195 replies to this topic

[Graham Gauld]

Just to be pedantic herewith the official air accident details :

september 10 1961

President flight from Shannon to Gander (!) at 03.55 am

DC6B Registration N90773

Took off in fog and crashed into the Shannon river.

Enquiry said that likely causes were problem with aircraft horizon and crew fatigue plus the bad weather.

[AAA-Eagle]

For those who haven't watched it yet, there will be a replay of Zwischen Rittergut und Rennstrecke on EinsExtra this night at 00.05 (CET).

[rx-guru]

Does anyone know anything about the connection of Castle (Schloss) Trips and the village of Tripsrath near Geilenkirchen with Wolfgang Graf Berghe von Trips?

http://www.web-toolb...rchen-trips.htm

[r.atlos]

Living not too far away from Castle Trips I may help you with some bits and pieces but it would need someone more interested in German nobility to put all this in the right context.

It all goes back to the Count Goswin Dukert von Berghe, mentioned for the first time 1190 in the "nobility calendar of Gotha" as living in Brabant. The name "Dukert" was dropped for his children who were now only called "von Berghe".

In 1446, Wilhelm von Berghe acquired Castle Trips resulting in his children bearing now the name "Berghe von Trips zu Trips". Details can be found here: http://www.herrlichk...dschau_2007.pdf

The story given by Wikipedia is a bit more confusing (see: http://de.wikipedia....wiki/Burg_Trips ) but bottom line in both cases seems to be that the family of Wolfgang Graf Berghe von Trips (zu Hemmersbach) has been a side line of this original von Berghe family.

As I said: Something for nobility specialists to sort out.


PS: You will also find in the Ossenberg article that Clemens Graf Berghe von Trips adopted in 1988 his grand-niece Karen von Brauchitsch, Gräfin Berghe von Trips who is now living in Castle Ossenberg. This reminds me that one line of the von Brauchitch family is living in Castle Rimburg since around 1900 - just a few kilometers away from Castle Trips. Rimburg is a wonderful example of what state borders can do to historically grown regions: The Castle is now situated in Germany (in the community of Übach-Palenberg), separated from Rimburg village (now in the Netherlands) only by a small bridge over River Wurm.

[rx-guru]

Thanx Lutz! As Doveren (since 1972 part of Hückelhoven) is my hometown I used to live even closer to Castle Trips but did not know its connection to Wolfgang von Trips – so far. Understand now that his name is definitely bound to Castle Trips, although his lineages home was Castle Hemmersbach.

[cannell]

I'm trying to research the bio and histor of wolfgang von trips. As many of you know, he died in 1961, the year Phil Hill won the GP championship. Anybody got anything on him?

[Ray Bell]

If you click on 'Search BB' (see it in this pic... right at the top right corner) you'll find twelve previous threads...



If you search with 'search posts' clicked, you'll find many more references, I'm sure.

[Twin Window]

Thanks, Raymondo...

[Bjorn Kjer]

von Trips fans , please have a look at "Identification help needed" thread : von Trips picture from Nurburgring , but when ?

[raceannouncer2003]

Sunday was the 50th anniversary of Wolfgang von Trips' victory in the 1961 Dutch GP. At Monterey a few years ago, Phil Hill signed a Michael Turner print of that race for me. He said "That's Taffy!", but I pointed out Hill's car behind von Trips.

Vince H.

[Richard Jenkins]

I feel this one has been discussed before, but can anyone confirm his place of birth - possibly via the Von Trips museum?

I am sure it was Cologne, then shifted, but it seems to have gone back to Cologne. Here's the email I had from John Siscoe, one of the more diligent contributors to WATN;

I've been noticing that a growing number of German sites list Von Trips' birthplace as Cologne. At least three made me pause:The death notice card sent out by Trips' parents. (maranellomerchandise.com) A mistake? Possibly so, but an odd one to make in September 1961, in a notice sent under the parent's names.An article on Von Trips in Internet Portal Rheinische Geschicte, which further adds that the family moved to Burg Hemmersbach, Horrem, in 1932, when Wolfgang was four. Again, they may be wrong, but anyone who knows that Thessa von Trips' real name was Joanna gets my attention.A tantalizing mention in a site I couldn't fully open (www.wdr.de):"Wolfgang Graf Berghe von Trips wurde am 4 Mai im Kolner Antonius-Hospital geboren." Now that's getting specific.(There is a St. Antonius Hospital in Cologne). Is he making it up? It's happened.The people at the Trips Villa Museum could clear this up, but they don't have an e/address. Do you know anyone in Germany who could give them a call?

[D-Type]

For what it's worth, both Steve Small and Peter Higham have "Horrem near Cologne" but they may have worked from the same source.

[Tim Murray]

The Villa Trips Museum has a website. Here's the 'Contact' page, which includes an email address (plus telephone and fax nos):

http://www.automobil...ssum/index.html

[RStock]

For what it's worth, both Steve Small and Peter Higham have "Horrem near Cologne" but they may have worked from the same source.

I've seen Kerpen-Horrem given as a place of birth for Taffy

Edited by REDARMYSOJA, 24 September 2011 - 01:13.

[rudi]

I've seen Kerpen-Horrem given as a place of birth for Taffy

Born in St Antonius Hospital Köln.

[Richard Jenkins]

Cheers all - still pretty indecisive. We'll give them a try.

[ChrisJson]

In Sweden the place of birth is the place where your
parents live not the hospital you are born in.

Perhaps the same applies to Germany.


Christer

[rudi]

In Sweden the place of birth is the place where your
parents live not the hospital you are born in.

Perhaps the same applies to Germany.


Christer

At the time, in 1228, the von Trips family lived in Bonn, they settled only in 1932 in the Hemmersbach castle.

[uechtel]

In Sweden the place of birth is the place where your
parents live not the hospital you are born in.

Perhaps the same applies to Germany.


Christer

No, the place where I was born is my birthplace.

[arttidesco]

I was born in Velbert had a UK birth certificate issued in Duesseldorf and in my first two passports my place of birth was given as Dusseldorf

An error corrected on my more recent passports

Official documents are only as good as the bureaucrats filling in the details

[Arese]

The book "Graf Berghe von Trips, eine deutsche Rennfahrerkarriere" by Jörg-Thomas Födisch and Reinold Louis depicts the original birth notice on page 11. The notice is issued "Bonn a/Rh., 4. Mai 1928, z.Zt. Köln, Antonius-Hospital". ("z.Zt." = "at present").

[gillesthegenius]

With hardly any written or visual material about the German legend Wolfgang von Tripps, who was on the cusps of becoming a World Champion when he met his untimely death, its very hard for guys like me who would like to know about him to get any idea about him.

So I would greatly appreciate it if any folks out here who saw him in action or heard about his exploits could share their stories with us.

I would also like to know...
How good he was?
How well he compares against other greats of the sport?
What his driving style and attitude was like?
What were his strengths and weakenesses?

Thank you.
Regards gillesthegenius.

[Bloggsworth]

Pretty average.

[JoBo]

With hardly any written or visual material about the German legend Wolfgang von Tripps, who was on the cusps of becoming a World Champion when he met his untimely death, its very hard for guys like me who would like to know about him to get any idea about him.

So I would greatly appreciate it if any folks out here who saw him in action or heard about his exploits could share their stories with us.

I would also like to know...
How good he was?
How well he compares against other greats of the sport?
What his driving style and attitude was like?
What were his strengths and weakenesses?

Thank you.
Regards gillesthegenius.

My father knew him well. He always told that Taffy was a very charming character.
For sure he was not such a driver like Fangio who could everyone or Moss, who was totally dedicated to the job. Also Taffy was not much hard on the cars (despite his crashes in the earlier days of his career).

JoBo

[pilota]

Pretty average.

Considering that he was leading the 1961 world championship before Monza, then Phil Hill must have been pretty average as well. Romolo Tavoni (Ferrari's team manager at the time) referred to Phil Hill and Von Trips as "two outstanding drivers" (see interview in Nov 2011 Motor Sport)
Nathan

[D-Type]

gillesthegenius,
Have you read the previous threads on von Trips?. A quick "SEARCH" for von trips turned up {amongst others] these two threads Trips, Ronnie and Phil ... and Wolfgang 'Taffy' von Trips which will give you some idea of views of people on this forum.

In answer to your particular question: by the time of his death he was 33 years old; although he had been racing for about 10 years, 1961 was only his second full season of Grand Prix racing; he had been on the Ferrari driver strength for some years but Ferrari seemed to consider him primarily as a sports car driver. At the start of the Italian GP he had won races and was leading the Championship from Phil Hill by 3 points. He had a reputation for occasional 'wild' driving but had steadied down by 1961.

How good was he? Good enough to be in the Ferrari GP team, good enough win a GP, good enough to win a single World Championship if the cards fell right, but not good enough to be a multiple world champion. Good not great, but better than a 'jouneyman driver' and better than average.

[ensign14]

Good enough to come within a team order of winning the Mille Miglia in 1957 as well; gentlemanly enough never to let on.

[taylov]

Considering that he was leading the 1961 world championship before Monza, then Phil Hill must have been pretty average as well. Romolo Tavoni (Ferrari's team manager at the time) referred to Phil Hill and Von Trips as "two outstanding drivers" (see interview in Nov 2011 Motor Sport)
Nathan

i always felt that Trips was one of the hardest drivers to rate. His two seasons in Grand Prix racing saw him driving the worst car of 1960 and the best car of 1961.

If one ignores the 1960 Italian GP won by Phil Hill in a race boycotted by most British entries (and in which Trips drove a F2 Ferrari), the German actually scored more points in more races that year than his team mate.

In 1961, a total contrast with the Ferrari 156 winning 5 out of the 7 Grands Prix entered, with the points score 33 to 29 in Trips' favour going into the Monza race.

Tony

[gillesthegenius]

gillesthegenius,
Have you read the previous threads on von Trips?. A quick "SEARCH" for von trips turned up {amongst others] these two threads Trips, Ronnie and Phil ... and Wolfgang 'Taffy' von Trips which will give you some idea of views of people on this forum.

In answer to your particular question: by the time of his death he was 33 years old; although he had been racing for about 10 years, 1961 was only his second full season of Grand Prix racing; he had been on the Ferrari driver strength for some years but Ferrari seemed to consider him primarily as a sports car driver. At the start of the Italian GP he had won races and was leading the Championship from Phil Hill by 3 points. He had a reputation for occasional 'wild' driving but had steadied down by 1961.

How good was he? Good enough to be in the Ferrari GP team, good enough win a GP, good enough to win a single World Championship if the cards fell right, but not good enough to be a multiple world champion. Good not great, but better than a 'jouneyman driver' and better than average.

Thanks for the links. Were very informative and interesting.

But I have one question though. If he was good but not great, why do people refer to him as a 'German Legend'?

[gillesthegenius]

i always felt that Trips was one of the hardest drivers to rate. His two seasons in Grand Prix racing saw him driving the worst car of 1960 and the best car of 1961.

If one ignores the 1960 Italian GP won by Phil Hill in a race boycotted by most British entries (and in which Trips drove a F2 Ferrari), the German actually scored more points in more races that year than his team mate.

In 1961, a total contrast with the Ferrari 156 winning 5 out of the 7 Grands Prix entered, with the points score 33 to 29 in Trips' favour going into the Monza race.

Tony

Hmmm... Thats interesting.

[Allan Lupton]

But I have one question though. If he was good but not great, why do people refer to him as a 'German Legend'?

Depends on who "people" are of course.
One can easily construct a "legend" around the unfulfilled career of one who died before his peak, and anyway German Grand prix drivers were not as common in his time as they have been more recently.

[Roger Clark]

He had a reputation for occasional 'wild' driving but had steadied down by 1961.

I've asked before: what was the basis for this reputation and what is the contemporary evidence?

[Bloggsworth]

Considering that he was leading the 1961 world championship before Monza, then Phil Hill must have been pretty average as well. Romolo Tavoni (Ferrari's team manager at the time) referred to Phil Hill and Von Trips as "two outstanding drivers" (see interview in Nov 2011 Motor Sport)
Nathan

Phil Hill was also pretty average. The only year Von Trips and Hill were remotely competetive (As opposed to having a car which lasted till the end of the race) was in 1961, when the car they drove was so much more powerful than anything else a nonentity called Giancarlo Baghetti won the first 3 Formula One races he drove in. All 3 were journeyman drivers in a car which would have had Moss or Clark lapping the field. They were all gentlemen and conducted themselves in an exemplary manner, but Hill was an accidental World Champion.

[Michael Ferner]

How good was he? A little bit better than Villeneuve, but not really outstanding.

Why was he refered to as a "German legend"? Because, like Canada, Germany didn't have any outstanding drivers in period.

[D-Type]

I've asked before: what was the basis for this reputation and what is the contemporary evidence?

It's what I've read. Maybe based on
In GPs
Monza 1956 - crashed in practice (not his fault as the steering failed)
Monza 1958 - collided with Harry Schell's BRM on lap 1
Monaco 1959 - spun eliminating himself, Clff Allison's F2 Ferrari and Bruce Halfords F2 Lotus
In sports cars
Sweden 1955 - crashed (300SL)
Mille Miglia 1956 - crashed (300SL)

In looking these up I was surprised with how often he finished sports car races either "on the podium" or "in the points" so perhaps the reputation is not justified.

Edited by D-Type, 06 October 2011 - 22:32.

[Roger Clark]

There was also the Nurburgring 1,000kms in 1957 when he crashed in practice, apparently because he confused the pedal positions of the GT and Sports Ferrari. Ferrari blamed him initially for the 1956 Italian Grand Prix crash but had to admit later that the suspension had broken, probably because it wasn't strong enough to withstand the banking.

I don't think this is enough to justify a crashing reputation and as you say, his finishing record was very good. I was, however, also interested in any evidence that he was regarded as a crasher by his contemporaries, because I've never seen it.

[E1pix]

How good was he? A little bit better than Villeneuve, but not really outstanding.

Them's fightin' words!

[D-Type]

While we're talking about von Trips (well, I am, at least), I remembered that I was curious about the origin of his nickname, "Taffy." I'm sure someone here knows about it.

Dave

It certainly came from Mike Hawthorn and possibly Peter Collins. I have read the "because he looked like a Taffy" before. I have also read that it came from his pronouncing of toffee as "taffee". After 50 years, who knows?

[Doug Nye]

Phil Hill was also pretty average. The only year Von Trips and Hill were remotely competetive (As opposed to having a car which lasted till the end of the race) was in 1961, when the car they drove was so much more powerful than anything else a nonentity called Giancarlo Baghetti won the first 3 Formula One races he drove in. All 3 were journeyman drivers in a car which would have had Moss or Clark lapping the field. They were all gentlemen and conducted themselves in an exemplary manner, but Hill was an accidental World Champion.

I will declare a partiality but the above - sadly - is ALMOST complete b*6$$@s. "Pretty average" drivers did not in that era set fastest laps and deny crucial Championship points to the likes of Moss and Brooks in Vanwall cars. Nor did they win multiple Le Mans 24-Hour races, Buenos Aires 1,000Kms races, Sebring 12-Hours and ADAC 1,000Kms. Nor did they imbue such trust and respect that they led the Porsche factory team, or won the (admittedly capricious) support of Mr Ferrari, and perhaps more significantly of the Maranello mechanics and engineers. Nor was Baghetti a "nonentity" - albeit perhaps a later luckless dilettante. The point about the potential of Moss or Clark driving the 1961 Formula 1 Ferraris might have merit - but there is a world of difference between not being able to match such Gods per se, and being "pretty average". That blunt statement is inaccurate and unfair, and too flattering to the brigade of genuinely "pretty average" drivers who would in period have given anything to be able to match the abilities of Trips and Hill...since they could not.

DCN

[Jack-the-Lad]

^

Thank you, Doug.

Jack

Edited by Jack-the-Lad, 06 October 2011 - 23:21.

[Oleksij Hrushko]

I think not http://forums.autosp...&threadid=76852

 

After the changes in forum engine the links are not working properly. Can anybody provide the correct link of this thread on von Trips myth about plane crash? Thanks.

[Collombin]

I don't think the downgrade can be blamed (for once). The topic has just been merged, that's all.

 

Start at post 27 of this thread.

[Oleksij Hrushko]

I don't think the downgrade can be blamed (for once). The topic has just been merged, that's all.

 

Start at post 27 of this thread.

 

Thanks!

[Paulleek]

At the end of Chris Rea's "La Passione" they use a great piece of film of Von Trips at Monza in (I think0 a Porsche 718 - camera mounted in front of the driver facing him. The closing titles are superimposed.

 

Does anyone know if the full version of that original piece of film is available elsewhere in DVD or other digital form?

[Dave Ware]

There was also the Nurburgring 1,000kms in 1957 when he crashed in practice, apparently because he confused the pedal positions of the GT and Sports Ferrari.

 

Now I remember an interview with Von Trips on the Sounds of Sebring 1958 recording.  He didn't care whether he had left-hand or right-hand drive, as long as the accelerator was in the middle, between the clutch and brake.  He said something to the effect that he was used to that and didn't want it the other way around.

 

However Hawthorne said something to the effect that he had one of the left-hand drives...unfortunately.

 

(Must find that recording.  I have a cassette tape of it that I made off of the library's copy of the 33rpm vinyl.  Listened to it quite a lot in the pre-cable, pre-internet days.  Or just buy one on Amazon...)

Edited by Dave Ware, 01 December 2014 - 22:54.

[raceannouncer2003]

You can hear Sounds of Sebring 1957 at this link:

 

http://www.scottgrun...ing-1957-audio/

 

There is an interview with von Trips there too.  He spoke very good English.  His voice reminded me somewhat of Michael Schumacher.

 

Vince H.