17 replies to this topic

[xispas]

https://www.youtube....h?v=XATqcndLT3w

 

Well, I just saw this amazing bmw m3 e30 which have seen they say that the engine is a derivation thereof which used BMW to win in Formula 1 with the Brabham BT52 ..  4-cylinder S14 engine..

that's true? it is 4 Cylinders ¿?

[BRG]

I don't think it was the same family of engines.  The M3 engine was a four cylinder derivative of the BMW six cylinder motor.  The F1 enigine used the 1600cc block from the earlier 1602/2002 series.

[kayemod]

I don't think it was the same family of engines.  The M3 engine was a four cylinder derivative of the BMW six cylinder motor.  The F1 enigine used the 1600cc block from the earlier 1602/2002 series.

 

It wasn't,but that's one of Racing's urban myths, denied endlessly by BMW's Paul Rosche. The F1 engine and the road car 4 cylinder were superficially similar in the appearance of some components, but nothing more than that, completely different engines with not a single shared part.

[Lee Nicolle]

It wasn't,but that's one of Racing's urban myths, denied endlessly by BMW's Paul Rosche. The F1 engine and the road car 4 cylinder were superficially similar in the appearance of some components, but nothing more than that, completely different engines with not a single shared part.

If that is the case it was perpetuated by BMW in the day. 

What I have read too it was a 2002 style block with a different head and a [then] trick modern turbo system.

[jeremy durward]

I'm reasonably sure the confusion stems from the M10 block used in the 2002 being the basis for the formula 2 motor which was subsequently developed into the F1 engine. By then of course they moved away from production blocks etc. but it was still in a way related to the M10. The S14 motor in the M3 was also a development of the M10 and from that it does have a minor claim to F1 fame... if only that the twin cam head was inspired by the F2 and F1 engines.  

[kayemod]

If that is the case it was perpetuated by BMW in the day. 

What I have read too it was a 2002 style block with a different head and a [then] trick modern turbo system.

 

True, at the time they didn't exactly deny that their F1 engine was "production-based", but that was obviously good for their image. A part of the old rumour was that BMW used "aged" road car blocks to build up into race units, but this was never even considered. As designer Paul Rosche has pointed out frequently, such an assembly could be guaranteed to explode within a minute or two of being started, their genuine racing units were problematic enough in their early days.

[stuartbrs]

Maybe there should be a sub thread on "Racings greatest rumours".. the BMW aged blocks would have to be one of the most famous. Second only to the WW2 BMW "Toluene" jet fuel formula... surely that is no coincidence.  

[kayemod]

Maybe there should be a sub thread on "Racings greatest rumours".. the BMW aged blocks would have to be one of the most famous. Second only to the WW2 BMW "Toluene" jet fuel formula... surely that is no coincidence.

 

Certainly, very clever media spin by BMW, but if anyone wants to see a good video of an M30 M3 doing a bit more than making a lot of noise on a show-off solo demo drive, this is the one.

 

 

Belgian Patrick Snyers on the Manx Rally, aggressive fault free driving by a skilled professional, this is one of my favourites, I often go back to it for another look, and there are a few more Snyers/M30 M3 vids on YouTube. I came very close to buying an M30 M3 some years ago, but bought something more practical in the end, after coming to my senses and realising that a fool and his license are soon parted, but it's a magnificent machine. I can still remember what it felt like to drive, power, simplicity and lightness, an unbeatable combination, the only BMW that I ever seriously lusted after, just automotive magic.

Edited by kayemod, 11 December 2015 - 11:19.

[Tim Murray]

Here's what Ian Bamsey wrote about the BMW block in The 1000 BHP Grand Prix Cars:

The iron block designed by von Falkenhausen in 1959 was still in series production in 1984, powering the 316, 318 and 518 saloons and BMW Motorsport used essentially 'stock' blocks, treated via a heat and chemical process to relieve inherent stresses. During the Formula Two days the company had sometimes instead employed well run in ( around 100,000km.) examples. As in those days, the stabilized block had its internal walls machined smooth to assist oil return, while surplus ribs and water channels on the inlet side were machined off, to save around 7kg. New for '84 were some detail modifications to strengthen the area around the main bearing caps.

[BRG]

Belgian Patrick Snyers on the Manx Rally, aggressive fault free driving by a skilled professional, this is one of my favourites, I often go back to it for another look, and there are a few more Snyers/M30 M3 vids on YouTube. I came very close to buying an M30 M3 some years ago, but bought something more practical in the end, after coming to my senses and realising that a fool and his license are soon parted, but it's a magnificent machine. I can still remember what it felt like to drive, power, simplicity and lightness, an unbeatable combination, the only BMW that I ever seriously lusted after, just automotive magic.

Great video!  Good to recall what a dyed-in-the-wool Belgian tarmac rally specialist could do on his favoured surface.  A pity Snyers never got much chance outside Belgium.

 

IIRC the M3 was the only two wheel drive car to win a WRC round after the end of Group B (Bernard Beguin on the Tour de Corse).  It beat the works 4WD turbo cars, even though it was privately entered.

[Tim Murray]

Didier Auriol won in Corsica the following year (1988) in a 2-w-d Sierra Cosworth.

[2F-001]

I thought that a few all-tarmac rounds fell to the French FWD drive cars much later than that (in the 'kit-car' era)? Drivers were Gilles Panizzi or Phillipe Bulgaski - I should have looked this up before posting...

Edited by 2F-001, 11 December 2015 - 23:57.

[Catalina Park]

Maybe there should be a sub thread on "Racings greatest rumours".. the BMW aged blocks would have to be one of the most famous. Second only to the WW2 BMW "Toluene" jet fuel formula... surely that is no coincidence.

Don't forget the 1000, 1200 and 1500hp output.
Seems to be a lot of myths and BS about those BMW engines.

[brucemoxon]

Certainly, very clever media spin by BMW, but if anyone wants to see a good video of an M30 M3 doing a bit more than making a lot of noise on a show-off solo demo drive, this is the one.

 

 

Belgian Patrick Snyers on the Manx Rally, aggressive fault free driving by a skilled professional, this is one of my favourites, I often go back to it for another look, and there are a few more Snyers/M30 M3 vids on YouTube. I came very close to buying an M30 M3 some years ago, but bought something more practical in the end, after coming to my senses and realising that a fool and his license are soon parted, but it's a magnificent machine. I can still remember what it felt like to drive, power, simplicity and lightness, an unbeatable combination, the only BMW that I ever seriously lusted after, just automotive magic.

Reminiscent of a young Vatanen. Wonderful car control and very spectacular.

 

 

 

 

BM

[BRG]

I thought that a few all-tarmac rounds fell to the French FWD drive cars much later than that (in the 'kit-car' era)? Drivers were Gilles Panizzi or Phillipe Bulgaski - I should have looked this up before posting...

You're absolutely right of course.  I should have specified 'in the Group A era of the WRC'.

 

But even then, I was wrong, as Tim Murray reminded us!  The M3 was still pretty good though.

[kayemod]

The M3 was still pretty good though.

 

It was well beyond good, as I'm sure you know. What I remember best about the last one I drove, was the wailing noise that turned heads when revs went up, and the absolutely instant response, something I doubt you'd ever get with a turbo engine, I've never driven anything quite like it. Turbos are getting better all the time, but I can't see them reaching the light switch level of that original M3, no wonder the values are increasing all the time, you can almost name your price for a really good unmolested car.

[2F-001]

I think I've only ever ridden in one example of an E30 M3 - but it was a Zakspeed DTM car - at Spa and on the Nordschleife; it seemed to be quite a gutsy machine… 

[john aston]

Don't forget the 1000, 1200 and 1500hp output.
Seems to be a lot of myths and BS about those BMW engines.

 I dare say ..but I read of such power outputs in the press and I also read about the road car provenance. Like most of us , I am not an insider , so what I read in Autosport or Autocorse etc I tend to accpept in he absence of a contrary view.. It's very easy to say 'oh , you didn't fall for that load of old tut did you?  ' but what was the actual BHP ? And what is the definitive source?