3999 replies to this topic

[Radion]

So you're saying Vettel is bad but Kimi is worse? 

Yes. Kimi was nowhere the last two years. The fact that Vettel is around his performance level in 2016 is shocking. Don't you think 

[Jovanotti]

Man, Kimi really should have got this one...still, we've come a long way if we're moaning about a 0,05s gap to Vettel. And a podium is off the cards tomorrow anyway.

Edited by artista, 01 October 2016 - 11:59.

[Vesuvius]

Both did well, it has been enjoyment to watch Kimi's qualifying lately, he is fast again over one lap and is doing well against one of the fastest driver.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Great stuff from both guys, hardly anything to split them which shows they're pushing the car as far as it can go

[Slowersofterdumber]

Nothing between them today. Good job, shame the car isn't great on 1 lap, will limit the result tomorrow.

[myattitude]

Why did Kimi back off? he could have got 3rd if he kept the same gap over Vettel for his second run.

[Zesus]

Good job. Only bad thing is that Kimi won't even attempt to overtake Vettel tomorrow.

[skc]

Yes. Kimi was nowhere the last two years. The fact that Vettel is around his performance level in 2016 is shocking. Don't you think 

 

Well considering all the car trouble Vettel has had this season I'm surprised the driver standings are that close still.

 

But yes, Vettel has had a very up and down season so far.

[Vesuvius]

Why did Kimi back off? he could have got 3rd if he kept the same gap over Vettel for his second run.

He wasn't improving after two sectors.

[Konsta]

Great stuff from both guys, hardly anything to split them which shows they're pushing the car as far as it can go

Yes and that is why it's so sad that they're solid 3rd row.

[Vesuvius]

Well considering all the car trouble Vettel has had this season I'm surprised the driver standings are that close still.

But yes, Vettel has had a very up and down season so far.

All things considered the points table is realistic, even with car troubles that Vettel has had, Kimi has had his troubles and collissions as well.

[apoka]

Vettel lost a lot more points though over the season due to misfortune out of the driver's control.

[RPM40]

Vettel lost a lot more points though over the season due to misfortune out of the driver's control.

While I agree with that, Vettel has also hit Kimi in multiple races this season which has reversed the order. There isn't much in it between these two.

[PilotPlant91]

Vettel lost a lot more points though over the season due to misfortune out of the driver's control.

 

And Kimi didn't suffer from stuff out of his control i.e getting hit by his teammate twice losing both P2 ?

 

I haven't calculated point lost due to strategy blunders   

Unless you think Vettel could win in Singapore, then it might be true 

[Vesuvius]

Vettel lost a lot more points though over the season due to misfortune out of the driver's control.

 

so did Kimi (Australia, China, Belgium) so things has happened to both drivers, not to just one.

[abc]

Vettel advantage should have been bigger by some another 30-35 pts.

[Jovanotti]

Shows that some people are coming under pressure when they can't stop referencing to hypothetical WDC points SV should have scored.

[PilotPlant91]

Vettel advantage should have been bigger by some another 30-35 pts.

 

Kimi should have 4 podiums lost by teammate, team strategy and engine failure

[VolvoT5]

I would love to see what these two could do if they were driving a Mercedes.  Shame Ferrari have so much talent in the car but are not delivering a worthy package for them to drive. 

 

Good job by both but what can you do when the car is nearly a second slower than it needs to be. 

[YoungGun]

Yes. Kimi was nowhere the last two years. The fact that Vettel is around his performance level in 2016 is shocking. Don't you think 

 

When you're at the bottom of the ladder, each step up seems very impressive. Staying at the top seems to more difficult, as Kimi's one WDC is proof of that.

 

How a driver can accomplish 4 WDC's or more for one team remains a mystery. 

[Seanspeed]

Vettel advantage should have been bigger by some another 30-35 pts.

Easily that.  

 

He's had crap luck this year.  

[PilotPlant91]

Easily that.  

 

He's had crap luck this year.  

 

and kimi didn't?? 

[Marklar]

While I agree with that, Vettel has also hit Kimi in multiple races this season which has reversed the order. There isn't much in it between these two.

Just one race (Spa). China wasnt his fault
 

Vettel advantage should have been bigger by some another 30-35 pts.

Difficult to say (as usual), but it could be. It is pretty foolish to suggest the luck is equal this year. It simply isnt.
 

I would love to see what these two could do if they were driving a Mercedes.

If they would be both at Mercedes, they would win (almost) everything. One of them paired with an other driver of the two top teams rather not.

 

Nothing between them today. Good job, shame the car isn't great on 1 lap, will limit the result tomorrow.

This is actually surprising. Malaysia is most likely Vettels best track. Sure, the track is modified, but stil. Yet he can just beat Kimi by 0.048 s. And Kimi even bailed out off his 2nd run. Until the summer I would have said that Vettel was stil dominating this battle and just massively uneven reliability screwed this picture, but since then Vettel couldnt outperform Kimi any more. If anything, Raikkonen is the better driver since then, as he is doing less mistakes on the saturday. To add on that: Yes, a part of this falled into 1 or 2 races where Vettel is pretty weak on traditonally (and Kimi strong). But the last 3 races (Monza, Singapore, Malaysia) are Vettel tracks, yet the trend continues. In this period the Red Bull driver started to regulary outperform Ferrari driver over one lap too.

[Alexandros]

This is actually surprising. Malaysia is most likely Vettels best track. Sure, the track is modified, but stil. Yet he can just beat Kimi by 0.048 s. And Kimi even bailed out off his 2nd run.

 

Malaysia is one of Kimi's strongest tracks too. I don't know how the camber changes have affected his driving lines, but Malaysia always offered him the chance to take alternative lines / wider lines*, which he likes.

 

* https://vid.me/jQ8D

Edited by Alexandros, 01 October 2016 - 18:57.

[abc]

Malaysia is most likely Vettels best track.
[/quote]
Not that it is important, but its far from his best track. In Webber times I always feared first 3 races and wanted him just to survive without big gap.
In 2014 DR was not settled in car yet and I think there were car problems, too. Last year was inconclusive,KR had to race from behind.

[CBA]

Raikkonen has definitely had the worse luck this year and definitely is the one who "should" be ahead in points.  He actually literally would be if hadn't gotten hit by teammate twice.

[CommanderShepard]

Lost points

---------------------------------------

Kimi

Australia - DNF - 4th place - 12 points

China - crashed into -  5 points

Spa - crashed into - I think he would have reached P2 - 16 points

Singapore - strategy/lost podium - 3 points

-------

Overall: 36

 

Seb

Bahrain - 15 points

Russia - 15 points

Silverstone (gearbox penalty) - 4 points

Singapore (starting from last) - 5 points

 

I won't count Austria, because it's partly self inflicted.

-------

Overall: 39

 

But he unfairly gained on Kimi in Spa and China. So pretty close, really. I didn't bother adjusting the scores, these are mainly the lost points.

 

It's amazing how much points they have lost this season. Probably over 100 with Austria and some other races I forgot about.

Edited by CommanderShepard, 01 October 2016 - 22:17.

[Alexandros]

Kimi Raikkonen, 6th, 1:33.632

 

"It was a pretty smooth running until the last try: then I had some traffic on the out lap and struggled with the tyres to make them work in the first two corners, so I ran a bit wide. It was a decent qualifying session but it's painful when you have such a bad last try. The handling of the car has been pretty ok and I was hoping for a bit more, but tomorrow we'll try to do better. We don't know what will happen and obviously we are not in the ideal starting position. The tarmac is new so it's hard to say where it's going to go and which tyre will be the best, it will be a lot down to the conditions. We have to do our own best and see what that brings in the race."

 

Sebastian Vettel, 5th, 1:33.584

 

"We expected it to be tight, but we thought that we could have the upper hand in the end. So I am disappointed to see both Red Bulls in front of us, but they were just a bit quicker. There was not a lot missing, but just enough, just over a tenth. We need to have a look into our data and see if we can pick it up later... In the end, we were hoping to be one row higher up, so in second, right behind the Mercedes. But for the race, nervertheless, we should have a good speed: the strategy will also be important tomorrow. There is a bit of room for manoeuvre, as everybody has to use the harder tyre, which might make it interesting. And then there is also the fact that we are in Malaysia, so there might be some rain, or just the heat as a factor."

[PilotPlant91]

Just one race (Spa). China wasnt his fault
 

Difficult to say (as usual), but it could be. It is pretty foolish to suggest the luck is equal this year. It simply isnt.
 

If they would be both at Mercedes, they would win (almost) everything. One of them paired with an other driver of the two top teams rather not.

 

This is actually surprising. Malaysia is most likely Vettels best track. Sure, the track is modified, but stil. Yet he can just beat Kimi by 0.048 s. And Kimi even bailed out off his 2nd run. Until the summer I would have said that Vettel was stil dominating this battle and just massively uneven reliability screwed this picture, but since then Vettel couldnt outperform Kimi any more. If anything, Raikkonen is the better driver since then, as he is doing less mistakes on the saturday. To add on that: Yes, a part of this falled into 1 or 2 races where Vettel is pretty weak on traditonally (and Kimi strong). But the last 3 races (Monza, Singapore, Malaysia) are Vettel tracks, yet the trend continues. In this period the Red Bull driver started to regulary outperform Ferrari driver over one lap too.

 

Foolish how? China is definately Vettel fault. And you know what, in those two occasions, vettel went on and finished P2 and P6 after he took kimi out. Whatever bad luck he's having, he surely benefited from taking kimi out of a firm P2 finish in both races. And the points lost due to strategies .................

 

Again with the driver best track nonsense. I have not come across with Kimi having a weak track to himself when he got the front end working. Need smashes through that thick stereotype, and start judging driver based on their onboard video.

Rbr has been stronger since Silverstone, and they made less bonehead call on strategy too. Look back at Singapore gp, Max Verstappen was locking up everywhere with a messy final attempt in Q3 and still ended up 2 tenths in front of Kimi. Kinda like Rosberg in qualification yesterday 

[Alexandros]

 Look back at Singapore gp, Max Verstappen was locking up everywhere with a messy final attempt in Q3 and still ended up 2 tenths in front of Kimi. Kinda like Rosberg in qualification yesterday 

 

Now that you mention it, hamilton too had a slide of the rear: http://www.formula1....aysia_2016.html (01'17)

 

...but if the car is fast and he takes the pole easily, nobody is there to say 'OHHHH NOOOOO HE MADE A MISTAAAAAAAAAKEEEEEEE"    

 

On the other hand, if the car isn't fast enough, every little slide is magnified and one thinks every lost position is the driver's fault...

[PilotPlant91]

Now that you mention it, hamilton too had a slide of the rear: http://www.formula1....aysia_2016.html (01'17)

 

...but if the car is fast and he takes the pole easily, nobody is there to say 'OHHHH NOOOOO HE MADE A MISTAAAAAAAAAKEEEEEEE"    

 

On the other hand, if the car isn't fast enough, every little slide is magnified and one thinks every lost position is the driver's fault...

 

Yea, sky was doing great by comparing the onboard that really shows which driver commit mistakes compared to other driver. They notice Rosberg's last attempt was actually equal to Lewis until T15 due to Lewis's mistake.

 

However, thanks to Bernie, its really hard to get those onboard qualifying video. 

[motorhead]

Now that you mention it, hamilton too had a slide of the rear: http://www.formula1....aysia_2016.html (01'17)

 

...but if the car is fast and he takes the pole easily, nobody is there to say 'OHHHH NOOOOO HE MADE A MISTAAAAAAAAAKEEEEEEE"    

 

On the other hand, if the car isn't fast enough, every little slide is magnified and one thinks every lost position is the driver's fault...

 

True, It is sad that with Mercedes you can do mistakes, choke or whatever and you´ll be still in the front row

[VolvoT5]

Vettel is driving like an idiot at the start this year.  He drove into a closing wedge AGAIN.   

[Trust]

So now we are even as far as Kimi's Monaco and Vettel's Malaysia is compared.

[VolvoT5]

Why is Kimi always the victim of other drivers stupidity this year?     Rosberg's 10 second penalty was meaningless because he damaged Kimi's car AND he easily had the pace to open up a 10 second gap.    I mean if you can't pass cleanly don't pass.  

[brunberg]

Not fair that 10sec penalty as you still gain track position.

[dreamer]

Australia

Qualifying: Vettel 3rd, Raikkonen 4th

Race: Vettel 3rd, Kimi DNF (mechanical problem)

 

Bahrain

Qualifying: Vettel 3rd, Raikkonen 4th

Race: Vettel DNS (mechanical problem), Kimi 2nd

 

China

Qualifying: Vettel 4th, Raikkonen 3rd

Race: Vettel 2nd, Raikkonen 5th (Hit at the start by Vettel)

 

Russia

Qualifying: Vettel 2nd (+5 place penalty / gearbox), Raikkonen 4th

Race: Vettel DNF (Hit twice by Kvyat), Raikkonen 3rd

 

Spain

Qualifying: Vettel 6th, Raikkonen 5th

Race: Vettel 3rd, Raikkonen 2nd

 

Monaco

Qualifying: Vettel 4th, Raikkonen 6th (+5 place penalty / Gearbox)

Race: Vettel 4th, Raikkonen DNF (crash)

 

Canada

Qualifying: Vettel 3rd, Raikkonen 6th

Race: Vettel 2nd, Raikkonen 6th

 

Azerbaijan

Qualifying: Vettel  4th (starting 3rd - Perez penalty) , Raikkonen 5th  (starting 4th - Perez penalty)

Race: Vettel 2nd, Raikkonen 4th

 

Austria

Qualifying: Vettel 4th (starting 9th - gearbox penalty), Raikkonen 6th (starting 4th - Vettel and Rosberg penalties)

Race: Vettel DNF (tyre problem), Raikkonen 3rd

 

UK

Qualifying: Vettel 6th (starting 11th - gearbox penalty), Raikkonen 5th

Race: Vettel 9th, Raikkonen 5th

 

Hungary

Qualifying: Vettel 5th, Raikkonen 14th

Race: Vettel 4th, Raikkonen 6th

 

Germany

Qualifying: Vettel 6th, Raikkonen 5th

Race: Vettel 5th, Raikkonen 6th

 

Belgium

Qualifying: Vettel 4th, Raikkonen 3rd

Race: Vettel 6th (accident at the start), Raikkonen 9th (hit at the start)

 

Italy

Qualifying: Vettel 3rd , Raikkonen 4th

Race: Vettel 3rd, Raikkonen 4th

 

Singapore

Qualifying: Vettel 22nd (mechanical problem), Raikkonen 5th

Race: Vettel 5th, Raikkonen 4th

 

Malaysia

Qualifying: Vettel 5th, Raikkonen 6th

Race: Vettel DNF (first corner incident), Raikkonen 4th

 

Championship

 

Qualifying

Vettel vs Raikkonen: 10-6

 

Race

Vettel vs Raikkonen: 9-7

 

Podiums

Vettel vs Raikkonen: 6-4

 

Fastest Lap

Vettel vs Raikkonen: 0-1

 

Points (Championship position)

Vettel vs Raikkonen: 153 (5)-160 (4)

[Zesus]

Well, what to say. Well done Kimi, you did great? I bet he had one of the hardest races this season as he was pushing as much as he could and while doing that, he wasn't gaining anything. It must be stressful for any driver. So sorry for Seb and Kimi that they can just hope for some DNF from other guys in front. Even mistakes doesn't mean anything, they pass Ferrari easily.

[kimister]

Ferrari was just not good enough   Damn! Even here after all these incident they are not on the podium   The pace was...

[dreamer]

Well, Kimi did the best he could. First of all, I was surprised that he didn't get a puncture on the first lap (happened the 2 previous years :rotfl:here ) . He drove a good race, did a nice pass on Perez, managed to survived Rosberg's move but the pace was not there.

 

Vettel risked a lot and it didn't work, unfortunately.

 

Let's hope for a better race in Japan.

[WelshSwan]

I am waiting for the 'If Seb had been in Kimi's position..' comments to start coming in! I think part of the reason why Vettel went for the move was because he knew getting past the RB's quickly was a must and perhaps the start would be his only chance to do so as RB looked very racy all weekend. I was initially cursing I must admit as I thought it was Kimi who'd been hit. 

[kimister]

Ferrari have to improve. Drivers cannot make miracles with this car  I fear of next year.

[Vesuvius]

Japan will be difficult, that track suits perfectly for RBR. Kimi did all he could today, I think some strategy calls again were not perfect but Ferrari is clearly now third best team, so there isn't much they can do.

[kimister]

I am waiting for the 'If Seb had been in Kimi's position..' comments to start coming in! I think part of the reason why Vettel went for the move was because he knew getting past the RB's quickly was a must and perhaps the start would be his only chance to do so as RB looked very racy all weekend. I was initially cursing I must admit as I thought it was Kimi who'd been hit. 

 

If it was Kimi he crashed, then Kimi would be the one out of race and Vet would continue w/o any issue   that was the pattern this season all 

Edited by kimister, 02 October 2016 - 09:07.

[VolvoT5]

I am waiting for the 'If Seb had been in Kimi's position..' comments to start coming in! I think part of the reason why Vettel went for the move was because he knew getting past the RB's quickly was a must and perhaps the start would be his only chance to do so as RB looked very racy all weekend. I was initially cursing I must admit as I thought it was Kimi who'd been hit. 

Well if Singapore and Austria are anything to go by the media will be claiming Vettel could have won without the incident at the start 

[Vesuvius]

Well if Singapore and Austria are anything to go by the media will be claiming Vettel could have won without the incident at the start

Lol excatly

[Zesus]

I think part of the reason why Vettel went for the move was because he knew getting past the RB's quickly was a must and perhaps the start would be his only chance to do so as RB looked very racy all weekend. 

 

Absolutely, he was right, but he wanted something that wasn't possible. Even with successful pass, he'd be overtaken quickly.

[Zesus]

Ferrari is clearly now third best team, so there isn't much they can do.

 

Yep, they confirmed it with pitting Kimi...today 4 times? They are trying to do something to at least have a shot for 4th position (today third as Hamilton was DNF). It was sad to watch.

[VolvoT5]

Vettel just looks ragged to me.  He is clearly frustrated and trying too hard.  In addition to that Raikkonen has upped his game and that is making the situation look worse for Seb. 

 

Very real possibility that Kimi could finish ahead of Seb in the championship this year now.   I know both drivers will claim it 'means nothing'  but my guess is that Seb would be at least a little irritated if that happened. 

[artista]

We are reaching the 4000 posts mark.
Let's continue here:
http://forums.autosp...l-2016-part-ii/