. However, what about the EX3? Pictures of the car in 1919 show it to have retained its original bodywork.

[Jim Dillon]

Michael and Robert, I have not researched the wheelbases of all the racecars of the era but have done some limited research. Is it commonly known that the 98" wheelbase chassis was in fact a Peugeot chassis? With Erbes and his association with car companies (Clarke-Carter and Mason and others I am sure) is it not possible this 98" wheelbase could have been fabricated? They rebuilt Burman's mount and is it possible that they built a new chassis, or even possible that Burman estate may have had various parts left over that Erbes may have taken control over?

[john medley]

Splendid stuff, gentlemen-- and important too. I for one had not previously noted the connections between Gratien Michaux and Miller.

I wonder if you and others would like to add info on the Delages then in the USA? They include the one that Oldfield later re-engined with a Miller 4, as well as the three brought in on behalf of Harry Harkness. And what happened to them after that?

[robert dick]

Jim,
I think the car entered as "Peugeot" and driven by Paul Harvey in the 1919 Elgin race was the renamed Erbes. This car used a Peugeot frame. That's why I have a tendency towards a Peugeot frame. This has to be discussed:

According to this report - from Motor Age, 7 September 1916

Louis Erbes entered two cars in the Harvest Auto Classic/Indianapolis/9 September 1916,
- the Burman = rebuilt/modified ex-5,6-litre Peugeot,
- and the Erbes = modelled after the Burman Special.
The cars did not start.
The Erbes appeared on 30 September 1916 at Sheepshead Bay, driven by Jack Gable.

The Burman based on the 5,6-litre Peugeot was burned in its garage at Sheepshead Bay in October 1915, then damaged in Burman's accident at Corona in April 1916, and finally in Gable's accident at Omaha in July 1916.
After the Omaha accident (from the Automobile, 20 July 1916):

The car was too damaged to be competitive after a repair. A car with cylinder dimensions and the wheelbase of the Burman did not reappear after the Omaha race.

The Erbes started for the first time in September 1916 and disappeared after 1917. The car had the cylinder dimensions of the Burman and a wheelbase of 98 inches.
Erbes, 250-miler Chicago, October 1916 (from Motor Age, 19 October 1916)

The Erbes reappeared as Peugeot at Elgin in 1919, driven by Paul Harvey.
 

[Jim Dillon]

Robert thanks for the reply.

 

I have more questions than answers about the Erbes Special that raced starting in 1916 and one of those questions was the peculiar frame dimension in an era where virtually all were longer. It does not seem that there would be too many spare Peugeot frames at this point with the great war in progress so either the 98" frame was a short wheelbase Peugeot (factory car) or the 98" frame was fabricated, I assumed. Fabricating a frame is a relatively easy thing to do and Burman/Miller/Erbes all had the contacts to fabricate one. I had wondered if the 98" frame had been something that Burman had in his inventory and that it was adapted when they built the Erbes Special. A lot of guesswork but figured you may have some research to back up that the 98" frame was more likely a factory piece.

 

John, I may have something in my files as to the fate of the Delages but nothing comes to mind right now. I have never researched the topic at length but I may have something on the topic and if I stumble on the answer I will try to fill in the blanks.

[john medley]

Jim, Robert, and all
I have no wish to take this thread off-topic ( and I am enjoying this discussion among serious historians), but I continue to wonder about those 1914 Grand Prix Delages. We do know that one of them received a Miller 4 engine, one of them was involved in Carl Limberg's fatal accident at Sheepshead Bay, and one of them ended up by early 1920s in Australia where it still lives.

[Jim Dillon]

John, sadly when I started researching the 300 inch era in earnest (circa 1982) I thought I would look up a few things here and there and got carried away. My filing system is poor to say the least as my research material grew quite large and to find items at a moments notice is a fools errand. I often try and figure out where the cars came from and ended up and may have something on Delages but finding it is easier said then done, since the topic is not at the top of any lists I may have. I have heard the references you make although I am not sure that Oldfield acquired his Delage from Harkness. My notes without digging too deep is that he acquired the car in July of 1915 through its purchaser David G Joyce. Oldfield registered the car himself early for the 1916 season (registration #2).

 

Harkness in 1916 registered four Delages. Three I believe were the 1914 GP cars (274.3cid) and the fourth was a 311.6 cid which I am not sure of its lineage to state it with any certainty. He also acquired the Peusun (parts of which exist today). I had heard that one Delage exists and thought I had heard Australia. I had thought two cars were destroyed in accidents but not sure of that and how seriously they were damaged. I would assume that some of these cars and/or parts thereof ended up in second tier racecars as they had value in those circuits as well. If that was the case they may have been used up and met the fate of so many other great racing engines sadly.

Edited by Jim Dillon, 23 October 2015 - 22:10.

[carl s]

John,

 

Sounds like the history of the four 1914 G.P. Delages could use a thread of their own – would be interesting to see where they went.

 

I have accumulated but a sliver of what you are looking for and that only concerning Oldfield’s Delage. Use this link to my album and under the photo are some comments by John Glenn Printz, (he believes the Delage was ‘given’ to Oldfield by Chicago Sportsman Dave Joyce), some articles on Oldfield and his Delage before and after the Miller four addition and his protégé Frank Elliott’s win with the same Miller Delage hybrid at The Sep 1917 Uniontown Event.

 

https://www.flickr.c...57649418541086/

[robert dick]

The Burman Special in which Gable had the accident at Omaha in July 1916 is also on the photo in Gordon Eliot White's Offenhauser book, page 23, with Eddie Arnet at the wheel and Fred Offenhauser in the mechanic's seat.
It is the car in which Burman had his accident at Corona in April 1916, but completely rebuilt. The radiator and the body are new. The radiator cowling and the upper part of the bonnet/hood are smoother (no edges) in comparison to the original Peugeot/Burman Special. The decoration/stripe bordering the different parts of the body was doubled (single stripe in case of the original Burman/Peugeot). So the photo of the Offenhauser book can be dated May/June 1916 when the car was rebuilt after the Corona accident and before the Omaha race.

New radiator and new body, Omaha, July 1916:

I couldn't find any photo or specification table showing this car in a race after July 1916.
 

[Jim Dillon]

Robert, the subject of the Burman Peugeot is a topic that I have not come to final conclusion, but I believe that Burman had two different Peugeot blocks that were different castings. The side plates on the two were not interchangable. I also believe there were two Peugeots and there are some that of course disagree with me. In 1916 Burman while alive registered his interchangeable liner Peugeot (registration #9) and later in the year the Burman Racing Co registered another car with a 292.9 engine (registration #170) that I believe was the second Peugeot engine as rebuilt by Miller (with the different side plates).That though is a whole other topic and since I have not finsihed my research it would be easy for me to stick my foot in my mouth at this time. I have studied the various pictures of the Peugeots that may have been associated with Burman and I believe there is different bodywork and different frames as well but that does not surprise me. I have an article from the period where Burman took two Peugeots to a meet in 1915 (although the second car's engine exceeded the AAA 300 cid limitation) and wanted to match race it. If that was the case, and if this other car became a part of Burman's stable of cars,  then Burman had some spare parts etc that may have been used to build the two 1916 cars registered and possibly some of the rebuilds that were necessary. I believe Erbes took possession of the remnants of Burman Racing Company in 1916 and what he did with the cars specifically is real conjecture. Hopefully more definitive research will come along that answers these questions.

[john medley]

Thank you.

I too noted the Oldfield car was "obtained" by " a Chicago sportsman Dave Joyce" and given July 1915 to Barney Oldfield who raced it from August 1915 to April 1917 when the Miller 4 replaced the Delage engine; I also have a note that says Oldfield's Delage had its Miller engine by November 1916. Some in Australia are of the belief that the Australian car may be the Oldfield car.

March 1915( or early 1916?) Carl Limberg went to France to buy for Harry Harkness his three Delages but died in the Sheepshead Bay event of May 1916. Jules Devigne, reportedly Harkness' French chauffeur drove another of the Harkness Delages, as did Jack LeCain. I also have Nicholas Dwick (or Zwick), Jim Meyer, and "Dutch" Thompson in Delages 1918, and Frank Elliott in the Oldfield car 1917 when Oldfield went to the Submarine

I have had the pleasure of examining the impressive engine internals of the Australian car.

[Jim Dillon]

John that is very interesting if you have studied the engine in the Austalian car Is the engine a 1914 GP Delage or a MIller four or what??? I am not sure that Oldfield had his Miller four in November of 1916 although he was supposed to have it by then (or at least he did not have an engine that was capable of performing on the track in late 1916). I believe that Miller had some problems and that most if not all of his aluminum four customers had to wait until some time in the spring of 1917 to actually receive the engines in a competitive form.

 

Harkness as the owner of Sheepshead wanted more racecars to fill the card as did most race track owners but in doing so he did purchase some pretty decent mounts.

[Jim Dillon]

Robert, I wanted to check my notes before commenting but I have several references to Paul Harvey driving the Burman Peugeot at both Elgin (6th) and Cinci (9th) in 1919. In Motor Age (8/28/19,p8) " ...Paul Harvey, a Chicago youngster who with Bob Burman's help built the Ford Special which he piloted to a win in the amateur Ford race on the Chicago Speedway...his car is the old Peugeot which had been driven by Bob Burman...dual cam". Somewhere I have a picture of the Ford and Harvey (and Burman if the story is to be believed) did the car up with the pinstripe to look similar to the Peugeot.

 

I believe the October 12, 1919 race that Harvey competed in at Cinci with Alley (6th), the rebodied Sub driven by Stein (7th), the second Miller car driven by Toft (8th), Harvey (9th) was the last race on the big stage for the Miller 300 racers he built. Kind of strange that all four finished together in a procession into history I suppose.

[john medley]

Jim Dillon
Thanks for your comments and information
The engine in the Delage I saw was the original not a Miller 4 . The car is most certainly 1914 GP Delage Type S

[robert dick]

Concerning Burman's Peugeot, Jack Gable and Paul Harvey:
Originally the Burman's Peugeot Special was a 5.6-liter factory Peugeot, modified - in comparison to the 1913 Grand Prix de l'ACF specification - by the factory for the 1914 Indianapolis 500, where it was driven by Jules Goux. Louis Erbes bought the car after the Indy race for Bob Burman. In December 1914/January 1915 the Peugeot was tired and had to be overhauled. It was completely rebuilt in the Miller shops, Los Angeles (Motor Age, 13 May 1915, page 22):

Burman had the possibility to use the old Peugeot block which was repaired in the original dimensions of 100 x 180 mm, 5.6 litres or 350 cubic inches, and two new blocks for the 300-inch formula in the dimensions of 93 x 180 mm or 3.65 x 7.10 inches.

In a 100-mile match race on 7 August 1915 on the Chicago/Maywood Speedway, Burman used his Peugeot Special in 350-inch form
(Motor Age, 29 July and 12 August 1915):


The sentence "... would permit him to drive his 350-inch Peugeot, ... and consequently Burman will drive his 300-inch car" is not really clear concerning the existence of two cars or two engines in the same chassis.

Jack Gable (Motor Age, 30 September 1915):


Paul Harvey's Ford Special (Motor Age, 14 September 1916):



Harvey at the wheel of his "Peugeot", Elgin 1919 (Chicago Historical Society):

[Jim Dillon]

Robert thanks for the articles and picture of the Harvey Ford and Peugeot as you saved me looking( plus my computer is still not right with loading pictures-it just gets me by-kind of).

 

You may have a point on the two engines in one car and I have thought about that but the article does not mention engine but uses the word car. If it was changing liners or engines that would make for a pretty good story, that most reporters would love to explore. I have worked on engines since I was a teenager and I am not sure I would want to change cylinder liners in the pits or even an unfamiliar shop in that period. Could be done I suppose but not real easy.

 

 I have read the article you posted and in a second article on the race (Motor Age 8/5/15,.p.14) it stated that Burman would be permitted to drive his 338 cid Peugeot in Saturdays race as the other drivers agreed. They said he was shipping the car for the event. i guess I am reading into it that he waited to see if he could run the 338cid car before shipping the eventual mount he would drive-my assumption. I have the original magazine article that has pictures of the event and the photos are grainy but I have looked at them with an eye loop and it appears that in the few pictures that Burman's car had a rear mounted spare and I cannot see the pinstripe. The ex Goux car that Burman drove at Indy in 1915 had the pinstripe and no rear mounted spare so it raises a question or two with me. I have scanned a closeup of the grainy picture of Burman on the track on the match race in quesion (Chicago August 7, 1915), which hopefully you will be able to make out whatever I am seeing.

 

As you may know, Rickenbacker in his autobiography claimed that he off loaded his Peugeot that he drove at Corona in late 1914 on to Harry Miller. If that was the case (although some argue that the car went back to Kaufman but I have not read an account from that period that such happened to that particular car- and I cannot imagine Rick being that off base, I suppose). If it happened there may have been a second Peugeot at Miller's shop in 1915.

 

In 1916 Burman registered his interchangeable liner car that was 347 cid and 294.2 cid (both cids listed in registration #9). Later in 1916 the Burman Racing Co. registered a Burman (registration #170-probably after Burman's death) with a 292.9 cid. Another Burman car was registered later in the year with a 449.4 cid registered by LC Erbes and this was Burman's older mount with the Wisconsin I presume that Burman claimed he was going to make into a second string car. These are what I believe the three Burman cars that were reported in the press as the three cars in his estate. The 292.9 car I am assuming is a second Peugeot but I admit that is an assumption.

 

I have studied the original Burman casting with the interchangeable liners and the side plate has a method of attachment that differs from the known picture of the Burman Peugeot with the hood up and the Burman name is different in size and shape. The size though of the letters is not that big of a deal but the number of bolts that attach the side plates and the location of those bolts (and the corresponding threaded holes in the blocks are not the same). I believe there were two different Peugeot castings.

 

All of this together leads me to believe there were two Peugeots but I also realize that better proof may come along that explains this all away and that is why I have said I have not come to a final conclusion.

 

Edited by Jim Dillon, 26 October 2015 - 15:08.

[Jim Dillon]

I tried loading the picture above without success. Will try again.