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The X-Pics - British motorsport incidents to identify


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#51 Paul Taylor

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 18:29

First post has been updated. The latest unknown photos are:

 

T.S. Fotheringham, Bugatti T54, when he lost a wheel at Brooklands. Any idea of year or race?
thomasfortheringhambugattiT54brooklands.
brooklandswheel.jpg
 
 
Crash at Prescott. Paul Gibbons, Bugatti Archivist believes it to be one of two entries which carried #101 - Norton in ERA R4D (1958), or Merrick in ERA R1A (1973). All I can find is evidence that Merrick didn't turn up to Prescott, and I have no info on Norton
 
prescott-crashed-era-twin-rear-wheels-H8
 
Michael Herman, Brands Hatch.  Seems to be a 500. A Mike Herman is listed on some race results at Brands in the early 1960s, but I can't find anything else. Any ideas?
 
michaelhermanbrands1.jpg

Edited by Paul Taylor, 17 January 2017 - 19:20.


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#52 Vitesse2

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 18:49

The Fotheringham one may be in practice for the 1932 Empire Trophy. The preview in The Times (30/4/32) mentions 'connecting rod trouble earlier in the week'.



#53 Paul Taylor

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 19:32

"Connecting-rod trouble" probably couldn't take the rear wheel off though. His engine also blew up during the race itself according to Motor Sport. When were the Vickers sheds being built (re-built?). Might give us a clue.



#54 Paul Parker

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 19:59

 

First post has been updated. The latest unknown photos are:

 

T.S. Fotheringham, Bugatti T54, when he lost a wheel at Brooklands. Any idea of year or race?
thomasfortheringhambugattiT54brooklands.
brooklandswheel.jpg
 
Michael Herman, Brands Hatch.  Seems to be a 500. A Mike Herman is listed on some race results at Brands in the early 1960s, but I can't find anything else. Any ideas?
 
michaelhermanbrands1.jpg

 

 

In the second pic Dick Seaman in a blazer, collar and tie is striding toward the Bugatti and on the old Team Dan Brooklands races site there is Fotheringham in a Bugatti (but no type no.) retiring in the Gold Star handicap race on Whit Monday May 16 1932. I could find no mention of Fotheringham at this race in the updated Boddy Brooklands book, unless I missed it.

 

However in the background is the nose of Trossi's Clemens engined Duesenberg which did not appear at Brooklands until 1934 driven by Whitney Straight, so I suspect this must be 1934 or later when Duller owned it.



#55 RogerFrench

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 12:50

Pretty sure that's not R4D, steering wheel has the wrong offset, and there looks to be a front leaf spring.

#56 GazChed

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 19:24

I think it is unlikely that the photographs of Thomas Fotheringham's
stricken Bugatti were taken during a race as although Fotheringham was a Brooklands habitue racing various Bugattis the only occasion he was entered in a Bugatti T54 was in tbe 1934 BRDC 500 Mile race , where he was due to share the car with Oliver Bertram .

In the race the car retired with a broken gear lever , not a broken rear axle (it retired from the 1933 race with axle problems but was not driven by Fotheringham on that occasion) . Also the weather for the 1934 BRDC 500 Miles was wet unlike the glorious sunshine in the photographs
and the car wears number 29 and not its race number of 39 . Therefore I believe that the incident occurred on a general practise day in August or September 1934 .

#57 Paul Taylor

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 12:41

That's very helpful GazChed. I did consider the possibility of a test day or practice session, there doesn't seem to be a lot of people around in any of the photos.



#58 Kvadrat

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 13:22

#29 Bugatti in this picture fits to crashed one.

 

MG_R_TYPES_BUGATTI_ON_THE_BROOKLANDS_BAN

 

Original caption: MG R-TYPES & BUGATTI ON THE BROOKLANDS BANKING, NEW HAW HANDICAP, c.1935/



#59 Kvadrat

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 13:25

There were New Haw handicaps at March 16 meeting.



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#60 Kvadrat

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 13:31

http://www.motorspor...rooklands-again

 

 

 

Next door lay the 4.9 Bugatti, once owned by Kaye Don and called Tiger II. Manby-Colegrave is its new owner, while Dudley Froy is to *handle it at all track events. 
Froy turned out for this race, but sheared his back axle on the line. After being towed back to the Paddock it was jacked up, when one wheel promptly fell off ! The break revealed a fracture that had taken a long while to develop, and Froy shuddered to think of the 40 practice laps he had done before the meeting


#61 GazChed

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 14:06

You beat me to it ! However the driver on that occasion was Dudley Froy but it does look very likely that is the incident in the photographs above . For the record the meeting was the opening meeting held on March 16th .

#62 GazChed

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 14:20

Sorry missed your post at 13.25

#63 Paul Taylor

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 20:43

Amazing! I'm convinced that's the one, brilliant work. According to the Bugatti Trust, the Kaye Don/Dudley Froy Bugatti was a Bugatti Type 54, chassis number 54203. Did T.S. Fotheringham ever own or race it? Or did the current owner of the Bugatti get that wrong? Or are we wrong?

 

(Weren't you over at The Fastlane with us a few years ago Vladimir?)


Edited by Paul Taylor, 19 January 2017 - 20:43.


#64 GazChed

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 23:50

According to Bill Boddy's 'The History of Brooklands Motor Course' the only time Thomas Fotheringham competed in the Bugatti T54 was in the 1934 BRDC 500 Mile race . For the reasons stated above that race has been ruled out and it is almost without doubt that the incident occurred at the opening meeting of Brooklands 1935 season . In both the contemporary report and ' The History of Brooklands Motor Course the driver is listed as Dudley Froy .

#65 Kvadrat

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 03:56

Weren't you over at The Fastlane with us a few years ago Vladimir?

 

Probably yes. There are too much forums to follow them all.



#66 Paul Taylor

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 16:00

Apparently appeared in an Autosport magazine in 1967 or earlier. Seems to be Brands Hatch. 

 

Any info?

 

34zztix.jpg



#67 group7

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 16:11

Paul, regarding your post of the two Elans (26R ????) I have come across that image before somewhere ? there are Lotus registries, you might be able to find an answer there.

 

I'm sure some one on this forum will come up with the identification, bumping the post might bring a reply.

 

Michael


Edited by group7, 17 March 2017 - 16:12.


#68 Sharman

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 22:07

Looking at the photo it seems almost undoubted that the pelvic injury would have been caused by the nose of 108 which looks to have T-boned 164. In that case a harness would have been superfluous.

#69 Catalina Park

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 06:59

The photo of the Elans is from Dr Michael Henderson's book 'Motor Racing in Safety'.

#70 group7

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 13:26

I posted that Elan photo on another forum, three venues have been put forth with out a positive identification,  Oulton Park, Mallory Park or Lydden Hill.



#71 Allan Lupton

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 08:59

I posted that Elan photo on another forum, three venues have been put forth with out a positive identification,  Oulton Park, Mallory Park or Lydden Hill.

My money is on Lydden Hill. The bank at Chesson's Drift(?) looked much like that before it got an Armco barrier at trackside level.


Edited by Allan Lupton, 19 March 2017 - 09:03.


#72 Sharman

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 11:32

Inside of Clay Hill but I don't think the bank is high enough?

#73 Michael Müller

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 11:56

Bringing up again the topic of the Bugatti with the lost rear wheel which reportedly shows Fothringham (btw, often written Fotheringham, which one is correct?).

 

brooklandswheel.jpg

 

thomasfortheringhambugattiT54brooklands.

 

These mystery photos puzzle me since years, as I always was convinced it's indeed a T54, because of the rear suspension. However, I actually changed my mind, it's for sure no T54, shape of frame is different, brakes are too small, and the typical oil filler on the bonnet is missing. I also had the 2 events in mind which had been posted here, but both do not fit. The Brooklands BRDC 500 on 22.9.1934 was the only occasion where Fothringham was entered as driver (by Kaye Don) for 54203, but Oliver Bertram retired the car with a broken gear lever before Fothringham had a chance to take over the wheel. Brooklands BARC Meeting on 16.3.1935, Manby-Colegrave had bought 54203 from Don and entered it for Dudley Froy, but the car was freshly painted in silver and carried r/n 1.  Reportedly the rear axle broke at the start, and the wheel fell off. Looks promising, but in that case the whole wheel assembly would have been missing, including brake, whereas on the photo only rim and tyre disappeared. 

 

I'm quite sure that the car is Fothringham's 4896, the ex-Campbell T39A, which Fothringham converted to T35B with a 100 mm crank. Car can be seen here at the Brooklands BRDC 500 on 16.9.1933:

 

https://lh3.googleus...AiXKFINTeE=s117

 

Obviously front and also rear suspension are not original anymore, seems that the rear springs had been changed from inside to outside the bodywork. 4896 was painted green, which would fit to the photos. I agree that the Trossi Duesenberg which can be spotted on one of the photos only appeared at Brooklands in 1934, so any earlier identification is out of question. As 4896 was sold to Ralph Vickers around May 1935 we can limit the period to March 1934 up to April 1935, under the condition of course the photos show indeed Fothringham. 

 

https://s28.postimg....NDS_BANKING.jpg

 

The Bugatti looks indeed as our mystery car, however, I cannot find Fothringham racing at the BARC opening meeting on 16.3.1935.



#74 Michael Müller

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Posted 13 January 2020 - 12:03

Okay, the reason I left this forum years ago already is the photo topic. Correct decision.....  :(



#75 Doug Nye

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Posted 15 January 2020 - 19:48

:confused:

 

DCN



#76 Paul Taylor

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Posted 19 January 2020 - 04:28

I'm quite sure that the car is Fothringham's 4896, the ex-Campbell T39A, which Fothringham converted to T35B with a 100 mm crank. Car can be seen here at the Brooklands BRDC 500 on 16.9.1933:

 

https://lh3.googleus...AiXKFINTeE=s117

 

 

Seems like you may be right: http://www.bugattibu...lbum=1105&pos=3

 

The car is now owned by Julian Majzub.

 

A little confused by your other post, though...