47 replies to this topic

[WHITE]

Hi all,

 

It is well known that Patrese was blamed for Peterson's fatal accident and I wonder whether this put to a stop his promissing career.

He was later exonerated of any offence but I am affraid that, by then, he had already lost his best opportunities.

 

Does anyone remember those events and how they affected Patrese's career ?

 

thank you.

Edited by WHITE, 10 December 2015 - 10:45.

[Dick Dastardly]

I remember he was ostracized by the F1 drivers after the Peterson accident in '78 and was prevented from taking part in the following race(s).....years later, I think Lauda amongst others regretted this action. Hunt, in particular, seemed to lambast him at every opportunity whilst doing BBC commentaries....

But he was in front-running teams in the 80s [Brabham] and 90s [Williams], scoring wins in both whilst team-mates Piquet & Mansell won WDCs.....

[Tim Murray]

He has said himself that he had several offers when he was with Arrows, but was happy there and thus stayed loyal to them longer than he should have. He really wanted a Ferrari drive and (in 1978 - 80) believed that he was in line for a drive with them, and so turned down an offer from Brabham in 1979 and later rejected other teams' offers. Here are a couple of interviews with him. The first is in an earlier thread here:

Interview with Patrese

and the second is on TNFer Maldwyn's Riccardo Patrese site:

http://riccardopatre...g/?page_id=1402

[E1pix]

Riccardo being blamed for Ronnie's death may have been more tragic to F1 than the incident itself.

Drivers are human after all, and for most, the only way to find limits is to sometimes exceed them. To ruin or at least compromise a career from a momentary error -- even if he was responsible in the Peterson case, which I question -- is to ignore human limits and the massive pressures on a young driver (what was he, 23?).

If Ronnie had walked away, the entire incident would have been a non-issue. Such outcomes are not up to humans to determine, nor to suffer from. For the good of our sport, the media needs to honor that more than anyone.

[WHITE]

Thank you Tim,  I had read these interviews but I wonder whether he was only trying to be nice.  It is difficult to believe that a driver, any driver, would reject offers from Brabham and, let alone, Ferrari ( I remember having read then that there were rumours that they were seriously considering hiring Patrese ). Brabham then was sponsored by an italian company - Parmalat - and powered by an italian engine - Alfa Romeo - so it sounded logical to have an italian driver too and Riccardo was the best at hand. However, when the possibility of going to jail was not to be discarded ( apart from the bad publicity generated around him ), it is not difficult to imagine that he was no longer a desirable choice. A pity !

Edited by WHITE, 10 December 2015 - 11:34.

[Collombin]

Hunt, in particular, seemed to lambast him at every opportunity whilst doing BBC commentaries....

I've disputed this before, and only ever got given one example (Kyalami 1992 I think).

[FLB]

I have to say I'm a bit biaised here as Patrese (and Cevert, obviously) are my all-time favourite drivers.

 

Patrese went quite far with the Ferrari discussions, but he wasn't alone in line for the drive. Lauda and Reutemann were still there at the time, but when Lauda went to Brabham, the drive was open. Ferrari was looking at future options and actually tested Cheever and de Angelis. de Angelis got a Ferrari engine out out it for his F2 programme. Cheever, I believe was still under contract with BMW. The drive went to Gilles Villeneuve and when Reutemann said he was going to Lotus, the Old Man confirmed Gilles because he did not want to change his drivers at the same time (Scheckter was coming).

 

When Gilles was confirmed, Patrese asked if he was still a Ferrari driver or something else and was given the answer 'something else'. You have to remember that most of the Italian press thought Ferrari was foolish to hire an unknown to begin with, even if they still adore him to this day. An unknown Italian driver would have gone through hell, but at least, to the view of some people, he would have been Italian. The go-to sources for that period of Patrese's career are Pino Allievi and Daniele Audetto (Ferrari).

 

About James Hunt and Patrese, Gerry Donaldson's bio of Hunt delves a bit into it. Hunt was scathing when Patrese crashed while leading at Imola in 1983. Murray Walker was uncomfortable about his boothmate's attitude towards Patrese and is on the record in Donaldson's bio.

[E1pix]

Thanks Eric for the measure, which was sorely missed at the time in every quarter and pretty much ever since in discussions among “enthusiasts”.

You're welcome, Regga. :-)

[chr1s]

I've disputed this before, and only ever got given one example (Kyalami 1992 I think).

I agree, the first I ever heard of this was in an interview with Murray Walker in a documentary about James Hunt. I too was surprised because  I watched virtually every Grand prix that Hunt commentated on and I don't remember ever hearing him say anything derogatory about Patrese.  I have also watched a lot of the classic BBC races re-run on Sky and have made a point of listening to what Hunt says about Patrese and in  the most recent one, Mexico 1991, he was most complimentary about Riccardos' driving. 

Edited by chr1s, 10 December 2015 - 21:46.

[E1pix]

Hunt's disdain for Patrese is discussed in this fab-u-lous documentary, The Real James Hunt.

 

Even Riccardo himself weighs in on this very topic:

[chr1s]

Hunt's disdain for Patrese is discussed in this fab-u-lous documentary, The Real James Hunt.

 

Even Riccardo himself weighs in on this very topic:

That's where I first heard it, but as I said in my post I don't remember ever hearing Hunt say anything derogatory about Riccardo in any of his commentaries.

[E1pix]

Sorry, wasn't disagreeing, just posting what I'd seen. 

[Collombin]

Ironically, I can clearly remember Hunt outbursts against many other drivers when they did something stupid on track (Piquet, Prost and Senna included), but not Patrese!

[Catalina Park]

I recall Hunt having quite a few snide comments about Patrese over some years. Not really outbursts but still obvious stuff.

[FLB]

Ironically, I can clearly remember Hunt outbursts against many other drivers when they did something stupid on track (Piquet, Prost and Senna included), but not Patrese!

Oh God, René Arnoux, Monaco 1989!

[PlatenGlass]

I watched a lot of old races years after they were on, and there seemed to be very little evidence of the anti-Patrese bias from Hunt. I think it was in Austria 1982 when he was praising both Piquet and Patrese saying that there was little to choose between them - and Piquet was world champion a the time!

But as for the thread and Patrese's opportunities, he was twice in a championship winning car - 1983 alongside Piquet and 1992 alongside Mansell.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 11 December 2015 - 15:28.

[jrv_t644e]

It's my recollection, and i can;t remember where there's a reference to back it up. If i find it i'll add it.

 

It's my recollection that Patrese was, in fact, completely exonerated in the Peterson situation, which makes the pressure brought to bear, causing him to be excluded later in the year, all the more shameful.

 

 

 

Oh WHITE, i'm so sorry  by the time i got to the end of the thread i'd forgotten you already said he was exonerated.

It's very good to see the thread however. Thank You.

Edited by jrv_t644e, 11 December 2015 - 17:39.

[jj2728]

Ahhh, Riccardo...kinda got the short thrift didn't he?

[chr1s]

Ironically, I can clearly remember Hunt outbursts against many other drivers when they did something stupid on track (Piquet, Prost and Senna included), but not Patrese!

And Jean Pierre Jarier!

[jrv_t644e]

Oh gosh he really had it in for Jarier didn't he?

[JacnGille]

I still remember watching Riccardo next to his expired Arrows at Kyalami in '78.

[FredF1]

Oh gosh he really had it in for Jarier didn't he?

 

 

And Andrea de Cesaris. There's a fair few "He'd better be careful as he has to pass de Cesaris next" type comments whenever a race leader is lapping the back markers.

[Collombin]

There's a "match the Hunt insult to the driver" game in there somewhere. Deserves a Paddock Club thread of its own.

[Doug Nye]

Indeed it does.  I certainly recall the distinct impression - well, more than an impression actually - of Hunt having his knife sharpened especially for Patrese.  Around the time of Ronnie's death Hunt was certainly very noisy in the anti-Patrese witch hunt which - as we have covered before in this place - rather collapsed as the Italian magazine 'Autosprint' published a number of photographs taken by a trackside spectator which showed, if anything, that Hunt himself had triggered the fatal sequence of events while Patrese was (for once) an innocent bystander.  Ever after, we felt, Hunt reserved particular venom for the Italian who - on a personal level - developed into an extremely likeable and capable good guy, as well as a passably capable second-tier racing driver.  He ended up rather more popular a figure than Hunt had ever been...although James certainly mellowed and grew up a lot.

 

DCN

[WHITE]

Dough Nye :

 

" Ever after, we felt, Hunt reserved particular venom for the Italian who - on a personal level - developed into an extremely likeable and capable good guy, as well as a passably capable second-tier racing driver "

 

This is what pushed me into starting the thread. I wonder whether Patrese could have achieved a more sucessful career had it not being blamed for that accident. When Ecclestone, finally, hired him, Piquet was the undisputable nº 1 driver at Brabham so Patrese's job was to guard his back, which he did very well. The same at Williams.

 

So, can we conclude that that accident somehow conditioned his future ?

[chunder27]

I think Patrese did mighty well out of his career really. He achieved a lot and also managed to turn things around, unlike some other guys of his era like de Cesaris who never shook the money tag.

 

Patrese had a glittering early career only did a short time in F2 and was in F1 very quickly.  Think about guys like Rupert Keegan who were also around who did not get the same breaks or did not achieve as much.

 

Hunt clearly had it in for him, no idea why, when you think how reckless Gilles was in 77, Ronnie was certanly not much of a fan!

 

I think Patrese was the consumate pro, all those years driviing garbage Brabhams, especially when Piquet left and the Alfa Romeo!, then he got his break with WIlliams, where given the breaks and a less whiney and bitching team-mate who no doubt played all the political cards he could, he might have stood a chance at being World Champ.

Still doesn't explain his lean years though, he never dominated Boutsen?  Then is often quicker than Nigel later on?  Strange guy really.

[Regazzoni]

Fair comment, chunder27, short and comprehensive. That is a very fair comment. Chapeau.

[Glengavel]

I once read somewhere, sometime, a suggestion that Hunt's attitude to Patrese stemmed from his own feelings of guilt over the incident.

[Charlieman]

I think Patrese was the consumate pro, all those years driviing garbage Brabhams, especially when Piquet left and the Alfa Romeo!, then he got his break with WIlliams...

Agreed. I don't believe that Patrick Head and Frank Williams are infallible, but if Patrese was a lousy driver he would not have spent so long with the team. Patrese was really quick when on form and solid most of the time. 

 

Hunt's misplaced disdain for Patrese stuck in my mind during the commentary years. I was an F1 follower at the time of the Monza crash, but I didn't understand Hunt's accusations fully. I was young and hadn't learned much about grudges. A few years later (1992?), Patrese was racing for Williams when he lost the car in the Hockenheim stadium complex. Hunt's comment was something like "What do you expect from Patrese".

[E1pix]

I once read somewhere, sometime, a suggestion that Hunt's attitude to Patrese stemmed from his own feelings of guilt over the incident.

I think that was on that same show I quoted, if not on this one:

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=1VQYM7JeEKQ

[E1pix]

Oh, and to those never seeing this, best Patrese video of all time:
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=oIhGJyLR6TI

[Michael Ferner]

Let's not forget that Patrese wasn't banned from competing at Watkins Glen because of his alleged involvement in the Monza crash that killed Peterson. Instead, he was, and quite reasonably too, "disciplined" for a number of unspecified incidents during the 1978 F1 season. I don't think it affected his driving, other than speeding up the process of gathering experience, and "calming down".

[ensign14]

^E.g. Sweden.  Doug in Theme Lotus mentions that Andretti was "blatantly baulked" by Patrese; Roebuck in the Andretti monograph talks about Patrese's blocking being "agricultural" - an adjective normally reserved for a Norman Hunter challenge - and that Patrese's driving was "roundly condemned by all who had seen them".  Andretti himself quoted as stating that Peterson was "shaking with rage".
 

I've disputed this before, and only ever got given one example (Kyalami 1992 I think).

 
Canada 1989, when he condemned Williams' driver recruitment, saying "Boutsen was slow and Patrese even slower".  Ironically they finished 1-2 in that race, but only after running behind an Osella for half the race...

 

Has anyone the BBC Grand Prix Guide for 1986-7 to hand?  Pretty sure Hunt was uncomplimentary in that.
 

And Andrea de Cesaris. There's a fair few "He'd better be careful as he has to pass de Cesaris next" type comments whenever a race leader is lapping the back markers.

Think that has to go down as fair comment.

[chunder27]

I read an interesting piece elsewhere yesterday by a hack that was talking to Walter Wolf.

 

WW comments at the end on James Hunt, and makes an interesting point that he feels James blamed himself for Ronnie's accident and never felt the same about F1 afterwards, especially as a driver, hence his rather wasted 79 season and totally happy walking away.

 

I think this perhaps linked to his obvious dislike of Patrese, is why he was so bitter as he clearly blamed Riccardo AND himself.

 

Regarding Patrese, if you watch his lap on youtube with his beautiful wife on board you will see a man happy in life, content and why not.  It is hilarious and he, was a gentleman among bounders when he retired.

Edited by chunder27, 13 December 2015 - 11:36.

[Regazzoni]

Let's not forget that Patrese wasn't banned from competing at Watkins Glen because of his alleged involvement in the Monza crash that killed Peterson. Instead, he was, and quite reasonably too, "disciplined" for a number of unspecified incidents during the 1978 F1 season. I don't think it affected his driving, other than speeding up the process of gathering experience, and "calming down".

 

There are two things here: “quite reasonably so” and “a number of unspecified incidents”. It would be wise (if fair seems too much) to actually specify them and then perhaps draw the conclusion it was reasonable.

 

If he was so culpable before Monza, why they didn’t do that before then, instead to wait for the Glen? He wasn’t disqualified by the FIA, but a posse of drivers – Hunt, Lauda, Fittipaldi, Scheckter, Andretti – arbitrarily made a stand against him at the Glen. All of them subsequently regretted it and apologised in person, except Hunt.

 

The main argument [excuse] was what allegedly happened at the Swedish GP. That year the Swedish GP wasn’t broadcast in Italy, I saw it first time recently on youtube [here, and in your language too: https://www.youtube....h?v=VYVHa5HBwkU] and I can’t find a single deliberate obstruction on Peterson, not one. It can be seen that Peterson actually was never that close to try to overtake the Arrows, it all seems a normal race of two cars trying to make it home intact, as at the time often happened. Of course, they made a sprint after the last curve before the chequered flag - what do you expect, “apres vous Madame”? The truth is that Peterson wasn’t “shaking with rage”, he and Patrese actually shook hands after the race - I have the picture - and that was it. Everything said afterwards by others was only self-serving, especially with Ronnie conveniently not around anymore to contradict.

 

“Blatantly baulked”, “agricultural” are typical expressions of the notoriously objective English publicists – or supposed press – which then rabid prejudiced characters use any time they can to further their own agenda. Roebuck at least has been honest enough to admit he didn’t like Patrese until they made up years later and re-assessed his judgement of that year.

 

The situation of 1978 reminds me of two episodes, on top of my head now, of which the history of the sport has plenty of examples. Apparently only 1978 is recalled over and over again – in Britain; this because a beloved driver was killed in those circumstances, a convenient scapegoat was instantly found and as such he has always been considered ever since.

 

Scheckter and Fittipaldi at the 1973 French GP, where they collided racing for the lead, with Jody (of all people, he really should have known better at the Glen) then benched by his team after accusations of being a “troglodyte”, among other niceties.

 

Senna and Alboreto during the qualification session at Monaco 1984, with Alboreto (another of the patron saints of the sport) accusing Senna to obstruct him during his flying lap. How he dared, this rookie. Time to give him a lesson or two. [don’t mention he qualified behind his teammate Arnoux, of course]

 

After so many years one would expect a balanced appreciation of what happened in 1978 to finally emerge, but it is clear it won’t be on TNF, beacon of historical impartiality - and censorship.

 

 

[this is the last of me here]

[ensign14]

The main argument [excuse] was what allegedly happened at the Swedish GP. That year the Swedish GP wasn’t broadcast in Italy, I saw it first time recently on youtube [here, and in your language too: https://www.youtube....h?v=VYVHa5HBwkU] and I can’t find a single deliberate obstruction on Peterson, not one.

 

I'm not going to watch the whole race, but did you see that bit at 1hr 18 with Jones in the gravel?  The director missed the incident because showing the 13th placed chap in the pits was far more riveting.  But according to Autocourse and DSJ (who described Patrese's defence as "pretty rough tactics" it was caused when Patrese punted him up the chuff.

 

And it's interesting that you latch onto this being an English journalist conspiracy. 

 

Firstly, I do not have any non-British sources, I'd be grateful if you could enlighten. 

 

Secondly, this is largely from British journalists talking about how an Italian driver drove against an American, Australian and Swedish driver.  The only English driver who was vocal against Patrese was one whom most of the British journalists couldn't abide for his shenanigans. 

 

Thirdly, Autocourse, a British publication, for 1978 put Patrese in the top 10.  Despite, as they said, him "employ[ing] what are politely called 'Formula 3' tactics". 

 

And fourthly, DSJ in the November 1978 Motor Sport issue implied the Monza crash was not Patrese's fault - that "the McLaren [was] not running straight and true" and that none of the drivers would talk about the incident, other than Patrese.  But "unfortunately Riccardo Patrese has a rather quick temper" and "all season [he] has been trying just a bit too hard and enthusiastically for his experience, like Scheckter when he started in Formula One, and James Hunt when he was in Formula Ford and Formula Three".  You may detect a note of criticism of some of Patrese's accusers there; I couldn't possibly comment. 

 

But he also said he was "a bit unruly at times", mentioning him punting Jones off at Sweden, Ertl at Austria and Pironi at Zandvoort, and quoted Lauda, who was usually hard but fair, as saying that Patrese "weaves about on straights".

 

DSJ's comment at the end is probably the most appropriate.  "Perhaps he did need a kick up the backside, though whether it was done in the correct manner is a matter of opinion."  And surely it worked.  We did not see Wild Riccardo in later years, but a far more cultured and well-rounded driver and individual.  But too nice to be the sort of bastard that seizes the world title like a drowning man seizes a life-belt.

 

I would therefore suspect that Patrese is a bit more comfortable in his own skin today than, say, Piquet.

[Michael Ferner]

There are two things here: “quite reasonably so” and “a number of unspecified incidents”. It would be wise (if fair seems too much) to actually specify them and then perhaps draw the conclusion it was reasonable.

Not my words, they were actually left unspecified at the time! "Quite reasonable", because Patrese was a bit of a wild man, but not unreasonably so, and hence the ban was not really called for. Most of the drivers calm down after a couple of seasons - Mario Andretti is a good example, he was considered a real danger to other drivers before he settled down. Maybe it's the Italian blood boiling over

C'mon Regga, don't run away. This has not been a very serious thread so far, and I can't really see where your outburst comes from, other than from missing out on subtext in a foreign language.

[ensign14]

Firstly, I do not have any non-British sources, I'd be grateful if you could enlighten. 

 

Tell a lie.  I do.  Frederik af Petersens' "The Viking Drivers".

 

On the prize-winners; stand [Peterson] gives Patrese a bawling out, but that doesn't seem to worry him.

 

"Didn't you see all the flags?  This isn't Formula 3 but Formula 1.  Damned idiot."

 

It wasn't often that Ronnie got angry, but when he did he was really angry, and this was one of those rare occasions.

 

 

Any other nations we can add in this conspiracy?

[JacnGille]

Oh, and to those never seeing this, best Patrese video of all time:
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=oIhGJyLR6TI

[E1pix]

C'mon Regga, don't run away. This has not been a very serious thread so far, and I can't really see where your outburst comes from, other than from missing out on subtext in a foreign language.

+1

[Vitesse2]

"A posse of drivers – Hunt, Lauda, Fittipaldi, Scheckter, Andretti – arbitrarily made a stand against him at the Glen ..."

 

While the legitimacy of the group may be in doubt - it has been variously interpreted as inspired by either or both of the GPDA and FOCA (or even to satisfy Bernie's search for a scapegoat) - you make that sound like some sort of ad hoc kangaroo court immediately before the race. Looking back at the sequence of events as reported by John Blunsden in The Times, it wasn't actually 'at the Glen' as such. Despite the fact that Patrese had been cleared by an Italian inquiry, the provisional ban on his competing in the US GP was announced on September 21st - ten days before the race.

 

In their issue of September 29th, The Times did also publish a photo copied from Autosprint, which appears to show Patrese ahead of Hunt (and to his right), supposedly 180 metres before the crash.

 

Blunsden never criticised or blamed Patrese for the incident and from the tone of his reports he doesn't actually seem to have agreed with either the ban or the other drivers' attitude. At the end of the season, he described Patrese as having 'stood in so ably for the ailing Gunnar Nilsson'.

 

And while Keith Botsford often comes in for a bit of stick hereabouts, this was his take on it in the Sunday Times i/d October 1st:

 

 

On the other hand, Eric Dymock in The Guardian was calling Patrese variously 'fiery' and 'aggressive' even before the British GP, let alone Monza, and his September 13th report of Ronnie's passing specifically states that 'the opinion of most of the other drivers is that Patrese did an improper manoeuvre and forced Hunt's car to bump against Peterson.' Before the US race Dymock repeated his 'aggressive driving' comment, while also conceding that Patrese was likely being made a scapegoat in an 'unwholesome way.' In fact he also used the phrase 'kangaroo court' - although this was in the context of attempts by the Italians to have the race deleted from the World Championship. Dymock's end of season review was balanced:

 

While Patrese's driving has too often been aggressive and ill-judged, the Watkins Glen ban was not something of which his fellow drivers can be proud.

 

[kayemod]

Thanks for that Vitesse, I'd almost forgotten what a crap writer Botsford was, but maybe he was better in his previous post as the Sunday Times tennis correspondent, a perfect qualification for covering F1..

[ensign14]

One note, which the Botsford article recalls, is Jarier had the no. 55 rather than 6.  

 

FISA would not allow Ferrari to have 37 for Tambay as Gilles' replacement.  The only drivers who died in between Peterson's death and Tambay's Ferrari call-up were Depailler, who died in testing and may have had an un-numbered car, and Paletti, who was not replaced in 1982.

 

And I don't think anyone before had had a number "rested" after a driver died.  E.g. Shadow still used 16 after Pryce's death.  Oddly moving Zorzi from 17 to 16 before recruiting Patrese. 

 

Any reason why Lotus were allowed to change?

[BRG]

.... typical expressions of the notoriously objective English publicists – or supposed press ...

 damn those objective English people.  Why can't they be subjective like the media of other lands?

 

Personally, I welcome a bit of objectivity in reporting.  It's rather rare.

[kayemod]

 damn those objective English people.  Why can't they be subjective like the media of other lands?

 

Personally, I welcome a bit of objectivity in reporting.  It's rather rare.

 

I have some sympathy though, it's quite difficult to be both offensive and wrong in a language other than your native tongue.

[E1pix]

One note, which the Botsford article recalls, is Jarier had the no. 55 rather than 6.  

 

FISA would not allow Ferrari to have 37 for Tambay as Gilles' replacement.  The only drivers who died in between Peterson's death and Tambay's Ferrari call-up were Depailler, who died in testing and may have had an un-numbered car, and Paletti, who was not replaced in 1982.

 

And I don't think anyone before had had a number "rested" after a driver died.  E.g. Shadow still used 16 after Pryce's death.  Oddly moving Zorzi from 17 to 16 before recruiting Patrese. 

 

Any reason why Lotus were allowed to change?

 

I believe it was out of respect for Ronnie's passing, at least until 1979.

[FLB]

A couple of drivers also took it upon themselves to have a word with Arnoux and Villeneuve after Dijon 1979, to have them disciplined. Villeneuve's answer was that he did not care.

 

In the Pino Allievi interview I referred to earlier, Patrese said that if it had been him, it would have been a different story and that guns would have been blazing.

 

Also, regarding Peterson and Sweden, remember that a) he was popular with the press; b) in his home country; c) driving for a dominant team; d) beaten by an upstart; e) who was driving for a new (outsider) team that was involved in a major engineering scandal before the season had even started.

 

His personality not withstanding, it's quite easy to understand some people would have it in for Patrese no matter what he actually did on the track.

[E1pix]

In the Pino Allievi interview I referred to earlier, Patrese said that if it had been him, it would have been a different story and that guns would have been blazing.

 

Believable, and worth considering it was in France, one driver was French in a French car, and the other a French-Canadian.