Administrator
Posted 21 February 2016 - 17:34
I am sorry to have to announce that Eric 'Winkle' Brown has died at the grand old age of 97. A sad day for those of us on TNF who have an affection for old warbirds and an admiration of that extraordinary generation of test pilots.
http://www.edinburgh...at-97-1-4035347
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Posted 21 February 2016 - 17:38
A real character in the best sense of the word, a truly remarkable man, can anyone beat his record for the number of different planes flown?
Member
Posted 21 February 2016 - 17:47
Member
Posted 21 February 2016 - 18:22
Very sad news, and unexpected despite his age of 97 - since he appeared to be completely indestructible. A man of immense natural talent, ability and courage - a very great Briton indeed... I hugely recommend his 'Wings of the Luftwaffe' book, on test flying myriad German types towards the war's end, and beyond, and also his 'Wings of the Navy' - both rather better than his autobiography I felt. One anecdote which has stayed with me was his introduction to American Grumman single-seat fighters. As his name infers 'Winkle' was physically a very small man and he found the roomy cockpit of what became the FAA Grumman Martlet enormously spacious. So spacious that a new evasive manoeuvre was discussed in which he would simply unfasten his harness and "dodge about inside...".
What a wonderful generation they all were.
DCN
Edited by Doug Nye, 21 February 2016 - 21:26.
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Posted 21 February 2016 - 19:57
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Posted 21 February 2016 - 20:04
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Posted 21 February 2016 - 20:06
He flew a Komet, and lived to write a report - Remarkable man and a life well lived.
Member
Posted 21 February 2016 - 21:46
Oh that's sad. Another great aviator lost (but probably now piloting his own personal cloud).
Member
Posted 21 February 2016 - 22:09
Tremedously sad news. I only discovered him a few years ago, but greatly enjoyed his autobiography. In fact, I had suggested to my father that he might like Brown's tome on the Miles M-52; if he doesn't buy a copy, I'm going to!
When you consider that Brown not only survived the Komet, as mentioned above, but also the de Haviland DH-108, in addition to a bad crash in (IIRC) a Vampire testing a sprung landing deck concept which would have rendered undercarriages obsolete on FAA planes had it been developed, it is a testimony to his talent that he survived his career.
R.I.P.
Member
Posted 21 February 2016 - 23:01
He was due to give the de Havilland Memorial Lecture at Hatfield in April this year and of course we knew we'd have as good an evening as we had had on his previous visits.
When asked what a DH Mosquito was like to fly, he said "It was a pilot's aeroplane - in fact I never flew a de Havilland product that was not a pilot's aeroplane" which comment is only a lasting memory now.
We also heard a very similar comment to the one Doug refers to about a roomy cockpit, but it was about the Chance-Vought Corsair and EMB reckoned it was because the C-V Chief Test Pilot was 6'4" tall. He told us that his lack of height enabled him to survive his investigation of the DH 108 after Geoffrey de Havilland's fatal accident, as it was concluded that during the rapid pitching oscillation that occurred Geoffrey (who was not short) had his neck broken when his head was hit by the cockpit canopy. Not having been killed thus, EMB was able to regain control and report the details.
Member
Posted 22 February 2016 - 07:35
I think he also held the record for carrier landings as well as different types of aircraft flown. Very much one of a kind.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b04nvgq1
I heard somewhere, so no doubt apocryphal, that the USN tasked a pilot to try and beat his carrier landing record but the pilot threw in the towel, still well short of the record, and refused to carry on any further.
Member
Posted 22 February 2016 - 07:50
What is remarkable is that like Norman Dewis(re whom it is now impossible to open a car mag without seeing him ) very few people had ever heard of Captain Brown until very recently. Is this some millenial thing where we are anxious to preserve the few links to the past I wonder? I ask this seriously - and don't deprecate the man - who seemed utterly extraordinary.
Member
Posted 22 February 2016 - 12:18
He lived only a few miles away from me and I was lucky enough to go to two talks he gave to a local model aeroplane flying club (his fee: a glass of red wine). His talks were off the cuff without notes and complete with details of rate of climb and performance of each aircraft he talked about and illustrated with first rate slides.
The last talk I heard, he spoke very movingly about being part of the intelligence team who arrived early at Bergen Belsen and the conclusions he drew from interrogating the SS guards.
Altogether a remarkable man and a terrific pilot whose favourite aircraft were the piston engined de Havilland Hornet and the Super Sabre jet, both were superb to fly.
We will not see his like again. 
Member
Posted 22 February 2016 - 14:24
What is remarkable is that like Norman Dewis(re whom it is now impossible to open a car mag without seeing him ) very few people had ever heard of Captain Brown until very recently. Is this some millenial thing where we are anxious to preserve the few links to the past I wonder? I ask this seriously - and don't deprecate the man - who seemed utterly extraordinary.
Very few perhaps amongst the public at large, but isn't that true of any of our truly great men in contrast to those stars of popular culture who choose to prance around in tights pretending to be someone else, or those who imagine it's manly just to warble into a microphone and generally misbehave in public? I think I first heard of 'Winkle' Brown in the late 1950s/early '60s but I was very much an aviation enthusiast at the time. So no, I don't think our admiration and respect can be put down to merely 'some millennial thing'... Or, if that is the majority reason, well, what's wrong with that? 
DCN
Member
Posted 22 February 2016 - 17:36
As it happens, Norman Dewis and Eric Brown were due to meet for the first time, just over a week ago, on stage at Brooklands in front of an audience comprising c250 members of the Brooklands Trust. Unsurprisingly tickets sold out within an hour of going on sale last month.
Extraordinarily and until the idea was first suggested to them, neither was particularly aware of the other, which one might put down to their respective modesty and self-effacement.
Once they had signed up to the event they were very keen to meet each other......so sadly not to be.
Christopher W.
Member
Posted 22 February 2016 - 21:20
His passing was given a full page in The Times today - justifiably so. A wonderful, courageous and amazing man, a real 'Boy's Own' hero.
Do watch that BBC documentary referred to earlier. His achievements and experiences were many - from making 2407 landings on an aircraft carrier, landing the first jet aircraft on a carrier (and subsequently taking off), flying the Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet - and surviving the experience - plus 486 other types of aircraft, interviewing Goering and so, so much more.
They really do not make them like him anymore.
Rest in Peace Captain Eric 'Winkie' Brown CBE., DSC, AFC.
Edited by retriever, 23 February 2016 - 22:07.
Member
Posted 23 February 2016 - 07:23
What is remarkable is that like Norman Dewis(re whom it is now impossible to open a car mag without seeing him ) very few people had ever heard of Captain Brown until very recently. Is this some millenial thing where we are anxious to preserve the few links to the past I wonder? I ask this seriously - and don't deprecate the man - who seemed utterly extraordinary.
I'd never heard of Eric Brown until recently, whereas Norman Dewis was a name I did know, being more of a car enthusiast than an aviation enthusiast.
Do watch that BBC documentary referred to earlier. His achievements and experiences were many - from making 2407 landings on an aircraft carrier, landing the first jet aircraft on a carrier (and subsequently taking off), flying the Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet - and surviving the experience - plus 486 other types of aircraft, interviewing Goering and so, so much more.
Going up in that flying chemical lab death trap must be the single most bravest thing he or any other pilot ever did. It was more of a danger to its own pilots than it was to the Allied forces.
Member
Posted 23 February 2016 - 12:33
Heard an excerpt of his recent interview on the BBC News last night. What a remarkable man. As a product of 1959 I'm afraid I had not come across him until recently. Further to what John Aston says above, I find that I often learn more interesting facts about someone I thought I knew well, at their funeral. There's always a "well I never" factor; the joy of discovery tinged with the sadness of not being able to ask more of them.
I'm between composing projects at the moment, which is just as well as I've just ordered all three of his books...
Member
Posted 28 February 2016 - 15:43
Received his autobiography yesterday morning, read it every spare second between teaching and performing; could not tear myself away from it. What a life! (And the book only takes his life up to 1971...) I'm waiting for the other two books to arrive, just hoping they don't arrive too early this week, I have too many chores to do.
Member
Posted 28 February 2016 - 17:18
Further to what John Aston says above, I find that I often learn more interesting facts about someone I thought I knew well, at their funeral.
Desert Island Discs throws up fascinating stuff. Here is Captain Brown on the celebration of 3000 Desert Island Discs programmes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/b04nvgq1
Member
Posted 01 March 2016 - 21:29
I first came across Winkle on a series called Planes That Never Flew. I could listen to him for hours. What an amazing life he led.
Member
Posted 02 March 2016 - 12:02
He gave a talk at Yeovilton q. a while ago - his account of testing the Me 163 was riveting: "The men who flew this aircraft in combat must have been exceptional..."
A fine and rare man. RIP.
Member
Posted 02 March 2016 - 14:54
Hi folks
I've not posted to the Nostalgia Forum for many years (not since the old Atlas F1 days). However, I thought I'd rejoin to add some comments regarding Eric Brown.
I had the good fortune to meet him in person in 2010 when he opened an exhibition at the Farnborough FAST Museum about the Captured German Aircraft display of 1945. IPMS Farnborough had been involved in putting the exhibition together as we were asked to provide 1/72 models of as many of the captured aircraft displayed as possible.
He was extremely complimentary about the models and took a keen interest in the work we had done. A lovely gent and I am so glad that I had the chance to chat to him. I've read nearly all his books.
I added some pictures I took of the event to this post but they aren't appearing for some reason.
Edited by Eric McLoughlin, 02 March 2016 - 14:56.
Member
Posted 02 March 2016 - 16:28
He lived only a few miles away from me and I was lucky enough to go to two talks he gave to a local model aeroplane flying club (his fee: a glass of red wine). His talks were off the cuff without notes and complete with details of rate of climb and performance of each aircraft he talked about and illustrated with first rate slides.
The last talk I heard, he spoke very movingly about being part of the intelligence team who arrived early at Bergen Belsen and the conclusions he drew from interrogating the SS guards.
Altogether a remarkable man and a terrific pilot whose favourite aircraft were the piston engined de Havilland Hornet and the Super Sabre jet, both were superb to fly.
We will not see his like again.
He lived only a few miles away from me and I was lucky enough to go to two talks he gave to a local model aeroplane flying club (his fee: a glass of red wine). His talks were off the cuff without notes and complete with details of rate of climb and performance of each aircraft he talked about and illustrated with first rate slides.
The last talk I heard, he spoke very movingly about being part of the intelligence team who arrived early at Bergen Belsen and the conclusions he drew from interrogating the SS guards.
Altogether a remarkable man and a terrific pilot whose favourite aircraft were the piston engined de Havilland Hornet and the Super Sabre jet, both were superb to fly.
We will not see his like again.
I last heard him give a talk in January, when his voice and recall were still as strong as ever. He always described the Hornet as "delightfully overpowered and flying it was just like driving a Ferrari round the sky!" His other favourite was in fact the F-86E Sabre, not the Super Sabre. The E was the first version to be fitted with an all-moving tailplane which improved handling and controllability at high speed. A brief unscheduled interview with him during a visit to Warton can be seen at http://www.youtube.c...h?v=xQzVZde_Ms4
Member
Posted 03 March 2016 - 08:51
Thank you Eric, wonderful photos of an aviation legend and a true gentleman.
Administrator
Posted 21 July 2016 - 17:40
There was a celebration of Winkle's life at RNAS Yeovilton today. It was the lead item on BBC West's local news programme Points West tonight.
Member
Posted 22 July 2016 - 05:32
Member
Posted 22 July 2016 - 22:18
'Winkle' Brown's name was mentioned last weekend when I was talking with an elderly colleague of Mrs Nye's at the local Bourne Show. He agreed that Brown was an amazing man, with a truly amazing career, but his personal experience of the man was not what I - as a fan - wanted to hear.
The gentleman in question was a former FAA pilot whose flying career was ended by very severe injury during a Korean War forced landing, in 1952. His Sea Fury had been damaged by flak and his options were to risk ditching, or try to regain his home carrier and maybe save the aircraft, and himself, to fly again. As it was the aircraft hit the ship's deck, and all manner of obstructions there, with tremendous violence. Our friend was dug out of the smoking wreckage and hospitalised for months, and survived despite lasting after effects which prevented him ever piloting an aircraft again. His age at the time of the accident was just 21.
His experience of 'Winkle' Brown was seeing the great man land on the new HMS Eagle during our friend's training on board her, late in 1951. "All of us aspiring young pilots were absolutely starry-eyed. We knew exactly who he was, and his record, and here he was landing on our ship. We all crowded round hoping just to shake him by the hand, what an honour that would have been.
"He walked towards us, deep in conversation with one of our officers but when we stepped forward to dare greet him he just glared at us - looked us up and down as if we were something the dog had just dragged in - and he cut us absolutely dead before going on up to the bridge, we presumed to see the captain. He really was completely dismissive and did not want to know - leaving us young admirers completely disillusioned. I'm afraid we all thought he was a snotty little ****..."
Very sadly, there can be two sides to every great man. And 'Winkle' would probably have regretted leaving that impression... At least a smile or a kind word need only take a second...and once the moment has passed, it has gone forever.
DCN
Member
Posted 23 July 2016 - 06:05
Ditto for those I've known who met Bader, Stanford Tuck and Johnny Johnson: I think all did incredible deeds and established a warm rapport with their contemporaries but were less tolerant of those who came after.
I think we can all identify with that a little.
Member
Posted 23 July 2016 - 06:21
'Winkle' Brown's name was mentioned last weekend when I was talking with an elderly colleague of Mrs Nye's at the local Bourne Show. He agreed that Brown was an amazing man, with a truly amazing career, but his personal experience of the man was not what I - as a fan - wanted to hear.
The gentleman in question was a former FAA pilot whose flying career was ended by very severe injury during a Korean War forced landing, in 1952. His Sea Fury had been damaged by flak and his options were to risk ditching, or try to regain his home carrier and maybe save the aircraft, and himself, to fly again. As it was the aircraft hit the ship's deck, and all manner of obstructions there, with tremendous violence. Our friend was dug out of the smoking wreckage and hospitalised for months, and survived despite lasting after effects which prevented him ever piloting an aircraft again. His age at the time of the accident was just 21.
His experience of 'Winkle' Brown was seeing the great man land on the new HMS Eagle during our friend's training on board her, late in 1951. "All of us aspiring young pilots were absolutely starry-eyed. We knew exactly who he was, and his record, and here he was landing on our ship. We all crowded round hoping just to shake him by the hand, what an honour that would have been.
"He walked towards us, deep in conversation with one of our officers but when we stepped forward to dare greet him he just glared at us - looked us up and down as if we were something the dog had just dragged in - and he cut us absolutely dead before going on up to the bridge, we presumed to see the captain. He really was completely dismissive and did not want to know - leaving us young admirers completely disillusioned. I'm afraid we all thought he was a snotty little ****..."
Very sadly, there can be two sides to every great man. And 'Winkle' would probably have regretted leaving that impression... At least a smile or a kind word need only take a second...and once the moment has passed, it has gone forever.
DCN
Lt Brooke-Popham possibly?
Member
Posted 23 July 2016 - 09:30
For those who may not have read it, discount bookshop TheWorks.co.uk (other book shops are available) currently have 'Wings on My Sleeve' in stock, and at a knockdown price too. Not sure of the exact price as I already have two copies, but it was around £5 or less in my local store.
Member
Posted 23 July 2016 - 16:28
Lt Brooke-Popham possibly?
Nope.
DCN
Administrator
Posted 19 January 2017 - 19:02
As some of you may know, Winkle's logbooks and medals were due to be sold at auction recently. This stuff often disappears into private collections, never to be seen again. The FAA Museum at Yeovilton didn't have the time to raise the money to bid and were fearful that they would be lost forever as a resource.
However, a very generous anonymous donor stepped in and stumped up the money - they had been estimated at £150-200K - to buy them for the museum. 
His medals and some of the logbooks will be on display at Yeovilton for the next month, after which they will go to conservators. In due course there will be a permanent display at Yeovilton and the logbooks will be available to researchers in the archive.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...t-fife-38104385
Those with access to BBC iPlayer might enjoy the feature which aired on tonight's Points West.
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