32 replies to this topic

[EarlswoodBill]

4WD was tried, and subsequently banned in F1 and at Indy. One of the principal exponents was Harry Ferguson Research. We are producing a book on the history of the company and I'm looking to acquire images for it, of competition cars with the FF 4WD system. Can anyone help, please with good quality images of the following cars, period shots or modern preserved, static or in action?

 

Formula 1: Lotus 56B & 63, Matra MS84, BRM P67 (also Cisitalia-Porsche 4WD); Williams FW07 (not 4WD, I know, but used FFD viscous coupling in diff)

 

Indy: Novi-Ferguson P104 (the original) ('Pyjama' lineup, esp in colour would be great); Novi 4WD Granatelli chassis no9, either in 1965 or 1966 form; Paxton Turbine, 'Silent Sam'; Lotus 56 and 64

 

Sports cars: Felday 5 and Felday 6; McLaren-Oldsmobile M1A with Ferguson-Teramala transmission 

 

Also rally/rallycross cars: Audi Quattro S2 (and earlier, for comparison); Peugeot 205 T16; Lancia Delta 4WD/Integrale; Metro 6R4; Ford RS200; Escort Cosworth 4x4; Escort RS1700T; Capri 4x4

 

We are happy to pay a realistic going rate for one-off use

 

The book is scheduled for publication in late October. I hope someone can help, please.

[AAGR]

The Escort RS1700T did not have four-wheel-drive - it was a front engine/rear-drive car.

[EarlswoodBill]

True, but it did use an FFD viscous diff. That is, according to the list of FFD jobs provided to me by the former engineering director. I recognise your initials, I think...

[AAGR]

I hope you get to the bottom of the 'viscous diff' story, for it was being used for years before it officially existed. Certainly the Ford 'works' rally team were enthusiastic users in the late 1970s, but always knew they were not first ....

Edited by AAGR, 16 February 2016 - 16:23.

[EarlswoodBill]

Working hard on it! Talbot were early users, courtesy of Des O'Dell, as I'm sure you know (and probably have written about) but whether they were first in the rally world, I don't know. 

[Henri Greuter]

4WD was tried, and subsequently banned in F1 and at Indy. One of the principal exponents was Harry Ferguson Research. We are producing a book on the history of the company and I'm looking to acquire images for it, of competition cars with the FF 4WD system. Can anyone help, please with good quality images of the following cars, period shots or modern preserved, static or in action?

 

Formula 1: Lotus 56B & 63, Matra MS84, BRM P67 (also Cisitalia-Porsche 4WD); Williams FW07 (not 4WD, I know, but used FFD viscous coupling in diff)

 

Indy: Novi-Ferguson P104 (the original) ('Pyjama' lineup, esp in colour would be great); Novi 4WD Granatelli chassis no9, either in 1965 or 1966 form; Paxton Turbine, 'Silent Sam'; Lotus 56 and 64

 

Sports cars: Felday 5 and Felday 6; McLaren-Oldsmobile M1A with Ferguson-Teramala transmission 

 

Also rally/rallycross cars: Audi Quattro S2 (and earlier, for comparison); Peugeot 205 T16; Lancia Delta 4WD/Integrale; Metro 6R4; Ford RS200; Escort Cosworth 4x4; Escort RS1700T; Capri 4x4

 

We are happy to pay a realistic going rate for one-off use

 

The book is scheduled for publication in late October. I hope someone can help, please.

 

 

Have you opened your private message box already?

 

 

 

Henri

[EarlswoodBill]

Yes I have, thank you. I replied directly from my email server, but clearly this did not reach you. As a new member to this forum I am not clear about  how this form of messaging works. My reply reads:

 

Dear Henri

Great to hear from you. I heard from Bill McGuire that you were on this forum and I hoped you'd respond. Well done too for getting P104 to Goodwood. One of FFD's engineers saw it there the first time and he said the sight of it had him nearly in tears!

I do have your Novi book (part 2) and it has been a very great help to me in this project. Helpful and fascinating too has been the amount of correspondence and documents that have survived between Andy Granatelli and Tony Rolt over the whole Indy episode. This is in the Coventry City archive. I've seen outline plans of a proposed rear engine car for 1965, to be fitted with a Teramala stepless transmission, no less, and Andy's letter to Tony telling him that rather than spend the £2,500 quoted for a second Ferguson car, Vince had built a 4x4 car of his own! (This of course was chassis no9, that was wrecked in practice in '65). I wonder if Vince copied one of the Kurtis Kraft chassis and maybe trimmed it down a bit, so he could fit the FF centre diff that Tony sent over to him.

I'll take your recommendation and look at the LAT files, but please do keep in touch.

Best regards

Bill

[Henri Greuter]

Yes I have, thank you. I replied directly from my email server, but clearly this did not reach you. As a new member to this forum I am not clear about  how this form of messaging works. My reply reads:

 

Dear Henri

Great to hear from you. I heard from Bill McGuire that you were on this forum and I hoped you'd respond. Well done too for getting P104 to Goodwood. One of FFD's engineers saw it there the first time and he said the sight of it had him nearly in tears!

I do have your Novi book (part 2) and it has been a very great help to me in this project. Helpful and fascinating too has been the amount of correspondence and documents that have survived between Andy Granatelli and Tony Rolt over the whole Indy episode. This is in the Coventry City archive. I've seen outline plans of a proposed rear engine car for 1965, to be fitted with a Teramala stepless transmission, no less, and Andy's letter to Tony telling him that rather than spend the £2,500 quoted for a second Ferguson car, Vince had built a 4x4 car of his own! (This of course was chassis no9, that was wrecked in practice in '65). I wonder if Vince copied one of the Kurtis Kraft chassis and maybe trimmed it down a bit, so he could fit the FF centre diff that Tony sent over to him.

I'll take your recommendation and look at the LAT files, but please do keep in touch.

Best regards

Bill

 

 

 

Bill,

 

Thanks first.

Do you have an email addres on which I can contact you?

 

Henri

[EarlswoodBill]

Yes, it's bill.munro99 (at) btinternet.com 

Edited by Vitesse2, 17 February 2016 - 20:32.
Removed email link to foil spammers

[Doug Nye]

Bill - contact me direct if you wish - our GP Library archive includes many Ferguson P99 photos...and shots of the Ferguson-transmission Indy Lotuses, etc...

 

DCN

[Lee Nicolle]

I have driven a 4wd Fergusen,,, tractor!

[group7]

perhaps not exactly what your after, but there were a number of Mustangs converted to FWD, with the Ferguson system.  I believe  a  couple of '65s. and at least one '69 body style. there was an article in Classic and Sportscar ? I did post a link on the forum some time ago, but can't find it at the moment. if you google about you should be able to find some more information. here is a link to something I found, after a quick search.

 

http://blog.hemmings...on-4wd-mustang/

 

Mike (group7) in Canada 

[EarlswoodBill]

Thanks for your reply, Mike. There were indeed several Mustangs converted, including 2 Mk1s (a dark blue '65, shown in your link and a poppy red '66), a '69 Cobra Jet fastback (Again, shown in your link), a mint green '69 305 convertible and couple of 1969 models built for Borg Warner, to see if BW were prepared to tool up to produce the conversion equipment for production. Sadly, BW said no. There was also a burgundy 1965 car bought at the same time as the blue car and fitted only with Maxaret anti-skid brakes for comparison.

The blue '65 is in a museum in Florida now, and the owner has sent me a huge number of new images of it.

The Mustang, particularly the poppy red '66 was a particular favourite of the MD, Tony Rolt, who reckoned it was the best conversion they did in those days.

[BRG]

Did anyone ever venture onto the track in a Jenson Interceptor FF?  

[EarlswoodBill]

Good question, and I don't know the answer! I have contacts in the JOC, so I'll ask. I suspect not, as they were much more expensive than, say a DB5 or 6. I don't know if the rules would have allowed 4WD - I'm not a follower of motor sport generally, so am not well up on such matters

[Adrian Beese]

Is my memory playing tricks or were there a couple of 4wd Ford Capris built with Fergi trans?

[AAGR]

No memory playing tricks at all. Ford Motorsport at Boreham built three V6-engined 4WD Capris in 1969 and 1970, to campaign in TV rallycross events, where Roger Clark, among others, drove them. All the transmission stuff came from Harry Ferguson Research (as, I believe, the company was called in those days.)

Edited by AAGR, 20 February 2016 - 12:27.

[EarlswoodBill]

Thanks, AAGR for clarifying the numbers. This part of the story, the GKN involvement and the evolution of the Viscous Control is very unclear at the moment, mostly because anybody who was working there in a senior position is now dead and sources  on line or elsewhere that I have found do not focus on the business dealings.

Adrian, they built the cars with HFR designed and developed 4WD components. To clarify the story of the Ferguson-related companies, Harry Ferguson Research was formed in 1950 by taking over Dixon-Rolt Developments Ltd. from the until Ferguson's death they concentrated on developing research cars with the intent of selling the entire package of full-time 4WD, Maxaret anti-skid brakes, Ferguson's own flat-4 engine and Teramala stepless transmission. After Ferguson died, HFR focussed on adapting the technology, a 'universal system' of a transfer box to mate to existing drivelines (which went into the Capri). In 1971 the chairman, Tony Sheldon, who was Ferguson's son-in-law decided enough was enough and closed HFR. Tony Rolt, who had been with the whole business from day one formed FF Developments to continue the work. FFD was taken over by Ricardo in 1994 and is now part of Ricardo MTC

[bradbury west]

Adrian, I recall that a batch of 4wd Ford Zephyrs were built up for police use, pre Capri days perhaps.
Roger Lund

[EarlswoodBill]

Yes, Bradbury West. The Zephyrs - 22 in all were built for UK police forces, from 1967 onwards. The 4WD V6 powertrain was very similar to that of the Capris', transmission excepting, as the Zephyrs had auto boxes and there were LHD and RHD versions with the front driveshaft on different sides. It was also installed in a Reliant GTE and offered to Gilbern for the Invader and to TVR. The last manifestation of the Essex V6 was in the Stonefield Aall terrain truck, although that had a VC rather than a mechanical control unit. The 2.6 German 4WD Capris of around 1975 used VCs. Tony Rolt had a 4WD Zodiac estate, nicknamed The Shed. People used to think it had a Broadspeed engine, but it didn't. It went that fast because Rolt used to the full every advantage the 4WD system gave the car

[Stephen W]

I believe that at least one FF Jenson Interceptor was hillclimbed in the Southern area, try Longleat.

[EarlswoodBill]

Thanks, Stephen. I'll check that out. I suspect the sheer bulk of the car was a handicap on a tight hill, 4WD or not. The suspension must have been stiffened if he were to achieve much.

[EarlswoodBill]

But then there is the riddle of what happened to the GT44 - the proposed 4WD version of the GT40. Just after the  GT40's first run at Le Mans in 1964, Roy Lunn contact HFR with the idea of making a 4WD GT40, the GT44. HFR's project number was P108, codenamed 'Slough'. The surviving correspondence is very sparse, but reference in it to "changes in steering and suspension" following tests suggests that a prototype might actually have been built, although of course these changes may only have existed on the drawing board. Ferguson's certainly had a control unit capable of taking the power of the engine - they'd built one for the Novi Indy car that had begun the race, but was caught up in the dreadful fire that year

[flightlessbird]

Didn't a Fergusson F1 car win the New Zealand GP in the early 60s?

[Tim Murray]

No - the Ferguson P99 retired from the 1963 event due to gearbox failure. Its best result from its 1963 trip to Australia and New Zealand was second place in the Lakeside International, driven by Graham Hill.

[Doug Nye]

A police officer who had considerable experience of using one of the FF 4WD Zephyrs told me that the most marked effect of its all-wheel drive was that they had accidents at higher speeds...

 

DCN

[EarlswoodBill]

Sounds about right, Doug! BTW did you see my personal message? Being a newbie I'm not sure about how to navigate around this forum

[Belmondo]

Did the Paul Emery twin-engined Mini a) have drive to all wheels and b) make it on to the tracks?

[EarlswoodBill]

Rob Walker took P99 to Australia and NZ for what I understand to be the precursor of the Tasman series. Thus, flightlessbird these were not Grand Prix races. In any case, it was fitted with the 2.5 engine for this tour. Graham Hill was the main driver, with Innes Ireland as backup. He stood in when Hill had to return to England for a tonsillectomy. According to the info I have, Ireland did fairly well in NZ - 3rd in the Vic Hudson Memorial Trophy at Levin and another 3rd in the Teratonga Trophy at Invercargill.

If anyone can clarify the situation re the first Tasman series - whether 1963 was as I think a precursor rather than the first of the series proper, I'd appreciate it

[Tim Murray]

Yes - the series proper began in 1964.

[EarlswoodBill]

Thanks, Tim, much appreciated

[Vitesse2]

Rob Walker took P99 to Australia and NZ for what I understand to be the precursor of the Tasman series. Thus, flightlessbird these were not Grand Prix races

While they were not run to the FIA's then-current Formula 1, it's incorrect to say they 'were not Grand Prix races'. Don't fall into the modern trap which states that a Grand Prix is a Formula 1 race to the exclusion of everything else. Until 1963, both the Australian and New Zealand Grands Prix were run as Formule Libre events. From 1964, when the Tasman Series was established, a 2.5 litre capacity limit was imposed, which excluded the few remaining home-grown big-engined specials that had pretty much dominated Australian and New Zealand racing between the 1930s and the late 1950s.

[EarlswoodBill]

Thanks for the clarification. We do tend to think of Grands Prix as only F1 races now. I'm grateful to all who have helped with this broader topic, in whatever field