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Roborace - Driverless Formula E support series


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#801 superden

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 12:42

If people want to watch it, fair enough. If people want to call it sport, fair enough. I'd rather darn socks or watch Dulux dry, but to each their own and all that.

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#802 spacekid

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 18:35

Anyone watching F1 thinking it is 'sport' as argued above is deluding themselves. It's a competition between makers of racing cars, the driver is the least important performance differentiator.

In any case, the origins of motor 'sport' are in people wanting to compete their machines against one another. This helped drive the technologies forward. If people were entertained watching the competitors that was by the by. It was only later that the whole thing was set up specifically to entertain an audience.

I'd of thought creating a competition to drive forward automotive technology is very much in the original spirit of motor 'sport', although I get why people aren't interested in watching it. Don't worry, it won't be compulsory.

#803 Ben1445

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 20:10

Anyone watching F1 thinking it is 'sport' as argued above is deluding themselves. It's a competition between makers of racing cars, the driver is the least important performance differentiator.

In any case, the origins of motor 'sport' are in people wanting to compete their machines against one another. This helped drive the technologies forward. If people were entertained watching the competitors that was by the by. It was only later that the whole thing was set up specifically to entertain an audience.

I'd of thought creating a competition to drive forward automotive technology is very much in the original spirit of motor 'sport', although I get why people aren't interested in watching it. Don't worry, it won't be compulsory.

Fully agree. 

 

Only way I can see this becoming interesting to a wider audience is if they start some sort of racing spectacle in extreme conditions and at speeds that are simply unimaginable for human competitors... but it's a very very very long shot. 



#804 PiperPa42

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 20:17

I'd of thought creating a competition to drive forward automotive technology is very much in the original spirit of motor 'sport', although I get why people aren't interested in watching it. Don't worry, it won't be compulsory.

You just wait and see. In season three, every F1 fan not watching will be rounded up and made to watch Roborace.
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#805 djparky

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 17:51

This must be fantastic for the FIA- they could expand this to F1 and remove all risk for the driver altogether- they can stay in the pits wrapped up in cotton wool

#806 fer312t

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 10:03

Anyone watching F1 thinking it is 'sport' as argued above is deluding themselves. It's a competition between makers of racing cars, the driver is the least important performance differentiator.

In any case, the origins of motor 'sport' are in people wanting to compete their machines against one another. This helped drive the technologies forward. If people were entertained watching the competitors that was by the by. It was only later that the whole thing was set up specifically to entertain an audience.

I'd of thought creating a competition to drive forward automotive technology is very much in the original spirit of motor 'sport', although I get why people aren't interested in watching it. Don't worry, it won't be compulsory.

 

It's not a 'sport', it's a technical exercise :wave:



#807 PayasYouRace

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 10:45

I've just realised that the majority of the discussion has gone off topic. I've moved the road car side of things to the relevant thread in the Technical Forum: http://forums.autosp...lifornia-sorry/



#808 johnmhinds

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 13:49

https://twitter.com/...006240267567105

 

Some onboard footage from a testing run.



#809 maximilian

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 14:21

Oh boy  :lol:

 

Good to know it can run on a WIDE OPEN HUGE paved area.   ;)

 

Is that the camera wiggling around for no reason, or does this thing not even run a straight line correctly?  :lol:



#810 phrank

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 14:32

Looking good, hope we can see some new live demos sooner. This is actually the automotive future, autonomous driving, more relevant than FE, and better looking too.



#811 PayasYouRace

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 14:48

Autonomous driving and electric propulsion are two different things.



#812 phrank

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 14:49

And Roborace has both!



#813 BRG

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 18:39

And Roborace has both!

...but not yet very convincingly.



#814 phrank

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 19:52

...but not yet very convincingly.

I must admid I am bit disappointed in their speed of development, think they only did one public run with the proper car yet and it almost crashed? 



#815 maximilian

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Posted 06 March 2018 - 19:55

I must admid I am bit disappointed in their speed of development, think they only did one public run with the proper car yet and it almost crashed? 

 

Yeah, that whole process has been a farce.  I hear it was still quicker than Carmen Jorda, though.   ;)



#816 phrank

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 09:29

The car ran at Goodwood and is about to do a run again later today.

 

https://www.motorspo...session-111808/

 

Good to see this still alive and progressing 



#817 Kalmake

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 10:55

Pathetic pedestrian run. That wasn't motor sport.



#818 ANF

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 11:09



#819 Fatgadget

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 11:21

Anyone see a Deep Blue vs Human chess like scenario in the not too distant future?.....I am and looking forward to it! :D



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#820 purpleturtle

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 11:29

Anyone see a Deep Blue vs Human chess like scenario in the not too distant future?.....I am and looking forward to it! :D

 

Chess is limited by memory and intellectual speed where computers excel. Racing on the other hand is limited by grip. 

Robocars will be fastest, but it won't change lap-times dramatically.



#821 GhostR

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 11:48

Oh boy  :lol:

 

Good to know it can run on a WIDE OPEN HUGE paved area.   ;)

 

Is that the camera wiggling around for no reason, or does this thing not even run a straight line correctly?  :lol:

 

From the above, to the below, in 4 months...

 

 

And yet we still get the below:

 

Pathetic pedestrian run. That wasn't motor sport.

 

Seriously ... stop expecting it to instantly be a compelling "motorsport" entertainment package. F1 in it's infancy, compared to today, could be described as "pathetic" and "pedestrian" as well (we all know it wasn't, as the racing back then could only be compared against ... well, not much. Horse and cart?). Every technological leap forward has to start somewhere, and those starts are rarely an instant success; especially when you're talking something as complicated as what Roborace is trying to achieve, and that they're doing it in a world where the benchmark isn't a horse and cart but a fully-developed, mega expensive F1 car.


Edited by GhostR, 13 July 2018 - 11:49.


#822 l2k2

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 11:51

Anyone see a Deep Blue vs Human chess like scenario in the not too distant future?.....I am and looking forward to it! :D


Hmm.. a scenario in which they first lose in a spectacular fashion (in a best out of six races season, all races ran on the same track*). The human finds a silly way to exploit the robot when braking into T1 after the first race**... And, will win or tie all but the first round of the season.

Then, they allow other top human drivers to teach the robot how to defend in T1 on that particular track. Arrange a new competition, where they all-of-a-sudden blatantly favour the machine (let's say that all six races are run back-to-back, though it's not a perfect analogue***). They win with the smallest possible margin, 3.5 points to 2.5 points****.

Finally, they refuse to rematch the human in a fair race with normal rules, and retire the winning “undefeated” robot to their museum.. never to be raced again... ;-)


Then, half a decade later, robots regularly beat the top human in not-rigged matches. But, the big audience does no longer care... As all they were interested in was the PR stunt for the first defeat.

– –

* There are different variations to chess, mostly with the allowed time per turn. The speedplay variants have very different playing strategies. I chose the racetrack as the analogue.

** Like in the match of 1996.

*** But apparently quite close. I'm not sure if they also allowed different amounts of time per turn than in most typical tournament rules, see point *.

**** The famous 1997 game, yes. IBM did not quite highlight the actual outcome... And, the last part is also from reality.

#823 Clatter

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 12:17

Pathetic pedestrian run. That wasn't motor sport.

Motor racing was even slower when it first started. They are on a learning curve and will get faster.

#824 Clatter

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 12:19

From the above, to the below, in 4 months...


And yet we still get the below:


Seriously ... stop expecting it to instantly be a compelling "motorsport" entertainment package. F1 in it's infancy, compared to today, could be described as "pathetic" and "pedestrian" as well (we all know it wasn't, as the racing back then could only be compared against ... well, not much. Horse and cart?). Every technological leap forward has to start somewhere, and those starts are rarely an instant success; especially when you're talking something as complicated as what Roborace is trying to achieve, and that they're doing it in a world where the benchmark isn't a horse and cart but a fully-developed, mega expensive F1 car.

Spot on, and not forgetting that they won't have anywhere near the budget of the racing teams.

#825 maximilian

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 12:43

Looks a bit better, although super careful around the corners.

 

Track records for autonomous vehicles is gonna be a thing - would this be the first such vehicle to run at Goodwood?



#826 GhostR

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 12:44

Looks a bit better, although super careful around the corners.

 

Track records for autonomous vehicles is gonna be a thing - would this be the first such vehicle to run at Goodwood?

 

Yes. They now own the record for being first autonomous vehicle to run at Goodwood, as well as fastest (until someone else has a go and can do better - which *will* happen).


Edited by GhostR, 13 July 2018 - 12:52.


#827 phrank

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 12:54

I am sure there is also a safety aspect to it why it travels at the speed it does, with the spectators only protected by hay bales



#828 Fatgadget

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 20:16

I am sure there is also a safety aspect to it why it travels at the speed it does, with the spectators only protected by hay bales

Well, These things have safety systems like there is no other.Should something fail,fail safe system kicks in instantly.



#829 Fatgadget

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 20:33

Chess is limited by memory and intellectual speed where computers excel. Racing on the other hand is limited by grip. 

Robocars will be fastest, but it won't change lap-times dramatically.

I'd like to see that hypothesis proven in reality..I'm sure you too!....Cant wait..Alonso,Hamilton,Vettel,Verstappern vs Robocar!



#830 Clatter

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 20:52

Well, These things have safety systems like there is no other.Should something fail,fail safe system kicks in instantly.

That's fine if a component fails, but are you expecting it to go into fail safe mode when it loses grip at speed?

#831 Spillage

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 21:13

Looks slow as hell, to be honest.



#832 maximilian

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 21:18

What was the actual recorded time?



#833 Fatgadget

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 21:31

If people want to watch it, fair enough. If people want to call it sport, fair enough. I'd rather darn socks or watch Dulux dry, but to each their own and all that.

Who cares?



#834 SmallHorsey

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 21:38

Has there been a human driver go around in the equivalent car?

#835 Fatgadget

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 21:38

That's fine if a component fails, but are you expecting it to go into fail safe mode when it loses grip at speed?

Why not? Loosing grip and or traction would be one of the criterias programmed into the plethora of  algorithms how the robocar behaves/reacts in the aftermath   -no?



#836 Clatter

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 22:00

Why not? Loosing grip and or traction would be one of the criterias programmed into the plethora of algorithms how the robocar behaves/reacts in the aftermath -no?

Behaves yes, but if you think they are going to shut down everytime it loses grip then there would be no chance of racing.

#837 l2k2

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 22:30

Has there been a human driver go around in the equivalent car?


I don't know about this time, but in all previous showings, the human drivers have been much faster than the AI. Like more than 10 seconds per lap, despite them apparently running much heavier car (as the lack of driver does not appear to be compensated for).

Based on that, and the visually slow driving in the video, I would say that even amateur humans would annihilate that AI.

#838 ANF

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Posted 13 July 2018 - 23:11

Has there been a human driver go around in the equivalent car?

A couple of months ago they arranged this Human vs AI competition around the Formula E track in Rome:



Lap times spoiler:
Spoiler


Here's the full autonomous lap:




It's obviously not the exact same car that ran at Goodwood.

Edited by ANF, 13 July 2018 - 23:13.


#839 Redback

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 01:35

Looks slow as hell, to be honest.

Roborace guys said it was limited to 75mph for that run and due to proximity of spectators it will remain so for all its FOS runs.

 

They weren't attempting a "time" per se.



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#840 maximilian

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 02:25

Anyhow, I stopped about 1:15:30 from the video.



#841 SmallHorsey

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 02:35

A couple of months ago they arranged this Human vs AI competition around the Formula E track in Rome:

https://www.youtube....h?v=kh00GAx66sA

Lap times spoiler:

Spoiler


Here's the full autonomous lap:

https://www.youtube....h?v=2Mz10aHmyxE


It's obviously not the exact same car that ran at Goodwood.

Thanks. A massive difference. I'd still be interested in them if they continue to improve. Or to see them racing each other.

#842 maximilian

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 02:54

see them racing each other.

 

Now see, THAT's what they SHOULD do.  It's what everybody wants to see, and even if they still go relatively slow, we can get somewhat excited about the competitive aspect of it all.  They might all suck, but at least it would be fun to see how they interact, pass each other, crash out, or even take each other out, and which would prevail in the end.  A bit like watching a snail race, but I once had a pretty good success with that at a school fair - people watched it, no matter how slow it was, just for the novelty! 

 

Running ONE car by itself does fudge all for anybody, it just underlines how slow the apparatus is moving.  Literally ANY ONE of us could easily beat this machine in a straight up race at the moment.



#843 DS27

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 13:19

They haven't programmed it to know what an apex is then?



#844 PiperPa42

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 13:34

Now see, THAT's what they SHOULD do.  It's what everybody wants to see, and even if they still go relatively slow, we can get somewhat excited about the competitive aspect of it all.  They might all suck, but at least it would be fun to see how they interact, pass each other, crash out, or even take each other out, and which would prevail in the end.  A bit like watching a snail race, but I once had a pretty good success with that at a school fair - people watched it, no matter how slow it was, just for the novelty! 

 

Running ONE car by itself does fudge all for anybody, it just underlines how slow the apparatus is moving.  Literally ANY ONE of us could easily beat this machine in a straight up race at the moment.

What am I not getting here? The whole point of the roborace is to race robot cars against each other with the teams developing the algorithms used by the cars.



#845 JimboJones

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 14:09

Anyone watching F1 thinking it is 'sport' as argued above is deluding themselves. It's a competition between makers of racing cars, the driver is the least important performance differentiator.


You honestly believe the words you type? If the driver was worth the least, why would Mercedes pay Lewis Hamilton 40 million/yr? Or why do they not pay the guy who designs the rear wing more than 40 million? According to you the best brake duct design is worth more laptime than a world class driver. Presumably you'd run two pay drivers in F1 then?

#846 Spillage

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Posted 14 July 2018 - 14:17

I'd like to see them battle each other too. It's almost always the case, at least for me, that the racing is more impressive than the ultimate lap times.

#847 GhostR

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 10:56

Now see, THAT's what they SHOULD do.  It's what everybody wants to see, and even if they still go relatively slow, we can get somewhat excited about the competitive aspect of it all.  They might all suck, but at least it would be fun to see how they interact, pass each other, crash out, or even take each other out, and which would prevail in the end.  A bit like watching a snail race, but I once had a pretty good success with that at a school fair - people watched it, no matter how slow it was, just for the novelty! 

 

Running ONE car by itself does fudge all for anybody, it just underlines how slow the apparatus is moving.  Literally ANY ONE of us could easily beat this machine in a straight up race at the moment.

 

That's the plan. They're still developing. The phase they're in now is not too dissimilar to before Formula E launched, when the prototype FE cars were run with just 1 or 2 on track while they validated everything was working as expected / necessary.

 

The added complexity this time around is that they're not just doing this for the physical car, they're also doing it for the AI that drives the cars. The latter is not to be underestimated: it's never been done before, so the development period is naturally going to be longer than the development time for the "relatively simple" Formula E car was.

 

I expect they'll get there eventually. We've already seen over the last year or so that they've got the tech into the actual driverless car, instead of the modified LMP car, then gone from doing demos on wider open runways to getting the car safely up the narrow Goodwood hill climb (albeit speed limited and not apexing properly). I expect it won't be too long now before we get to see it being run properly in anger.



#848 7MGTEsup

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 11:24

You honestly believe the words you type? If the driver was worth the least, why would Mercedes pay Lewis Hamilton 40 million/yr? Or why do they not pay the guy who designs the rear wing more than 40 million? According to you the best brake duct design is worth more laptime than a world class driver. Presumably you'd run two pay drivers in F1 then?

 

Ok put it this way,

 

could the best driver on the grid win in the worst car?

 

Could the worst driver on the grid win in the best car?

 

One of those questions has a much higher chance of the outcome than the other....



#849 prty

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 12:36

Autonomous racing cars will eventually be much better than humans when driving on the limit. It's essentially a balance control problem, which robots excel at. See for example the inverted pendulum controller, something that is taught in the first year of University:



A bit more complex :)



#850 SmallHorsey

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 12:48

That's the plan. They're still developing. The phase they're in now is not too dissimilar to before Formula E launched, when the prototype FE cars were run with just 1 or 2 on track while they validated everything was working as expected / necessary.

The added complexity this time around is that they're not just doing this for the physical car, they're also doing it for the AI that drives the cars. The latter is not to be underestimated: it's never been done before, so the development period is naturally going to be longer than the development time for the "relatively simple" Formula E car was.

I expect they'll get there eventually. We've already seen over the last year or so that they've got the tech into the actual driverless car, instead of the modified LMP car, then gone from doing demos on wider open runways to getting the car safely up the narrow Goodwood hill climb (albeit speed limited and not apexing properly). I expect it won't be too long now before we get to see it being run properly in anger.

My suspicion is that developing the AI that can cope with other cars in a racing manner will take a fair while. At least until it looks good. If it was just one car doing lap times alone, I'd expect it wouldn't be too long before they're matching human times.