53 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

1) The drivers (real men, not kids)?

2) The cars (simple)?

3) the show (many yellows)?

4) The history (as it get born)?

5) The circuits?

6) Anything other?

 

And what makes the 2016 season so special?

[V8 Fireworks]

Tony George, that is all you need to know. 

 

Without strong open wheel racing, the path of NASCAR was easy.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 16 February 2016 - 19:58.

[Marklar]

The turning left

[PayasYouRace]

NASCAR has a rich and extensive history which means that there's meaning to the overall product, even if it is also very commercial and crass. It's got a character that you don't find in other types of racing. Where else would you get 40 thundering beasts racing at near to 200 mph with mere inches between them?

 

It's far from my favourite form of racing, but at least it's a bit different and it doesn't pretend to be something it's not.

[Jimisgod]

It isn't, the problem was oval-based open wheel committed suicide in 1996 thanks to Tony George.

 

Indycar was bigger than NASCAR before that happened.

Edited by Jimisgod, 16 February 2016 - 20:22.

[messy]

It's the whole show, the whole atmosphere of it. The drivers are huge celebrities, the crew chiefs are celebrities, the sponsors are huge business, it's loud, glitzy, supported by film stars and millions of passionate fans from every walk of life, comparable probably to the level of support premier league football has on a Saturday here. You can tell watching a race production, that it's all huge. That sweeps you away and makes you take notice, in a way F1 used to but just doesn't now.

I'm not a huge fan of NASCAR by any means - but watch a race live and you do get swept up in the whole event big time.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It isn't, the problem was oval-based open wheel committed suicide in 1996 thanks to Tony George.

 

Indycar was bigger than NASCAR before that happened.

 

I'm not sure this is actually the case...

[JHSingo]

Is it special, still?

 

I struggle to take NASCAR seriously because it seems...manipulated. Particularly at Daytona. Last few pole sitters have seemed more than just coincidences. Danica Patrick for her first start in '13, Austin Dillon on the #3's first race back in '14, Gordon in his final 500 last year...heck, if Stewart wasn't out injured, I bet he'd be on pole this year!

At the risk of starting some "my series is better than yours" argument, I just can't warm to NASCAR. It seems to have even more inept leaders than F1, and that's really saying something.
 

As for the drivers, don't get me started. I find almost all of them highly unlikable.

 

They really need to cut all the "for the show" nonsense, lose all the artificial stuff, and then maybe it'll be magic again. Because it sure as heck isn't right now, and it really doesn't surprise me that viewing figures have been on the decline for several years.

Edited by JHSingo, 16 February 2016 - 22:10.

[phrank]

I'm not sure this is actually the case...

It was also very popular outside America at the time, so maybe in total bigger?

Edited by phrank, 16 February 2016 - 22:11.

[chunder27]

Not  a lot to be honest, as a spectacle it is fairly subdued.

[SenorSjon]

Whenever I see it, I see mostly empty grandstands. I watched part of one race last year. The freak yellows and manipulation put me off big time.

[loki]

Whenever I see it, I see mostly empty grandstands. I watched part of one race last year. The freak yellows and manipulation put me off big time.

Part of one race last season hardly gives you enough information to have an informed opinion.  Many of the Cup races have over 100k in attendance.   Daytona just announced all the grandstand seats are sold.  TV averages about 5 million viewers a race, Daytona will be more, the road courses less.  Mostly all on pay TV now.  With the exception of the bubble years on the early 2000s the sport is more popular than ever.

[TecnoRacing]

Tony George, that is all you need to know. 

 

Without strong open wheel racing, the path of NASCAR was easy.

 

The Nascar boom started long before the Indycar split...

[MattPete]

I grew up in the South and found the whole NASCAR thing baffling.

[paulb]

Is it special or ubiquitious?

[Vettelari]

Growing up in Kentucky, what made it so special to me was watching races with my dad and grandpa as a child. The way that they portray the drivers as being a guy you could BS with while drinking a beer is enticing. The constant action, artificial or not, keeps me on the edge of my seat. Seeing 43 drivers focus for 500 miles on improving their position seems like an impossible task while driving 200 MPH. I think the popularity of NASCAR in America can be credited to the focus on the drivers over the cars/technology. Plus it is one of those things where if you attend a race in person you will appreciate the sport for the rest of your life. I have attended nearly every professional sporting event & racing series out there. NASCAR puts on a show as good or better than them all. It is impossible to have a bad time at a NASCAR race, no matter how hard you try. All in my completely worthless opinion, as usual.

Edited by Vettelari, 17 February 2016 - 01:54.

[SB]

The turning left

 

In fact, because they are not doing right

[loki]

The Nascar boom started long before the Indycar split...

The greatest growth in the boom didn't happen until after the split but stock car racing was on an upswing in the 90s but really started hitting stride in the late 90s.  It was primarily due to TV exposure and other press outside the traditional southern roots of the sport.  At the time of the split Indycar racings, specifically the 500 had a much larger TV footprint and more races with 100k plus crowds.  The split probably did tilt popularity as it was during the split was when NASCAR really started to make inroads outside the south.  They weren't necessarily taking viewers from Indycar by some sort of assault though more of an accident of timing than any sort of plan by the Frances to capitalize on the split.

[Jimisgod]

I'm not sure this is actually the case...

 

I got the impression that Indycar was for the North and NASCAR was for the South pre-1996. Then the split forced one half to go more international and the other half to borrow tracks off the NASCAR boys. NASCAR filled the void.

[AustinF1]

I grew up in Tennessee & Texas with NASCAR. It's what made me a motorsport fan. Well, that and going to the sprint car races with my Dad. It was amazing. Petty. Pearson. Yarborough. Baker. And on and on. It's a mere shadow of that to me now, much the way F1 is a mere shadow of its old self in many ways. I rarely bother to watch a NASCAR race these days.

 

I've passed on the sprint car addiction to my boys, and the F1 addiction as well. NASCAR, not that much.

Edited by AustinF1, 17 February 2016 - 04:22.

[EarnardBeccelstone]

It's a guilty pleasure. Loud, dumb and fun.

 

As to why its so popular in the US:

It knows its target audience and markets appropriately

It's fan friendly

There's no real competition

It appeals to US notions of masculinity, particularly those in the Southern states

It has turned its individual personalities - drivers, owners, crew chiefs ect - into stars which further helps market the sport

 

I think of NASCAR as the WWE of motorsport. I can admire the performances, I can even appreciate the sport, bu there's no way I can take it seriously

[Gorma]

Simple men driving simple cars on a simple track in front of a simple audience.

[V8 Fireworks]

 

It's fan friendly

 

 

The races are too long IMO.

[loki]

I grew up in Tennessee & Texas with NASCAR. It's what made me a motorsport fan. Well, that and going to the sprint car races with my Dad. It was amazing. Petty. Pearson. Yarborough. Baker. And on and on. It's a mere shadow of that to me now, much the way F1 is a mere shadow of its old self in many ways. I rarely bother to watch a NASCAR race these days.

 

I've passed on the sprint car addiction to my boys, and the F1 addiction as well. NASCAR, not that much.

Take them kids to Eldora...  Or the Chili Bowl, it's not too far from you guys.   

 

One thing that cracks me up about threads like this are posts from people that don't watch stock car racing, have never been to the US but still somehow think their opinions are informed enough comment when in reality they are playing against worn stereotypes.

[SenorSjon]

Part of one race last season hardly gives you enough information to have an informed opinion.  Many of the Cup races have over 100k in attendance.   Daytona just announced all the grandstand seats are sold.  TV averages about 5 million viewers a race, Daytona will be more, the road courses less.  Mostly all on pay TV now.  With the exception of the bubble years on the early 2000s the sport is more popular than ever.

 

I've skipped past multiple races where I've seen a few laps with near empty stands. I watched the title decider longer, but when someone not in the script was winning, there suddenly was a FCY to prevent that from happening. When I heard the winner had missed half the season, I had enough. I watched it early nineties and it was a lot of fun. It went from public tv when Eurosport and Sportnet merged and Nascar was axed. Now it is behind the paywall in Europe.

[Prost1997T]

The decline didn't set in till around 2004 (Chase, debris yellows etc). I don't think France Jr's strategy of chasing the casual fan from stick\ball sports is working - they've got a megabucks TV contract but at the cost of eroding their fanbase further.

 

There have been some good races from time to time though, such as:

 

 

(Yes, 16 year old kids that can actually road race without ramming each other GP2-style. With almost zero caution laps. In vehicles with more power than downforce. Amazing isn't it?)

Edited by Prost1997T, 17 February 2016 - 09:12.

[HistoryFan]

 

 

Without strong open wheel racing, the path of NASCAR was easy.

 

But NASCAR was bigger than IndyCar in the 60s and 70s as well. You could earn much more money in NASCAR than IndyCar I've read.
 

[HistoryFan]

supported by film stars

 

But you have film stars in other series as well: Leonardo di Caprio in Formula E, we had Newman and Letterman in IndyCar and so on.

What film stars supports NASCAR and why?

 

[HistoryFan]

 

They really need to cut all the "for the show" nonsense,

 

what nonsenses do you mean?

 

I think they turn the other way round with the caution clock in the truck series...

 

[HistoryFan]

Daytona just announced all the grandstand seats are sold.

 

How many visitors are expected in Daytona in total?

 

[HistoryFan]

It has turned its individual personalities - drivers, owners, crew chiefs ect - into stars which further helps market the sport

 

 

But in what way did they better work in this point?

Just to keep the cars simple what makes the drivers not the cars to stars?

 

[SenorSjon]

Are you working on your postcount?

 

Nonsense like:

Caution clock

Chase

Random Yellows for debris, commercials, birds flying past the track, rain in Ethiopia, etc.

[AustinF1]

The decline didn't set in till around 2004 (Chase, debris yellows etc). I don't think France Jr's strategy of chasing the casual fan from stick\ball sports is working - they've got a megabucks TV contract but at the cost of eroding their fanbase further.

 

There have been some good races from time to time though, such as:

 

 

(Yes, 16 year old kids that can actually road race without ramming each other GP2-style. With almost zero caution laps. In vehicles with more power than downforce. Amazing isn't it?)

That's the strategy in every sport these days - chasing the casual fan/viewer. They already have the hardcore fan, and they know it. TV's screwing up pretty much every sport.

 

Re: NASCAR on road courses: It's generally very good racing and a lot of fun to watch. It's not like the old days when nobody knew how to turn right and road courses were anathema. NASCAR drivers these days com e mostly from karting. They know road racing.

 

Sorta related: I watched the Kurt Busch & Mark Winterbottom at COTA, swapping cars. While the V8SC won out on lap time, it was a lot closer than most would think it would be.

 

 

Edited by AustinF1, 17 February 2016 - 13:49.

[AustinF1]

But NASCAR was bigger than IndyCar in the 60s and 70s as well. You could earn much more money in NASCAR than IndyCar I've read.
 

Yeah I don't think that's true. And while drivers can earn more money in NASCAR than IndyCar now (which is why most young drivers now are trying to get there over IndyCar), that wasn't so much the case 35 years ago. There wasn't nearly as much money in NASCAR back then.

Edited by AustinF1, 17 February 2016 - 13:50.

[HistoryFan]

My source: Helmut Zwickl "Fünfter Gang voll" from 1973.

[loki]

How many visitors are expected in Daytona in total?

 

A couple hundred thousand in total.  It's a big event, more than a week. Some won't stay the whole week, some won't go to the Cup race, only the other races.  Some won't go to any of the races.  There are parties, events, presentations, plenty to do for free or cheap.  It's that way at every Cup date though Daytona more than others with the possible exception of Vegas, Bristol and Texas.

 

Several of us here have in person, first hand direct knowledge of these events.  Do you?

[loki]

But NASCAR was bigger than IndyCar in the 60s and 70s as well. You could earn much more money in NASCAR than IndyCar I've read.
 

In the 60s and 70s the Indianapolis 500 was far and way the largest, most prestigious race in the country.  Nascar was a regional sport where someone could make a living going from track to track but it wasn't a unified series the way it is now.  It was about going from race to race and not a series championship.  In fact at many tracks the top drivers were paid appearance fees to ensure they would come to the race.    Indycar wasn't a series in and of itself back then.

 

Nascar had zero national footprint whereas the Indianapolis 500 was famous all across the country.  The 500 was live on the radio, delayed on TV and covered in virtually every newspaper in the country.  Nascar had none of that.

Edited by loki, 17 February 2016 - 19:34.

[Red17]

Because Nascar is everything F1 already is, except they don't hide it. Drivers are also more genuine, even if they are douche-bags, you think Maldonado is a mobile danger? Watch how Kenseth literally put Logano out of contention for the title last year.

[tampaguy]

Come on guys all racing pales in comparison to years past ! Especially F1 BORING ! Don't stand there and complain about NASCAR , at least it's not on the verge of Bankruptcy like a lot of other sanctioning bodies. Let's face it they did just invest 400 million on upgrades to Daytona, can't think of many other tracks around that long upgrading for the future.

[scheivlak]

It's not just a sport, it's a culture - for better or for worse.

[JHSingo]

what nonsenses do you mean?

 

I think they turn the other way round with the caution clock in the truck series...

 

I think this covers it...

 

Are you working on your postcount?

 

Nonsense like:

Caution clock

Chase

Random Yellows for debris, commercials, birds flying past the track, rain in Ethiopia, etc.

 

Thanks for saving me the effort, SenorSjon.

It's not a pure racing series by any stretch of the imagination. The comparison to WWE is very valid, and it's why NASCAR doesn't get taken very seriously at an international level.

Sure, I like exciting racing...but NASCAR is too far the other way. It's false, everything seems set up and manipulated. And it doesn't really make any effort to get away from the stereotype that it's just a sport for drunk rednecks either.

[jonpollak]

Jeez Louise ..... WTF this thread is like Room 101 for racing eegits. That said.. Love the Yellow for rain in Ethiopia

[SenorSjon]

I think this covers it...

 

 

Thanks for saving me the effort, SenorSjon.

It's not a pure racing series by any stretch of the imagination. The comparison to WWE is very valid, and it's why NASCAR doesn't get taken very seriously at an international level.

Sure, I like exciting racing...but NASCAR is too far the other way. It's false, everything seems set up and manipulated. And it doesn't really make any effort to get away from the stereotype that it's just a sport for drunk rednecks either.

 

This. I never feel the winner has really earned it, but was drawn to be the winner and every effort is made to be sure he wins it. Next race another person is the lucky one. Rinse and repeat to make for a 'tense' championship. Women have soap operas, men have NASCAR.

[Dunc]

I don't really follow Nascar but from what I can see I think a lot of its success comes from knowing its audience, being fan friendly and not f**king about with the formula that made it a success.  For all the 'artificial' changes it has made the fans keep coming back for more.  I don't know how true the stereotype of it as a sport for North America's, ahem, lower orders, is but if that's your audience keep them satisfied.  

Edited by Dunc, 18 February 2016 - 11:04.

[AustinF1]

This. I never feel the winner has really earned it, but was drawn to be the winner and every effort is made to be sure he wins it. Next race another person is the lucky one. Rinse and repeat to make for a 'tense' championship. Women have soap operas, men have NASCAR.

Or better yet, we have the F1 paddock...

[Branislav]

 

What makes NASCAR so special?

Everything. And most of all competition.

[HistoryFan]

 

 

Several of us here have in person, first hand direct knowledge of these events.  Do you?

I was at the Indy 500 last year and the 24h Daytona this year.A

And I am going to the IndyCar season-opener in St. Petersburg and the 100th Indy 500 as well.

But I unfortunately never was at a NASCAR race.

 

[sopa]

To try to give a general pondering...

 

Initially NASCAR was to Americans what BTCC was to British, DTM to Germans, V8 Supercars to Australians. A strong touring car (in US case stock car) championship. Simple cars with which the audience can relate to, and mostly local drivers/heros driving them. Obviously for Americans it has been culturally popular to race on ovals, so they raced there as opposed to circuits, where the series of (most) other nations have taken place.

 

Why is NASCAR so popular? Well, first of all - USA is a damn big country, and if something is big there, it also catches attention in the rest of the world. Look at American football. Also - USA has a unique open-wheel-racing tradition. They have their on traditions, their "own stuff" - IndyCar, and not so much F1. As mentioned, the weakness of IndyCar has helped to bring NASCAR further forward.

 

Also the uniqueness of racing on ovals helps. It is not just tied to NASCAR, but includes racing traditions in USA in general. So this "difference" catches attention.

[Alfisti]

I was becoming a fan 10 years ago but then it got stupid. Races are far too long, way too many fake yellows, the points system is utterly absurd ... the whole thing is contrived. 

[OfficeLinebacker]

-parity (Any Given Sunday)

-lots of cars on track at the same time (in the same category)

-car look like the ones we drive on the street

-rubbin' is racin' (You can have significant contact and still be competitive)

 

Edit:  it's definitely not the circuits.  90% are boring as ****.

 

The best races in NASCAR happen in the lower series on great tracks like Circuit Gilles Villeneuve and Road America, that the top tier don't even go to.

Edited by OfficeLinebacker, 18 February 2016 - 15:09.