28 replies to this topic

[stewartjp]

Hi Everyone, 

 

I am new to the forums and am very impressed with what I see so far. 

 

I am working on a pet project researching Dodge and DeSoto motor cars racing in Europe before World War Two. I got started on this because I own a DeSoto Straight eight and a Dodge Straight Eight which I am restoring. 

 

I am hoping to find some photos and that is what I am hoping some of the members here can help me with, any help will be greatly appreciated!

 

There are a few Specific events I am trying to find photos from, I have also provided a quick note as to what I know already. Even if people can link me up to galleries I would very happy trawl through them myself.  The events are - 

 

Europe 

 

Spa 24 Hour

1930 - Hommel and Van Howe Ran A DeSoto CF 8 Roadster Number 18 and placed 8th - Jean Pesato and Morel ran a DeSoto TBA Model and came 15th - I have one photo of the Hommel and Van Howe Car in the pits (see below).

 

1931 - Two DeSoto's Ran one by Northomb and one by Eygen

 

1932 - J and L Northomb Ran Car Number 16 which came 11th overall 

 

Swedish Summer Grand Prix

1932 - 28th Feb 1932 - Erik Lafrenz ran car number 18 which was a Dodge which DNF after a crash with car 26

 

1933 -26 Feb 1933 - F.Weyer ran car number 25 which was a Dodge which DNF'd due to a flat tyre - Helmer Anderson Ran Car number 33 a Dodge 3.6L 

 

Vrams Grand Prix  

1933 - 6th August - Helmer Carlsson Car number 8 DeSoto Straight 8 Special DNF Clutch 

 

Argentina 

 

December 1933 Carrera De Canals - 

Fernando Nery- DeSoto Special - Winner 

Pedro Bardin - DeSoto Special - Second Place 

 

1932 Stadium General San Martin Race

D. Bucci  Ran a DeSoto 

 

 

 

This is the photo I have of the Hommel and Van Howe Car. 

 

 

Many Thanks for reading. 

 

Stewart 

Edited by stewartjp, 28 January 2016 - 02:10.

[Ray Bell]

Great topic!

While I knew about the Le Mans Chryslers of the late twenties and early thirties, I've previously heard nothing about about De Sotos and Dodges in that theatre.

I do have a lot of information about such cars racing in Australia, however. Particularly Specials using these engines.

[stewartjp]

Hi Ray, 

 

Thanks for the reply, I am really interested in things that went on in Australia as I am an Aussie from Melbourne. 

 

I just figured this might be a mostly international forum. 

 

I have assembled a list of all motorsports events with Dodges and DeSoto's in Australia before world war two totalling about 80 events. Mostly Royal Automobile Club of Australia/Victoria, Light Car Clubs of NSW and Australia and Sydney Motor and Bicycle club events. 

 

I would be hugely interested in anything you can share with me and photos would be amazing. 

 

I would be very happy to share my lists with you if you are interested. 

 

Cheers 

 

Stewart 

[Ray Bell]

Dick Hart would surely love you, Stewart...

For a start, there were two Bugattis received Dodge engines, one in Queensland and one in Victoria. The one in Queensland had a real cloud over it as the owner and the person who had possession of it disagreed over whose it rightly was.

A look through John Medley's Bathurst book and the 50-year History AGP book reveals a lot of these cars, the Specials, but the ones you are interested in a probably more difficult to find.

Production car races weren't so widely reported, but your research obviously proves it can be done. I think Brian Lear might have some more information about that pre-war era too.

While Barry Ranford in WA was a Chrysler stalwart in the late thirties through to the early fifties, received wisdom was that generally the Chrysler engines would never breathe as well as the likes of the Hudson and Terraplane units because of their siamesed ports. For my money, I'd prefer to have a decent oil pump and bearing lubrication system, as the Chryslers did.

You might have seen the 'Montana Dodge Boys' website? That's a lot of fun...

[stewartjp]

Dare I ask who Dick Hart is? - Is he a guy from SA ? 

 

Do you have names of the guys who owned the Bugatti's ? I have the register of Bugatti's in Australia I would love to see if I can track the cars. 

 

Thanks for the tip on the book, though my research at this point mostly focuses pre WW2.  

 

I will send Brian a message shortly. 

 

I Agree with you very much on the Chrysler engines, my understanding is that with improved carburation they can be made to perform very well.  

 

Robert Croucher from Octane had something to say on the topic of the performance of vintage Chryslers  

 

"My good friend Ray Jones of Sydney Australia, invited me to take part in the Mille-Miglia with him in 1999. We were to drive his Chrysler 75. Some in the vintage world look down on these Americans, halfway through Bentley specialist Stanley Mann wandered over. "What sort of supercharger do you have fitted to the Chrysler?" he asked (we'd overtaken his vintage Bentley a number of times). Ray opened the bonnet. Its two huge SU's and banana-branch header would have given your average VSCC scrute heart failure but there was no blower, Stanley was amazed. And the Chrysler had excellent, original hydraulic brakes."

 

I also had a chat with Howard Swig at Monterey Historics last year who runs a 1931 Chrysler CD8 in US historic racing and he was telling me he gets 80mph in second gear with one to go.... That car has to big downdraft carbies on a period Edmands Manifold. 

 

I have seen the Montana Dodge Boys site and I follow them on facebook too, they are doing some very interesting stuff.  

[Ray Bell]

I called in on the Montana Dodge Boys, or at least one of them, when I drove by 18 months ago...

I promptly got a ride in a Plymouth convertible with a 426 Hemi enlarged to some wild size like 571 cubes, he needed to go down to the servo to get some beer. On the way he opened up the exhaust cutouts and gave it full throttle.

There is a significant difference, of course, between the 7-bearing ZSB engines of the twenties and the various engines built through the thirties, forties and fifties. As my principal interest is in the latter I have not looked too closely at the earlier engines.

Dick Hart is indeed from SA, being a prominent member of the Chrysler Restorers Club there.

[stewartjp]

I can't say I am surprised those guys look like they have a lot of great cars. 

 

What are you researching in terms of Chryslers? The Australian Specials element? If so have you got the ones at Loberthal in the late 1930's on our records? 

[Ray Bell]

I'm not really researching much...

I would like to have a Special with one of these engines, I have an engine and some ideas. It's a 230.

From the AGP book there's a car mentioned at Bathurst in 1938, entered by C Williamson and described as 'much raced' (probably Penrith?), it's shown as 4150cc so might have a ZSB engine or a straight eight. It's doubtful that a 25" engine would have been seen in that capacity at that time.

Lobethal in 1939 has no Chrysler representation, 1946 Bathurst likewise, nor Pt Cook in 1948, the Queensland Bugatti Dodge had a run in '49 at Leyburn and the Wilcox Dodge and the other Bugatti Dodge were entered for Nuriootpa in 1950.

Most successful of all was Ranford at Narrogin in '51, running as high as third and finishing fourth. Other Chrysler-powered cars in the race were the TS Special, Negus' Plymouth Special, Anderson's Chrysler Special and D Page in Ranford's older car.

The Wilcox car ran again in '53 and '53, Negus' car in '53 and '57 as well as the TS in '57.

And it strikes me now that I don't know anything about Anderson's '51 car!

[stewartjp]

Interesting, certainly Bruce Hartwig's Chrysler 6 Cylinder based specials seem to go pretty well when I have seen them at the track.  

 

I believe there was a DeSoto at the Loberthal Grand Prix in 1938 Driven by C.Gartner but I know little more than that at the moment. 

 

Thanks for the info I have found both the Bugatti's in my book. 

[Ray Bell]

Was Gartner in the Grand Prix itself or a supporting event?

There is a bit of a mystery about the cars at Narrogin...

The capacity of the engine of the TS is given as 3560cc, which is 217ci. The Negus car is 3298cc, the Ranford entry 2866cc. Anderson's engine's capacity is not listed, nor is the Page car's.

3298cc is 201ci, the standard Plymouth capacity for several years in the thirties. Whether 217ci is a 25" engine or the smaller engine (which was sold as a 218) I don't know. The 25" engine was intended to cover a range of capacities with variations of its stroke, including capacities close to those of the 201/218/230 engine.

By the time the time the TS was built there would have been plenty of both sizes of engine available.

But what of Ranford's stated small capacity? I can't line that up with anything. A photo I have seems to be clearly enough a 'short block' of the 201/218/230 style, but 2866cc is a mere 175ci.

Poor maths?

[Vitesse2]

One other Aussie DeSoto event I've unearthed was a supporting race for the Patriotic Grand Prix at Applecross, WA on November 11th 1940. A 1929 model won a four-lapper for cars equipped with gas producers! Driver unknown ...

[nexfast]

 

Argentina 

 

December 1933 Carrera De Canals - 

Fernando Nery- DeSoto Special - Winner 

Pedro Bardin - DeSoto Special - Second Place 

 

In Historia Deportiva del Automobiolismo Argentino from Alfredo Parga there is a small sepia photo of Nery's DeSoto and a bigger one of another DeSoto, sadly the one where Domingo Bucci lost his life in the Gran Premio de Arrecifes of 1933. I will try to scan the two of them and pm to you tomorrow.

 

On a lighter note, and forgive me to go slightly off-topic I cannot resist to point you to my favorite DeSoto (a more modern model), the one in the comic strip aptly named The Piranha Club:

 

http://www.bud-grace...esoto-marathon/

 

 

Edited by nexfast, 30 January 2016 - 00:00.

[nexfast]

Another thing: in Jean-Paul Delsaux's book on the History of the Spa 24 Hours, Hommel's co-driver is identified as Robert...

[stewartjp]

Ray -

 

I am not sure yet if the DeSoto was in the Grad Prix itself or in the supporting handicap race. I need to look a bit more into this and see if I can work it out. 

 

In terms of Ranford's mystery engine is it possible that it was a K model DeSoto engine? They displaced 174.9 Cubic inches and 2866cc translates to 174.89cc's.  

 

 

Vitesse2 - 

 

I have over 40 events in which DeSoto's competed in Australia in my records, happy to share if you would like a copy. 

 

In terms of the patriotic Grand Prix in 1940 I have the following-

1st Place - W.Stitt - 1930 DeSoto Straight 8 with Star Gas Producer 

TBC Place C.J Mollison - 1929 DeSoto with Star Gas Producer 

 

nexfast - 

 

Thanks so much for your two replies, if you could scan those photos that would be amazing! 

 

Very interesting regarding Hommel's co driver.  I have a copy of the official records from Spa, the more modern looking document lists Robert and the Old document written on typewriter has Van Howe, I wonder if perhaps his name was Robert Van Howe?

 

Thanks Heaps for all the replies guys! 

[nexfast]

Stewart, you have a PM. Meanwhile, going through the entry list for the Liège-Rome Liège, I have found the following;

 

1931 - N. 3 Boccart/Vanhove, DeSoto 3300; N.14 -  Nothomb (not Northomb, pretty sure about it)/Fery, DeSoto; N.17 Eggen (can this be your Eygen?)/Rigaux, DeSoto 3100 . Only classified finisher Nothomb/Fery 10th.

 

1932 - N.6 Van Hove/Rigaux, DeSoto 6 cyl (8th); N. 17 Nothomb/Nothomb, DeSoto 8cyl (7th)

 

1934 - N. 16 Nothomb/Creat, DeSoto

 

As you can see Van Hove/Vanhove appears twice (and incidentally no one with the surname Robert appears in any list), which might give some juice to your theory that Robert could have been a first name.

 

Unfortunately , no DeSoto pictures in the book I am quoting (Jean-Paul Delsaux's "Marathon de la Route").

 

          .

[Ray Bell]

You're right, Stewart, the K-model engine is the right capacity...

But the photo I have pretty clearly shows the engine to appear to be the same design as the regular engines as in the thirties. Was that engine, perhaps, a forerunner of those?

Do you have pics of a '29 engine?

[stewartjp]

The K model Motor is a classic ZBS design from 1929, full pressure oil system, counter weighted crank, harmonic balancer (I think), etc. So I wouldn't be at all surprised if the later model motors look almost the same, from what I know of the 30's motors. 

 

The big difference with the K motor is that it still had an updraft carburetor, but once the updraft carburetor and manifold are off I think it will look very similar. 

 

Here are some photos from google. 

 

This is a 29' K model from the left 

 

 

And from the right 

 

[IanBone]

Hi Stewart

 

Can you send me your list - I have a number of reference books to scan through as well as magazines and newspapers from that era.....

 

Thank /... Ian

Qld Motorsport Museum

[stewartjp]

Thanks Ian, I will facebook you my documents late tonight or early tomorrow.

[Ray Bell]

Thanks for those pics, Stewart...

They show a clear indication that the 2866cc engine was a forerunner of the later engines, reaching an eventual 3.8-litres. I have a feeling that Ranford might have been pulling a swifty with his nomination at 2.9-litres.

Here's my reasoning:

1. Ranford was totally aware of all the details of these engines, he had built cars with both 6-cylinder and Plymouth 4-cylinder engines before this one.

2. External differences were few enough for almost everyone to be unaware of exactly which version he was using, especially as he had two downdraught carbies fitted.

3. The car was fast. To be running in that company ahead of all the other Chrysler-powered cars and up with the Ford V8s, he must have had decent power.

4. The potential for handicap advantages by nominating the smaller capacity might well have paid dividends as time went on.

[Ray Bell]

This Dave van Dal photo of Ranford's 4-cylinder Plymouth Speedcar has just surfaced on another thread:



An amazing pic from the early fifties.

[stewartjp]

Nexfast - Thanks for the PM! Thanks also for finding these extra records. You are very right on the spelling of Nothomb (I struggle with spelling at times). Nothomb is how it is on my formal records also. 

 

I am very interested to find out more about that event, it sounds gruelling and awesome!

 

The Cars listed at 3100cc's will be the 1930 Model CK Model DeSoto 6 Cylinder.

 

Ray -  Regarding point 2 are you able to count the Welsh plugs in the Left hand side of the motor in Ranfords engine photo? I know on 8 cylinder models early motors have 2 welsh plugs and late ones have 4.  Perhaps this also changed on 6's? The other give away on later model 8's is that there is an extra set of ribbing about 1 inch above where the sump bolts on, compared to the early models which only have the rib the sump bolts too.

 

Which Plymouth engine is it in the car you have share the photo of? The Q model engine that started out in the Maxwell? 

 

Thanks again Guys! 

 

That said It would have been very clever of him to use a K model cylinder block and put a later model crankshaft into it. 

[stewartjp]

I have found a Video of the Bucci DeSoto in Argentina! 

 

Here for all to enjoy

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=lzjYc2XCZEc 

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by stewartjp
.....Ray -  Regarding point 2 are you able to count the Welsh plugs in the Left hand side of the motor in Ranfords engine photo? I know on 8 cylinder models early motors have 2 welsh plugs and late ones have 4. Perhaps this also changed on 6s? The other give away on later model 8's is that there is an extra set of ribbing about 1 inch above where the sump bolts on, compared to the early models which only have the rib the sump bolts too.....

The photo in question barely shows the head... but it does show enough to determine that this is the engine family...

The welch plugs do change later on, another thing to change is the depth of the water jacket around the cylinder walls. But you can see there are things which didn't change.
 

.....That said It would have been very clever of him to use a K model cylinder block and put a later model crankshaft into it.

I wouldn't be surprised, but he could simply have relied on a lack of common knowledge of the engines.

.....Which Plymouth engine is it in the car you have share the photo of? The Q model engine that started out in the Maxwell?

Yes, the tough and useful four that put the A-model engine into the shade.

[nexfast]

Stewart, just came across another DeSoto, though called a special, in South America, Driven by a certain Alberto Rebay, a brazilian driver, it appeared in Circuito de Campinas in 1953. There is a photo albeit  taken from a distance and of poor quality in this site:

 

http://www.bandeiraq...em Campinas.htm

[stewartjp]

Thanks for that Nexfast! 

 

I have received my copy of the David Blumlein book today which details the history of the Spa 24 Hour Race and photo which is also posted on doubledeclutch.com has me thinking. 

 

There is an American style saloon to the right of the image which as best I can tell has all details consistent with a DeSoto CF8 Sedan.  I am wondering if anyone might be able to confirm if it is ?  Note the coupe number 17 in the background is a Graham Paige 

 

 

Picture below 

 

[nexfast]

Stewart, just came across another DeSoto, though called a special, in South America, Driven by a certain Alberto Rebay, a brazilian driver, it appeared in Circuito de Campinas in 1953. There is a photo albeit  taken from a distance and of poor quality in this site:

 

http://www.bandeiraq...em Campinas.htm

Stewart, The same picture with better resolution here:

 

http://www.campinasv...m-campinas.html

[stewartjp]

Thanks Nexfast, 

 

There is a video on youtube from the Prêmio Lucas Nogueira Garcez - Interlagos held on the 13th of May 1951 and with Alberto Rebay driving a DeSoto Special. 

 

These are some stills I have taken out of the Video. 

 

 

[stewartjp]

I have also been working with another member who has been helping me research the Helmer Carlsson car in Swedens 1933 Summer Grand Prix. 

 

I have extracted this photo of the car from the youtube video of the event.  The Helmer Carlsson DeSoto Straight 8 is car number 8 in the photo. 

 

 

This is the youtube link - 

 

Cheers 

 

Stewart 

Edited by stewartjp, 09 March 2016 - 01:15.