159 replies to this topic

[Hati]

I have recently started thinking that the downhill of formula 1 started in early '90s when they didn't ban a then new drivers aid, (semi)automatic gearbox. I believe that a return to manual clutch pedal and h-pattern gear shifter would be a good thing. It would require more skill and increase overtake possibilities. It would probably also guarantee that teams couldn't predict time needed in qualifying beforehand with accuracy of a tenth of a second. I know that people think paddle shifters as a norm today but in my opinion it's just one more driving aid.

 

 

What do you think?

(If there is a similar poll already I couldn't find it...)

[Marklar]

I couldn't care less

 

Add on that the only thing which is disturbing currently are the shift light indicators, it would improve things if this would get removed.

Edited by Marklar, 13 March 2016 - 13:03.

[cokata]

Actually with manual gerbox the driver no matter how good he is will not make a perfect shift every time, and that could give more opportunity for overtakes. But then again manual gearchange makes no sense in 2016.

[Anja]

Not this again. F1 is supposed to be a pinnacle of motorsport, so of course let's ban all the technical innovations. I understand where it's all coming from. Nostalgia is something very powerful and I myself have mixed feelings about drivers "having it too easy these days" but come on, it seems like some people would seriously like F1 to stay in ~1991 level of technology forever. It's against the very essence of F1. If we're not going forward, it's no longer F1.

[johnmhinds]

Even if they added a gear shifter back in it would still only be electronically linked to the gear box, so it wouldn't make much of a difference to the racing, other than maybe making it more dangerous by making the driver take his hand off the wheel.

[Laura23]

Keep paddles, remove the lights and the beeps. That'd hand control back to the driver over changes yet keep the tech current.

[Okyo]

Not this again. F1 is supposed to be a pinnacle of motorsport, so of course let's ban all the technical innovations. I understand where it's all coming from. Nostalgia is something very powerful and I myself have mixed feelings about drivers "having it too easy these days" but come on, it seems like some people would seriously like F1 to stay in ~1991 level of technology forever. It's against the very essence of F1. If we're not going forward, it's no longer F1.

This.

[RacingXO]

Keep paddles, remove the lights and the beeps. That'd hand control back to the driver over changes yet keep the tech current.

 

This should be an option in the poll - I would vote for this

[ANF]

Couldn't care less. Power steering should be banned though.

[PayasYouRace]

I couldn't care less

Add on that the only thing which is disturbing currently are the shift light indicators, it would improve things if this would get removed.

They've always had a tachometer of some description. That's nothing new and a very vital piece of information for the driver.

[uffen]

Even if they added a gear shifter back in it would still only be electronically linked to the gear box, so it wouldn't make much of a difference to the racing, other than maybe making it more dangerous by making the driver take his hand off the wheel.

The drivers now take their hands off the wheel to play with the knobs on the steering wheel, and they have to take their eyes off the road - even more dangerous!

Edited by uffen, 13 March 2016 - 13:25.

[CountDooku]

While we are at it I think we should re-introduce drum brakes. That would certainly make stopping more challenging, would show who had the biggest balls and would "add to the show".

[uffen]

Flappy paddles represent the beginning of the decline in F1 for me. They are embarrassing. The idea that F1 has to be high tech is so naive. If F1 were high tech we'd have a CVT running the interface between the engine and the differential. Or at least a fully automatic gearbox. C'mon.

The rule book says "drivers must drive alone and unaided." Which comes closer to that objective - a manual box or a semi-automatic?

 

When I was a lad I used to run my dad's car through the automatic gears - on the PRND21. Select 1, push forward for 2 then push to D. That is basically what the current drivers are doing. Totally childish.

Edited by uffen, 13 March 2016 - 13:31.

[uffen]

Couldn't care less. Power steering should be banned though.

What is the thought process there?

[cokata]

What is the thought process there?

It would become beneficial for the drivers to start looking like men, and not teenagers?

[Hati]

Not this again. F1 is supposed to be a pinnacle of motorsport, so of course let's ban all the technical innovations. I understand where it's all coming from. Nostalgia is something very powerful and I myself have mixed feelings about drivers "having it too easy these days" but come on, it seems like some people would seriously like F1 to stay in ~1991 level of technology forever. It's against the very essence of F1. If we're not going forward, it's no longer F1.

What if F1 were pinnacle of mechanical engineering instead of electrical engineering? If cars are stupendously fast and racing is tight but only electricity in car is in ignition then why can't they be Formula 1 cars?

 

(What I have in mind isn't -91 car, closest description of what I want would probably be 1987 cars with 2017 safety equipment.)

[maverick69]

Hmmmmmm.......

 

I have to say that I much prefer a "H pattern" on the road when it comes to driving high performance cars. It's not the most efficient - but it feels much better.

 

Then again, I drove a 360 Scud the other day - and it was almost comical in the way it farted and banged up and down the gears without having to use a clutch. A real experience. I would still prefer a manual gearbox at the end of the day though.

 

But, I think that paddle shift is right for F1 - and removing it would make little difference to the quality and entertainment of the racing.

 

IMHO, (dynamically) the problem lies at that big flippy-up thing connected to the nose of the car......... and the nature of the underbody downstream.......

[FLB]

 

 

(What I have in mind isn't -91 car, closest description of what I want would probably be 1987 cars with 2017 safety equipment.)

The two are incompatible. Case in point: The most severe of Jacques Laffitte's injuries at Brands Hatch in 1986 (to his right hip and pelvis) were caused by the gear linkage. The same thing happened to Bryan Herta at Toronto in 1994 (CART).

[Jejking]

Couldn't care less. Power steering should be banned though.

 

You really think these drivers in this Anorexian Age could cope with that? I really, really, REALLY doubt that.
 

[BuddyHolly]

I voted for, tbh I've been saying for a while they should bring back manual gears and get rid of those paddles, also manual gearboxes would add an element of risk to racing,  a driver can always miss a gear which gives the guy chasing a chance to get closer/pass and its not a silly gimmick like KERS/DRS.

[johnmhinds]

The drivers now take their hands off the wheel to play with the knobs on the steering wheel, and they have to take their eyes off the road - even more dangerous!

 

Tweaking a knob in the middle of a straight is safer than shifting down gears into every breaking zone with only one hand on the wheel.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Going back to the stone age won't improve the show!

[Pingguest]

The first question that needs to be answered, is whether the semi-automatic gearbox is indeed a driver aid. I tend to answer this question negatively. The driver still has to change gears, as there is no system making that decision for him.

As said, Formula One should have a high-tech profile. A manual gearbox would be certainly a step back in terms of technology.

 

However, Formula One is also seeking for more relevance. Most top-end sportscars are no longer fitted with a manual gearbox. But many family cars still are. Reintroducing manual gearboxes would make it harder for drivers to do mid-corner gear changes and thereby force engine manufacturers to make their power units more 'torquey' - which would make them more relevant. From this point of view, one could argue both for and against the manual gearbox.

[MikeV1987]

That's just going backwards to me.

[uffen]

Tweaking a knob in the middle of a straight is safer than shifting down gears into every breaking zone with only one hand on the wheel.

Taking your eyes off the road isn't. We've already seen one crash where the driver said he was fiddling with the settings. No, I cannot recall the specifics.

[uffen]

Going back to the stone age won't improve the show!

No, not going back to the stone age, and yes it would improve the show. I am not interested or impressed by the "show" element of flicking a paddle. I was impressed by the "show" element of timing and completing a manual shift sans syncros.

This is especially evident when one has a driver behind sniffing up your tail pipe lap after lap. At least I have Lewis Hamilton on my side on this issue.

[ANF]

You really think these drivers in this Anorexian Age could cope with that? I really, really, REALLY doubt that.

That's the point: they say they want physically challenging cars. And I'm sure they all would like to post as many shirtless instagram pics as Max Chilton has been doing since he went to Indy.

[Araqiel]

Taking your eyes off the road isn't. We've already seen one crash where the driver said he was fiddling with the settings. No, I cannot recall the specifics.

Maldonado, China 2014 IIRC. Also possibly Schumi at Hockenheim 2012.

[cokata]

Also manual gearbox should improve the sound in theory, as gear changes will become much more prominent, especially downshifts

Edited by cokata, 13 March 2016 - 15:52.

[LORDBYRON]

I couldn't care less.

 

The drivers and teams wont vote it in on the grounds of safety and cost.

 

Its just like ground hog day in here now.

[Seanspeed]

Keep paddles, remove the lights and the beeps. That'd hand control back to the driver over changes yet keep the tech current.

I dont really mind the lights and beeps, but I'd be happy with this as a compromise. 

 

But to be real here - the only people this would impress are the more hardcore fans.  It's not going to improve the show or anything, it'll just make some people feel better knowing the drivers have to judge shifts on their own. 

Edited by Seanspeed, 13 March 2016 - 15:27.

[OO7]

The problem is the aero, that cars can't follow each other closely enough.  As soon as F1 actually commits a programme to solving this issue and implementing the necessary solutions, there will be less discussion on increasing braking distances, returning to manual gearboxes, banning radio communications,......etc.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

The problem is the aero, that cars can't follow each other closely enough. As soon as F1 actually commits a programme to solving this issue and implementing the necessary solutions, there will be less discussion on increasing braking distances, returning to manual gearboxes, banning radio communications,......etc.

And that is the issue, not the gearbox... Weather or not it is manual or semi, until they can follow each other it won't improve the show!

Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 13 March 2016 - 15:39.

[CoolBreeze]

Yes. 

[cokata]

The problem is the aero, that cars can't follow each other closely enough.  As soon as F1 actually commits a programme to solving this issue and implementing the necessary solutions, there will be less discussion on increasing braking distances, returning to manual gearboxes, banning radio communications,......etc.

LMP1 cars have much more downforce than f1 cars, but dirty air there is not really that much of a problem (on the flip side slipstreaming is not nearly as effective). A big part of that is that the wheels are covered, and they are one of the biggest source of turbulence. The other reason is ofcourse the fact the a much bigger % of their downforce comes from the floor+diffuser when compared to f1.

Edited by cokata, 13 March 2016 - 15:47.

[uffen]

 

I couldn't care less.

 

The drivers and teams wont vote it in on the grounds of safety and cost.

 

Its just like ground hog day in here now.

 

Safety and costs? There is a reason they mandated 5 races per gearbox, and it wasn't because they were cheap. Safety? That's a stretch.

[uffen]

I dont really mind the lights and beeps, but I'd be happy with this as a compromise. 

 

But to be real here - the only people this would impress are the more hardcore fans.  It's not going to improve the show or anything, it'll just make some people feel better knowing the drivers have to judge shifts on their own. 

I find it amazing that some folks feel better knowing that the drivers have no need to judge the shifts on their own. I've already written my feelings about the 'show' in post #26.

I guess I wish more folks were hard core fans.

Edited by uffen, 13 March 2016 - 15:53.

[Kev00]

Whilst manual gearboxes would probably improve the racing or entertainment i would not want to see them back in f1. There is no need. There a plenty of issues in f1 that need sorting out but gearboxes is not one of them.

[DampMongoose]

You're not hardcore at all until you ask for riding mechanics back.

[MikeV1987]

We're not hardcore fans unless we wan't ancient technology back. Right, ok.

Edited by MikeV1987, 13 March 2016 - 16:08.

[myattitude]

I can think of a safety issue of a driver not keeping both hands on the wheel at a 120mph corner. Take off the beeps & lights though, that's babysitting.

[OO7]

LMP1 cars have much more downforce than f1 cars, but dirty air there is not really that much of a problem (on the flip side slipstreaming is not nearly as effective). A big part of that is that the wheels are covered, and they are one of the biggest source of turbulence. The other reason is ofcourse the fact the a much bigger % of their downforce comes from the floor+diffuser when compared to f1.

Dirty air is a problem in LMP, but as you say no where near as detrimental to performance as an F1 car.

[OO7]

I find it amazing that some folks feel better knowing that the drivers have no need to judge the shifts on their own. I've already written my feelings about the 'show' in post #26.

I guess I wish more folks were hard core fans.

Racing cars have had tachometers for donkey years and the rev lights are simply an expansion of a narrow band in the rev range.  The beeps to shift allow a driver to be more 'heads-up' when shifting.  I don't see how banning these devices would make any real difference.

[Archer]

I don't see it in 2016, and also, don't change anything. Drivers would adapt to the new situation, and racing would be as dull as now. When they banned traction control, there was a expectancy of cars sliding, and then 2 races into the season all was as dull as usual with cars seeming riding on rails. I rather would see a return of the gravel traps.

[uffen]

Racing cars have had tachometers for donkey years and the rev lights are simply an expansion of a narrow band in the rev range.  The beeps to shift allow a driver to be more 'heads-up' when shifting.  I don't see how banning these devices would make any real difference.

My concern has nothing to do with lights or tachs.

[LORDBYRON]

Safety and costs? There is a reason they mandated 5 races per gearbox, and it wasn't because they were cheap. Safety? That's a stretch.

On the grounds there is already to much to do in the cabin already.

[uffen]

I can think of a safety issue of a driver not keeping both hands on the wheel at a 120mph corner. Take off the beeps & lights though, that's babysitting.

There is no need to take one's hands off the wheel in the middle of a corner. You can do it, certainly, but you don't have to regardless of any shifting procedure.

If taking one's hands off the wheel is a safety issue then we need to look at tear off visor strips, brake bias adjustments, steering wheel controls, admonishing other drivers with the one-finger salute, wiping one's visor when the tear off strips are used up, etc.

Safety can excuse anything in racing. I mean, the guy behind is trying to come alongside and overtake at very high speeds. While braking! No, it is an argument that leads nowhere with this issue.

Driver distraction is a far greater danger than temporarily taking a hand off the steering wheel. The driver distraction of radio chatter, steering wheel fiddling, etc., is far more dangerous.

I know the drivers can usually handle it, but then again of course they can handle manual shifts.

[Seanspeed]

I find it amazing that some folks feel better knowing that the drivers have no need to judge the shifts on their own. I've already written my feelings about the 'show' in post #26.

I guess I wish more folks were hard core fans.

I didn't say anything about people 'feeling better' knowing drivers dont have to judge their own shifts.  I personally just dont really care.  I'm not stating a preference whatsoever.  

 

The people that dont want them to have this ability are the ones that are only really doing it to feel better about it.  It's not as if judging shifts through a tach and noise is rocket science.  It's not really going to change much.  

 

I consider myself a hardcore fan, but I'm definitely not a purist.  I still think drivers are out there working hard and have plenty of things to concentrate on to maximize performance.  I do not consider shift lights to be something hurting the show.  I wouldn't exactly care if they were taken away either, though. 

Edited by Seanspeed, 13 March 2016 - 17:18.

[uffen]

I don't see it in 2016, and also, don't change anything. Drivers would adapt to the new situation, and racing would be as dull as now. When they banned traction control, there was a expectancy of cars sliding, and then 2 races into the season all was as dull as usual with cars seeming riding on rails. I rather would see a return of the gravel traps.

I understand your point, Archer.

I my view though, I enjoy watching a driver knowing that he is "alone and unaided" meaning mainly driver aids such as flappy paddle shifting, anti-lock brakes, traction control, stability control, active suspension, radio coaching, even power steering. Even if the racing is unaffected on the surface, I would enjoy the spectacle more. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have closer racing with genuine overtaking and overtaking attempts and a less spread out field, but my appreciation of that would be greatly enhanced if it featured "alone and unaided."

I look at race drivers as artists in a way and just as I prefer a singer who can hit the notes without auto-tune, and the musician who knows his guitar is out of tune and doesn't rely on motorized pegs auto tuning systems, and sculptors who use a hammer and chisel rather than a 3D printer and a digital file. Yes the sculpture will be completed faster and be "more perfect" but I wouldn't appreciate it as much.

 

I know that some were gutted by the ban on many driver aids, and I imagine many were gutted when the FIA banned CVTs in 1994. At one time I was all for all the technology. Bring it on. Then I saw what it did to the racing. It was a natural evolution in a way, and it was inevitable. But it harmed what I appreciated. So, yes, "turn the clock back" as far as driver aids are concerned.

[myattitude]

There is no need to take one's hands off the wheel in the middle of a corner. You can do it, certainly, but you don't have to regardless of any shifting procedure.

If taking one's hands off the wheel is a safety issue then we need to look at tear off visor strips, brake bias adjustments, steering wheel controls, admonishing other drivers with the one-finger salute, wiping one's visor when the tear off strips are used up, etc.

Safety can excuse anything in racing. I mean, the guy behind is trying to come alongside and overtake at very high speeds. While braking! No, it is an argument that leads nowhere with this issue.

Driver distraction is a far greater danger than temporarily taking a hand off the steering wheel. The driver distraction of radio chatter, steering wheel fiddling, etc., is far more dangerous.

I know the drivers can usually handle it, but then again of course they can handle manual shifts.

There is something like 4,000 gear changes in a Monaco GP, that's taking your hand clean off the wheel 4,000 times.

 

I thought manual gearbox meant stick shift?

 

Edit: I'm WRONG! You downshift a few at at time, so more like 700-800 times off the wheel.

Edited by myattitude, 13 March 2016 - 17:31.