267 replies to this topic

[rallen]

Ok before I go any further can I just state - this is not about who was the BEST driver - just who were the quickest of their time. I enjoy the history of the sport (more than the present) and try and read as much as I can and pretty much everything I read will state that Villeneuve was the fastest driver of his era - and a little earlier it's Peterson.

 

So my question is this, presumably for each era there will be a driver or drivers that were regarded as the quickest or having natural speed - as all of this is before my time and I only have results and books to read - great as they are they don't really give you an indication of pace.

 

Perhaps we could break down each decade into three parts - early, mid and late and try and pencil in who the quickest were?

 

This I imagine will change - I was re-watching 'If you're not winning you're not trying' the other day and what came across (amongst other things!) is that Jody Sheckter seemed very very quick - is this actually a correct representation? Would we have him in as one of the fastest drivers of the early part of the decade (early 70's) but when he matured and changed his style would not be included in the column for late 70's?

 

The problem looking back at this sport if you were never there (born 1978!) is that speed is the one thing you can never really capture after the event. Unless people write about Ronnie or Gilles then they state matter of factly 'the quickest/fastest of their time.

[PlatenGlass]

On Peterson, he was slower than Andretti in 1978. It wasn't just a case of Peterson saying after you because he wasn't just sitting right behind him the whole time, although he may not have got the latest upgrades etc.

[E1pix]

I was asked this years ago, IIRC my Top 7 were:
1 -- Gilles Villeneuve (Duh!)
2 -- Ayrton Senna
3 -- Jimmy Clark
4 -- Niki Lauda
5 -- Jackie Stewart
6 -- Alain Prost
7 -- Michael Schumacher

Note all were from "my period," which started in the mid-'60s.

[Doug Nye]

It has always seemed to me that there have been remarkably few 'fastest' drivers - or standard-setters of their time - throughout the entire history of motor racing, although one must be very careful since it's obviously misleading to compare apples with Hoboken as in the world of road racing, compared to the world of oval-track racing.

 

For me, in road racing terms, the standard-setters - by whom others have judged their own performances - seem to me to have been:

 

1 - Leon Thery

2 - arguably David Bruce Brown

3 - Georges Boillot

4 - Antonio Ascari

5 - Robert Benoist

6 - Tazio Nuvolari

7 - Rudi Caracciola

8 - Bernd Rosemeyer

9 - Jean-Pierre Wimille

10 - Alberto Ascari

11- Jose Julio Fandango

12 - Stirling Moss

12B - Jim Clark

14 - Jackie Stewart

15 - arguably Ronnie Peterson

16 - Niki Lauda

17 - Alain Prost

18 - Ayrton Senna

19 - Michael Schumacher

20 - Fernando Alonso

21 - Sebastian Vettel

22 - Lewis Hamilton

 

A few reigned for years - others only briefly - several have overlapped - but regardless of equipment, class is permanent.

 

DCN

[plutoman]

I think Doug pretty much has it covered, but I have a slight issue with 1979-1981. True, Lauda raced to the end (nearly) of '79, and Prost appeared in F1 from the start of 1980, but Niki spent much of his last season struggling to contain Piquet (in his first full season), and the Prost of 1980 can hardly be seen as the standard bearer of the time, even in hindsight. The pace-setters of those seasons were Jones, Villeneuve, Piquet (and arguably Pironi in 1980), and there are sound arguments for all of them, but most would argue their place in the all-time list for one reason or another. Had Lauda not retired for two seasons, the list would be fair I think, but it depends on your definition of 'era'.

[PlatenGlass]

Since the early 80s when I started watching, I'd say that Senna took over from whoever was the quickest at the time, which was arguably one of Prost/Piquet/Rosberg. Then we move onto Schumacher. Hakkinen was obviously his rival for speed at times but only at times, and it's difficult to compare them directly. Then in more modern times, it's less clear-cut for me, with drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen (pre-2007 obviously), Vettel and even Trulli (if we're looking at outright speed in qualifying) all in the running at various times.

[Bloggsworth]

The problem with lists such as these is that seriously quick drivers may fall by the wayside owing to a lack of finishes (through no fault of their own) - Chris Amon to name but one...

[john aston]

The quickest drivers win races - by being quicker, and  for longer , than  the rest. This results almost in an inevitability about their wins , especially when they are in the best , or at least a sharp end of the grid car.Some drivers can be hugely quick but either flawed or just plain unlucky - and somtimes that lack of luck ultimately comes from personality traits more than pure chance.

 

Drivers in the former category are Prost, Stewart, Lauda, Schumacher,Vettel Clark .Andretti

In the latter, most notably in my era   are Amon, Villeneuve G. Peterson Patrese  and Jarier 

[Tim Murray]

I like Doug's selection, but I would add Pietro Bordino and Gilles Villeneuve to it.

[Roger Clark]

I think a case could be made for Hermann Lang after the death of Rosemeyer.

[Macca]

I'm amazed that Jochen Rindt's name hasn't appeared.

 

Paul M

[Eric Dunsdon]

When I were a lad learing about motor racing in  1950, my imagination was fired by a picture in The Motor magazine of Fangio in his 158 Alfa Romeo which described him as being 'The Fastest Driver In Europe'. That pretty much applied until his retirement in 1958 in my opinion, only Alberto Ascari being comparable. That was 'My Era' and others who stood out were Moss (of course), Behra and Castellotti.

 

Pre 1950's I would say Antonio Ascari (warned for being too fast at Monza!), Bordino (too often overlooked), Nuvolari, Varzi, Rosemeyer and Lang.

 

Post 1950's. Clark, Villeneuve (G), Pironi. Peterson, Belloff and Schumacher (M).

 

[Lee Nicolle]

Really, this is like how long is a piece of string.

There has been so many good drivers hampered by bad teams/ cars that have never shown their speed.

Others with the best cars that have made them look good. Look at Hamilton, undoubtedly very good and genuinely fast. But the fastest? Probably not. Best car yes.

Unless you put them all in the same car. Though some cars suit different drivers too ofcourse, there is many ways to achieve a fast lap time,, and yet more to achieve a fast race time too.

[rallen]

Thanks everyone - interesting reading. There have been a few mentions of Niki Lauda - but I have always read that he was noted for his technical ability, cunning and tactics rather than out an out speed. (such as his mid 70's dicing with Hunt in superior equipment) Certainly by his comeback he wasn't seen as quick as Watson was he? Or would mid 70's Lauda be in the list for fastest driver. but early and mid 80's he wouldn't be (like Sheckter later on in his career?

[rallen]

Lee I respectfully disagree - Gilles and Ronnie were never always in the best car but they were always viewed or referred to as 'the Fastest' someone else mention Amon but he always had car issues. I don't see why we can't converse and debate any aspect of racing if they are not in the same car.

 

I think its a bit like cricket - most teams have very good, fast bowlers but then you get chaps like Frank Tyson, Harold Larwood, Jeff Thompson who everyone knows are just that bit quicker. (doesn't mean they will take more wickets or be more disciplined!) 

[Charlieman]

Doug Nye, on 29 Oct 2015 - 18:18, said:

For me, in road racing terms, the standard-setters - by whom others have judged their own performances - seem to me to have been...

0 - Ferenc Szisz

 

Szisz won the first GP so by definition, he was the standard setter.

[Allan Lupton]

Charlieman, on 30 Oct 2015 - 13:54, said:

0 - Ferenc Szisz

 

Szisz won the first GP so by definition, he was the standard setter.

but Baras made fastest lap, so perhaps he was.

(and it was a standing lap, the first of the race!)

[Nick Wa]

There is no doubt Jose was quick.

 

I understand the definition below:-

fandango

fanˈdaŋɡəʊ/

noun

noun: fandango; plural noun: fandangoes; plural noun: fandangos

1.

a lively Spanish dance for two people, typically accompanied by castanets or tambourine.

 

Or is this a massive typo caused by mixing too much  Chianti with a few Rieslings. 

 

 

But who was Julio?

 

 

 

 

[Charlieman]

Allan Lupton, on 30 Oct 2015 - 14:39, said:

but Baras made fastest lap, so perhaps he was.

(and it was a standing lap, the first of the race!)

The first fake hare in GP racing?

[john aston]

Lauda is remembered as the shrewd old fox who won by stealth- and that is how he was in his l;atter years - look at 84 season as an example , But by then he had been in F1 on and off for 12 years. In his early years he was a shrewd young fox- but top drawer quick- see Silverstone 73 in BRM and the 312 years.    . And still the best gearchanger I have ever heard

[Paul Taylor]

This thread is a little Grand Prix/Eurocentric, surely something must be said of the American drivers... Rick Mears and A.J. Foyt?

[Tim Murray]

john aston, on 30 Oct 2015 - 18:08, said:

In his early years he was a shrewd young fox- but top drawer quick- see Silverstone 73 in BRM and the 312 years.

Indeed - 18 pole positions in 27 races during 1974/75 is not to be sniffed at.

[chr1s]

rallen, on 30 Oct 2015 - 13:02, said:

Thanks everyone - interesting reading. There have been a few mentions of Niki Lauda - but I have always read that he was noted for his technical ability, cunning and tactics rather than out an out speed. (such as his mid 70's dicing with Hunt in superior equipment) Certainly by his comeback he wasn't seen as quick as Watson was he? Or would mid 70's Lauda be in the list for fastest driver. but early and mid 80's he wouldn't be (like Sheckter later on in his career?

It's easy to forget just how quick Lauda was, yes he was noted for his technical ability and tactical mind but he had shear speed as well, his record of 9 pole positions in a season (74 and 75), which stood for many years, are testimony to that. Some of his victories were won by cunning and tactics,  but others like Holland 74 and France 75 he just disappeared into the distance.

[Collombin]

Nick Wa, on 30 Oct 2015 - 16:19, said:

But who was Julio?

Brother of Scaramouche Scaramouche William Ulysses Doothe.

[Glengavel]

Nick Wa, on 30 Oct 2015 - 16:19, said:

 

There is no doubt Jose was quick.

 

I understand the definition below:-

fandango

fanˈdaŋɡəʊ/

noun

noun: fandango; plural noun: fandangoes; plural noun: fandangos

1.

a lively Spanish dance for two people, typically accompanied by castanets or tambourine.

 

Or is this a massive typo caused by mixing too much  Chianti with a few Rieslings. 

 

 

But who was Julio?

 

 

 

 

 

Any relation to Carlos?

[PlatenGlass]

Lee Nicolle, on 30 Oct 2015 - 11:09, said:

Really, this is like how long is a piece of string.
There has been so many good drivers hampered by bad teams/ cars that have never shown their speed.
Others with the best cars that have made them look good. Look at Hamilton, undoubtedly very good and genuinely fast. But the fastest? Probably not. Best car yes.
Unless you put them all in the same car. Though some cars suit different drivers too ofcourse, there is many ways to achieve a fast lap time,, and yet more to achieve a fast race time too.

I think you're spot on with the different cars suiting different drivers comment. I think there is a view among some people that speed is some elemental thing that a driver just has or doesn't have. But it's clearly just as variable and dependent or circumstances as any other sort of skill.

[jcbc3]

Tim Murray, on 30 Oct 2015 - 07:42, said:

I like Doug's selection, but I would add Pietro Bordino and Gilles Villeneuve to it.

I beg to differ.....

This is part of a post I wrote some years ago on the subject of 'fastest qualifiers, where GV was put in 2nd place all time:

Quote

For fun I compared Scheckter and GV in 1979. GV outqualified JS 8-7. I then calculated their average gridposition which turned out to be 6.07 for JS and 5.07 for GV.

That surprised me, but I then noticed that if we leave out the last two GP's of the year (Canada and USA) which were held after Scheckter had clinched the championship (he qualified 9 and 16 as opposed to GV's 2 and 3) it turned out that until then Scheckters average gridposition was 5.08 and GV's 5.46.

Now, what is the distinguishing feature of GV's carreer was his unstinting commitment during the years his Ferraris were less than good. 1980 and 1981. However his team mates were in those years a disillusioned Jody Scheckter and a less than stellar Didier Pironi.

In 1978 when he was a rookie he was up against Reutemann who also knew how to pedal a car in qualifying. And GV was annihilated. 13-2 and 4.8 and 7.88 in average starting position.

Sorry, but in my book the evidence of GV being the second best one-lap driver just isn't there. He may have been spectacular. But that aint the same as being fast.

[Sisyphus]

john aston, on 30 Oct 2015 - 18:08, said:

Lauda is remembered as the shrewd old fox who won by stealth- and that is how he was in his l;atter years - look at 84 season as an example , But by then he had been in F1 on and off for 12 years. In his early years he was a shrewd young fox- but top drawer quick- see Silverstone 73 in BRM and the 312 years.    . And still the best gearchanger I have ever heard

Lauda may have been quick but the one I remember is Hunt in the 6 speed McLaren at the end of the straight hairpin at Long Beach.  I could not believe how fast he could come down through the gears not skipping any and never missing one that I heard.  I wasn't a super Hunt fan but that did impress me.

[E1pix]

Per rapid gear changes, Jean-Pierre Jarier was ridiculous -- whether in a F1 or Can-Am Shadow, the Can-Am Ferrari 712, or the Lotus 79. A click and an RPM change, it sounded like he used an automatic transmission.

Per Lauda, the man was so damned smooth he was actually boring to watch -- he looked SLOW. So mechanically consistent as to appear positively robotic. Only other driver ever striking me this way was Prost.

[Catalina Park]

Paul Taylor, on 30 Oct 2015 - 18:16, said:

This thread is a little Grand Prix/Eurocentric, surely something must be said of the American drivers... Rick Mears and A.J. Foyt?

Lloyd Ruby. His speed at Indy was always something else.

[GMACKIE]

And I vaguely remember an Australian by the name of Jack Brabhan winning a few World Championships by driving somewhat quickly.

[john aston]

Jarier's gearchanging was awful I thought- hopelessly mismatched revs . I remember standing at Copse and cringing every time he made another botch of dropping a gear in his Shadow. But his speed was never in doubt. Agree with jcbc3 re GV - amazing to watch but I thought he was  the most overrated GP driver in my 45 years of following the sport.

[kayemod]

john aston, on 31 Oct 2015 - 07:43, said:

Agree with jcbc3 re GV - amazing to watch but I thought he was  the most overrated GP driver in my 45 years of following the sport.

 

I agree with that, he was a circus act, not much more more. This is going to make me unpopular with some on here, but I never could see what all the fuss was about, and still can't.

[E1pix]

Ah, us GV fanatics are a (com)passionate bunch, we'll get over it.

McLaren's own site sees it like us, however:
http://www.mclaren.c...eneuve-what-if/

[Tim Murray]

I'm happy to go with DSJ on this. When he came to give a talk to our motor club in 1985, in response to the inevitable question he nominated Moss, Clark and Villeneuve as the three best he'd seen race.

[PCC]

Tim Murray, on 31 Oct 2015 - 21:02, said:

I'm happy to go with DSJ on this. When he came to give a talk to our motor club in 1985, in response to the inevitable question he nominated Moss, Clark and Villeneuve as the three best he'd seen race.

I'm with you, and Eric, and DSJ on this. Not to mention Jody Scheckter ("I believe he was the fastest racing driver the world has ever seen"), Keke Rosberg ("Gilles was a phenomenal driver – a giant of a driver"), Mario Andretti ("He had car control like no other"), Alan Jones ("...the best I ever raced against"), Harvey Postlethwaite ("...on a different plane from the other drivers"), Sid Watkins ("...a genius of a driver"), and Niki Lauda ("he had the best talent of all of us, no question"). Any one of them could be completely wrong, but do you really think all of them could be?

[JacnGille]

E1pix, on 31 Oct 2015 - 20:44, said:

Ah, us GV fanatics are a (com)passionate bunch, we'll get over it.

McLaren's own site sees it like us, however:
http://www.mclaren.c...eneuve-what-if/

Sing It Brother!

[JacnGille]

PCC, on 31 Oct 2015 - 21:31, said:

I'm with you, and Eric, and DSJ on this. Not to mention Jody Scheckter ("I believe he was the fastest racing driver the world has ever seen"), Keke Rosberg ("Gilles was a phenomenal driver – a giant of a driver"), Mario Andretti ("He had car control like no other"), Alan Jones ("...the best I ever raced against"), Harvey Postlethwaite ("...on a different plane from the other drivers"), Sid Watkins ("...a genius of a driver"), and Niki Lauda ("he had the best talent of all of us, no question"). Any one of them could be completely wrong, but do you really think all of them could be.

:-)

[scheivlak]

Paul Taylor, on 30 Oct 2015 - 18:16, said:

This thread is a little Grand Prix/Eurocentric, surely something must be said of the American drivers... 

 

Yes

 

Paul Taylor, on 30 Oct 2015 - 18:16, said:

Rick Mears and A.J. Foyt?

 

No.

[john aston]

E1pix, on 31 Oct 2015 - 20:44, said:

Ah, us GV fanatics are a (com)passionate bunch, we'll get over it.

McLaren's own site sees it like us, however:
http://www.mclaren.c...eneuve-what-if/

 Shame McLaren didn't keep him whe they could have done . He was one of the all time great drivers to watch but made too many mistakes  to be in the real pantheon - JImi Hendrix with a Ferrari not a Fender......  ;

[Michael Ferner]

Ha! I think I drew that Hendrix/Villeneuve analogy in an early post on this board fifteen years ago! It's a good one, isn't it?

[garoidb]

PCC, on 31 Oct 2015 - 21:31, said:

I'm with you, and Eric, and DSJ on this. Not to mention Jody Scheckter ("I believe he was the fastest racing driver the world has ever seen"), Keke Rosberg ("Gilles was a phenomenal driver – a giant of a driver"), Mario Andretti ("He had car control like no other"), Alan Jones ("...the best I ever raced against"), Harvey Postlethwaite ("...on a different plane from the other drivers"), Sid Watkins ("...a genius of a driver"), and Niki Lauda ("he had the best talent of all of us, no question"). Any one of them could be completely wrong, but do you really think all of them could be?

 

Wasn't Jody Scheckter speaking at Gilles' funeral when he (first) said that? Do most of those quotes derive from the months and years immediately following his death? I am sure all those drivers felt they could compete against Gilles with some cards in their hand. Generous tributes to a fallen colleague can be given in a most genuine way without necessarily telling the whole picture.

[kayemod]

john aston, on 01 Nov 2015 - 07:20, said:

 Shame McLaren didn't keep him whe they could have done . He was one of the all time great drivers to watch but made too many mistakes  to be in the real pantheon - JImi Hendrix with a Ferrari not a Fender......  ;

 

My view of Gilles was very similar to the one that DSJ had of Jochen Rindt up to the time he started to finish and win races, he thought his beard was safe. He admitted he'd been wrong as Jochen calmed down and matured though, so maybe I'd have been proved wrong in the same way if Gilles had lived longer, but at McLaren, Teddy Mayer wasn't much of a driver manager, he'd never had many unformed young talents to nurture, though of course that's not really a description that fitted GV. Like so many unfinished stories in motor racing, we'll never know what could have been, though if I'd been old enough to grow a beard at the time, I suspect it would have been fairly safe in Gilles' case. By saying that I'm not decrying the man's talents in any way, I just thought he was about as far as it was possible to get from a successful thinking driver like Alain Prost, who like him or not, just about everyone admires.

[PCC]

garoidb, on 01 Nov 2015 - 10:43, said:

Wasn't Jody Scheckter speaking at Gilles' funeral when he (first) said that? Do most of those quotes derive from the months and years immediately following his death? I am sure all those drivers felt they could compete against Gilles with some cards in their hand. Generous tributes to a fallen colleague can be given in a most genuine way without necessarily telling the whole picture.

Jody did say that at Gilles' funeral, although that's not the only time he said it.

 

I sometimes sense a tendency among GV's detractors to find excuses to discount contrary evidence - like analyzing his qualifying stats, but only considering his rookie and sophomore years (remember that this was an era when young boys couldn't do F1; it required some practice and experience to be good at it), and dismissing the rest of his career over which he outqualified his teammates 26-7. Sure, a single quote never tells the whole story, but look at that list of names. It's not a group of people who are timid about speaking their minds.

 

I actually think the Hendrix analogy is perfect. Unsurprisingly, I also think that Hendrix was the greatest rock/blues guitarist that ever lived. He was tapped into a motherload of creativity that put him on another plane from everyone else (and if I had to cite 'expert' testimony, I'd start with Eric Clapton and Paul McCartney). Sure, if he'd calmed down a bit he'd have lived longer, and made more money. But does anyone who loves music really wish that Jimi's career had been more like The Monkees? Does anyone who loves reading wish that Mervyn Peake had read Strunk and White? Similarly, many of us are grateful that GV was inspiring, rather than merely successful.

 

'Greatness' can be defined in many ways, depending on what values one brings to the subject at hand. I don't claim that my interpretation of the word is the one and only valid one. But I think a sport as electrifying as racing has room for it.

[john aston]

History tells us that Prost was the more succesful driver of course but I think even a parallel universe surviving GV would not have eclipsed Prost's achivements I'd suggest . But of course GV was mesmerisng to watch - as Jimi Hendrix was to hear .Even if sometimes you felt- just slow down a bit , you don't have to do pyrotechnics every second.  

[Eric Dunsdon]

john aston, on 01 Nov 2015 - 15:56, said:

History tells us that Prost was the more succesful driver of course but I think even a parallel universe surviving GV would not have eclipsed Prost's achivements I'd suggest . But of course GV was mesmerisng to watch - as Jimi Hendrix was to hear .Even if sometimes you felt- just slow down a bit , you don't have to do pyrotechnics every second.  

Like a lot of the topics discussed here, that Hendrix bloke is far too modern to me and pretty unbearable. Give me the 1950's and the sounds of Cliff Gallup,

Scotty Moore, James Burton , Frank Beecher and Roy Buchanan.

 

Hope this isnt too O.T.

[E1pix]

Justice:
-- Gilles gets dissed;
-- So we talk about Hendrix.

:-)

[jcbc3]

My point was most patently NOT to diss, Villeneuve. Rather puncture the myth surrounding him.

[kayemod]

jcbc3, on 01 Nov 2015 - 18:48, said:

My point was most patently NOT to diss, Villeneuve. Rather puncture the myth surrounding him.

 

Oui, moi aussi.

[GMACKIE]

kayemod, on 01 Nov 2015 - 19:26, said:

Oui, moi aussi.

Pommy, I would have thought...