22 replies to this topic

[moody]

..hi everyone
I have been going through a few of my books and I was reading a little piece about Monza, it had a photo of he banking and it said that the banking hasn't been used in the Grand Prix since the tragic race of 1961..
..I felt it gave the impression that it was banned because of a tragic accident on the banking itself, which of course we all know isn't the case, we lost Taffy von Tripps approaching the Parabolica..
..so then, has anyone lost their life while racing on the banking? It was very bumpy and dangerous of course, but I have never actually come across a report of someone who died as a result of a crash on the banking, ..except for Sarti that is, sorry it isn't a subject for levity I know...
regards
Moody

[Ray Bell]

It was the roughness and the potential for tragedy that led to the banking being excluded. In 1962 it was scheduled to be used and was, in fact, in early practice - from memory.

But by the end of practice there was no more talk of it, though the organisers did try again a couple of times in later years.

Most quoted reasons for the danger were g-loadings combined with the roughness....

[Rob29]

It was '63 not '62 ,Ray.
First day practice was held on combined circuit;British teams complained their cars were falling apart,so day 2 practice & race were moved to road circuit. To my knowledge no one has ever been hurt on the banking-nearest was when Stirling Moss had steering fail on Maserati in "Two Worlds' Trophy" 1958.
The conbined circuit,with banking & chicanes,was used for 1000km sports car races until the '70s.

[Leif Snellman]

Of course Jean Behra had crashed fatally only a few years earlier on the AVUS banking so ...

[Barry Boor]

According to Adriano Cimarosti's book 'The Complete, Total and Utter History of Grand Prix Racing' the Duesenberg of Count Trossi dropped oil on "one of the steeply banked curves of the high speed oval". It was on this oil that both Campari and Borzacchini crashed and died. Cimarosti says that later, Czaykowski was killed on the same bend.

I don't know why, but I always thought that the latter (writer baulks at typing complex foreign name again!) had his crash elsewhere.

Can anyone authenticate any of this from contemporary reports?

[Milan Fistonic]

In Power and Glory, William Court wrote ..."Sure enough on the 8th lap Lehoux appeared alone, Czaikowski having skidded on the fatal patch at well over 100 mph and left the road to have his petrol tank explode before help could be brought..."

Earlier he wrote ... "the two cars (Campari and Borzacchini) hit the oil patch, inadequately cleared, and despite the great skill and experience of their drivers they crashed and were both killed almost instantly."

In his Grand Prix Requiem he adds that Count Carlo Castelbarco and Nando Barbieri also crahed at the same spot and survived.

[Barry Lake]

That banking in 1933 when the three drivers were killed in one day wasn't the same as can be seen there now. It was much flatter (though still quite banked) and I think was a surface like bitumen, not concrete. It also had no guard rail.
The very high banking seen at Monza now was built in 1954/55.
I think you will find, also, that the oil on the road theory isn't cut and dried. There was a suggestion that cars having brakes on the rear wheels only (fronts removed for lightness) was a contributing factor.
I am sure Hans Etzrodt will spot this thread soon enough and tell us the full story.

[Barry Boor]

I have wondered about that 'banking'. In the aforementioned book, Cimarosti adds a circuit plan as each new circuit is used for the first time. The Monza plan first appears in 1922, but with the old Vedano corners and a large oval section too. I knew that the current banking was built in the 1950's so I was never quite sure what that oval was.

Thanks for the explanation, Barry.

[oldtimer]

The 1956 Italian GP not only saw Ferraris shredding their tyres, but Fangio and Musso both had steering arms break during the race. Musso had a heart-stopping moment as he slithered helplessly towards the pits, but without harm to any. DSJ also speculated that Von Trips practice accident, which wrote off the Ferrari, was also a broken steering arm

[Hans Etzrodt]

Originally posted by Barry Lake
...I am sure Hans Etzrodt will spot this thread soon enough and tell us the full story.

Sorry Barry,
Until the end of the month I am very busy with my job and therefore have to cut my hours with TNF. I think Alessandro is the most qualified person.

[David J Jones]

I think this has been in MotorSport in the last couple of years (or is mentioned in an article) so I will have a look over the next few days.
There was also an article on the Monza circuits and pictures of what exists today - even shots of the pre war relics in the park.

I am having a tidy up so I have an excuse for browsing!!

[David J Jones]

I managed to find the Campari article in Motor Sport - all it stated was that Campari and Borzacchini died as a result of the same accident (as a result of skidding on oil) . The article seems to indicate that this was in a heat.

The article than states that Count Czaykowski crashed his Bugatti with fatal results in the final.

I have not yet come to the Monza article so I shall keep going

[FLB]

David, there was also a Czaikowski obituary in Motor Sport. The journalist was a friend, who wrote that it made him lose taste in the sport. He was a fellow Bugatti owner.

Ref: Court, Grand-Prix Requiem.

Of course, part of the oil theory comes from the fact that everybody had to look for a culprit. They found one in the Bi-motore, which made a likely scapegoat because it was "strange". Giovanni Canestrini, though, thought that it wasn't really the case, and that over-zealous driving had played a major role.

[David J Jones]

In another history of GP racing I have found reference to the accidents and a picture of the Campari and Borzacchini cars at rest.

The history states that Czaykowski crashed at the same spot in the final. I still have not managed to determine which corner it was yet.

The history stated Campari was going to retire and become involved in Operas?

[LittleChris]

I believe that a couple of Formula Junior drivers were killed after colliding on the entrance to the North Banking in 1960 or 1961

[Felix Muelas]

Originally posted by LittleChris
I believe that a couple of Formula Junior drivers were killed after colliding on the entrance to the North Banking in 1960 or 1961

Little Chris,

Although the easiest thing would be for me to direct you to page 7 of another thread ("Speeds´ ultimate price"), I think I can give you a glimpse of it with a quote of the messages that Barry Boor and myself exchanged over the subject some weeks ago...and then, if you find it interesting, you can always follow that thread ;)


Barry Boor wrote:
While browsing through the '100 Years of Motor Racing' book by Ivan Rendall, I came across an horrific illustration of a crash at the Formula Junior race before the 1959 Italian Grand Prix at Monza. It shows two red cars somersaulting in pieces. The drivers were, apparently, both killed. Their names are given as Alfredo Tinazzo and Antonio Criballeri.

Two questions: Are these two drivers mentioned anywhere else on this thread? And can anyone hang some flesh on the bones of the bare details of this accident?
__________________
BJB

and I posted :

Barry : some details.

If there had been a worrying aspect about the development of Formula Junior it was in the increasingly forceful type of driving which was becoming apparent. Now that the better cars had developed stamina as well as speed the faster drivers were finding themselves matched against the same adversaries week after week, and an intense rivalry between them was having an effect on their driving. Fortunately, over-exuberance in a Formula Junior race had rarely resulted up to now in anything worse than damaged machinery, minor injuries and hurt pride, but it was to be a different story on June 28th at Monza—a circuit which is less forgiving than most when a driver makes a mistake, or a car lets him down.
The meeting was organized by the A.C. of Milan, the Formula Junior race being the curtain-raiser to the main event—the Lottery G.P. for Grand Touring cars. The Junior race was to be run in two parts, each of 26 laps over the road circuit, making a total distance of 299 kilometres, the overall winner, as usual, being declared on a basis of his aggregate times.
The race, which was for the 2nd Monza Junior Cup (the first had taken place the previous year over the high-speed circuit on the eve of the 500 Miles race, when the use of the artificial chicane had caused such chaos in front of the grandstand) drew an excellent entry, with drivers from Italy, Switzerland, France, Jugoslavia and the United States. There were eighteen Stan-guellinis, two Morettis, a De Sanctis, a Dagrada, two Volpinis, one of them with a D.K.W. engine, and a Foglietti.
In practice Bordeu, May and Cammarota had all lapped in record time and another six drivers had established times below 2 min. 10 secs., so a hard race was expected. And so it proved.
Bordeu, May and Cammarota were immediately joined by Genovese and Branca, who started a five-car battle from which Bordeu's Stanguellini slowly but surely eased its way into the lead. May dropped back, and his place was taken by Zanarotta, then on lap 21 the first serious accident occurred when Dino Montevago lost control of his Foglietti on the approach to the first Lesmo curve, and was seriously injured when the car crashed into a tree. Meanwhile Zanarotti, after setting up the fastest lap in 2 min. 5 secs., had left the track backwards, but without harm this time, and May had retired his car with engine trouble; this left Bordeu to win the first part of the race just .4 sec. in front of Cammarota, who had made a strong challenge during the closing laps, and Genovese, who finished another 1.8 secs. away in third place.
Seventeen cars lined up for the second part of the race, and after Tinazzo had made the best start, Bordeu challenged him for the lead and went ahead as a group of five drivers joined Tinazzo in a fierce battle for places. Drivers chopped and changed positions all round the circuit until, on the eighth lap there was a multiple pile-up on the fast and tricky Vialone curve. Alfredo Tinazzo's De Sanctis and Nino Crivellari's Stanguellini collided heavily, and both cars were virtually destroyed, the unfortunate drivers being killed almost instantly. Roberto Lippi spun his car in avoiding the melee, but was not hurt, while the other drivers managed to scramble past and continue the race. Bordeu, of course, had not been involved in the Vialone incident and he went on to win the second part of the race, and thereby became winner on aggregate.
Zanarotti and Cammarota continued to fight hard for second place until the end of the race, Zanarotti getting the verdict by .3 sec. although his poor placing in the first part of the race, after his spin off the track, put him out of the running on aggregate times. Cammarota was placed second overall, 4.8 secs. behind Bordeu and the Frenchman Revol was third, over 3 mins. behind. Genovese, the American Carpenter, the Jugoslav Morrison and Zanarotti filled the next four places, all seven drivers being in Stanguellinis. The 2nd Monza Junior Cup had been a fast and a furious race, and it brought the first half of the 1959 FJ season to a close on an unhappy note. John Blunsden, "Formula Junior", 1961

Felix

[Felix Muelas]

Oh, and this is the image Barry was talking about...

[Vitesse2]

Monza's banking was used in the definitive Formula 1 film "Grand Prix". This was a full four years after F1 cars had run in anger on it.

[Barry Boor]

Yes, it was extremely rough by then. Look what happened to Sarti as a result of the rough surface.

I read somewhere that he was actually supposed to WIN that race, but the script had to be altered after that exhaust pipe caused his fatal crash!

[LittleChris]

Felix,

Thanks for the info. The reason that I remembered about the F Junior accident is that I saw the image in the same book as Barry. I assumed it was the North curve, but if it is the Vialone, then the other cars in the pic must be going away rather than heading toward the accident as I had assumed.

Chris

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
on the eighth lap there was a multiple pile-up on the fast and tricky Vialone curve. Alfredo Tinazzo's De Sanctis and Nino Crivellari's Stanguellini collided heavily, and both cars were virtually destroyed, the unfortunate drivers being killed almost instantly.

If that's supposed to be Curva Vialone then I must say that the artist had quite some imagination!

[Barry Boor]

No matter where on the Monza circuit that accident happened I have always felt there was a not inconsiderable dollop of artistic licence involved in this lurid image.

[Ray Bell]

You teach such understatement at your school, Barry?

It doesn't really look like the banking...