24 replies to this topic

[Graham Clayton]

I was looking at the report on the 1975 European Formula 3 Cup at Allen Browns Oldracingcars.com website:

http://www.oldracing...f3/europe/1975/

 

The series had 6 rounds, and used a 9-6-4-3-2-1 points system

 

Larry Perkins won the series with just 18 points - made up of two victories in rounds 4 & 5. The other four victories were shared by 4 four different drivers.

 

Have there been any other series where the winner has won with so few points?

[2F-001]

This only seems relevant when the points score is seen as a percentage of the maximum available. With that in mind, I offer Keke Rosberg in 1982.

 

Other possibilities would be series in which few of the quicker drivers contested all races - whether because the series were not especially popular, the rounds were geographically dispersed or not all for the same category of car.

 

Beyond that, such a result may be viewed as sign of no contestants being outstandingly good, or all being evenly matched and having a close-fought series. As Jenks would have said: "Who did they beat?".

[Roger Clark]

Rudolph Caracciola, 1938 European Champion.

[HP]

Rudolph Caracciola, 1938 European Champion.

He won that title 3 times, with less than 18 points

 

However the points system was

 

1st 1 point

2nd 2 points

3rd 3 points

 

So the idea was to end up with as few points as possible.

 

Further down they were given even more points for not completing the entire race distances, etc, down to a maximum of 8 points

Edited by HP, 01 April 2016 - 08:06.

[Allan Lupton]

Yes, HP, that's a good way to show that comparing "points awarded" in different times and systems is, at best, pointless and is often downright misleading.

I am told that in effone these days there are more points for a win than were given for each race in total in the 1950s

[2F-001]

Rudolph Caracciola, 1938 European Champion.

That's clever Roger - I didn't think of that!

 

(So he scored twice the possible minimum - about the same level of dominance, or otherwise, as Lauda's in '75; if that mean's anything much… which I doubt…)

[Michael Ferner]

Fewest points? Must be the Kokomo Speedway track championship, most of the years. The scoring was one point for a win, period. No tie-break, either, so there were years when five or six drivers shared the title with two points, each.

 

EDIT: In the Sprint division, the only one I took notes of, there were three champions with three points eacch in 1987 (Tony Elliott, Terry Shepherd and Dave Darland), also in 1993 (Darland, Keith Thomas and Gary Fisher). The champion had rarely more than half a dozen points in any year. Best year was probably 1986, with Gary Fisher 1st at 2 points, and fourteen drivers sharing second place with one point each!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 01 April 2016 - 09:29.

[Collombin]

As a percentage of available points, Bill Vukovich's 1950 AAA National Midget title may be a contender - based on his results, anyway. Not sure what the actual system was.

[Michael Ferner]

200-190-180-etc. points down to 10 for 20th place, 2 championship rounds. Vuky was 3rd and 4th, won with 350 points of 4200 total points on offer, of which only 4170 were scored since only 18 cars finished in the second race.

[2F-001]

So, with over 85% of a possible maximum, Vukovich is nowhere in this race to the bottom.

 

Curious statistical trivia, but yes - pointless in more ways than one!

[Collombin]

Yes, I didn't know the points system was so rewarding for the lower placings.

Can I redeem myself with Chuck Stevenson's 1952 national championship? Surely a lower percentage than Keke? The more I think about it, there must be loads of better examples though.

Edited by E.B., 01 April 2016 - 11:47.

[Michael Ferner]

Ahh, I misunderstood. So it's not the 4200 points available to all drivers you want to compare Vuky's 350 with, but the 400 available to any one driver. Stevenson's 1440 of 3600 possible makes for 40 %, but surely Henry Banks's 1390 of 3590 (38.7 %) in 1950 are better, right? So what was Keke's score, 44 of 144 (30,6 %). Hmm. We have to do better, E. B.!

[Michael Ferner]

I can only offer a rough estimate for Ted Horn in 1946, about 33 %. Still not good enough, but at least on par with Larry Perkins.

[Collombin]

I agree we should be able to do better, but I was thinking Keke would be 44/99.

[Michael Ferner]

Merde! I really thought I could score with an early Formula France championship, they had some whacky points systems back then, but the best I got was 36 % for François Laccarau in 1970 - malchance!

[ensign14]

Hermann Lang, who didn't bother with points to become 1939 European Champion.   /ducks

[2F-001]

I agree we should be able to do better, but I was thinking Keke would be 44/99.

No, you've lost me there… even if one discounts San Marino entirely there were fifteen rounds - weren't there? ( And Rosberg contested all of those.)

I suspect we may be talking with crossed purposes though...

[Michael Ferner]

Ahh, the wonders that a good meal will do to your brain...

This only seems relevant when the points score is seen as a percentage of the maximum available. With that in mind, I offer Keke Rosberg in 1982.
 
Other possibilities would be series in which few of the quicker drivers contested all races - whether because the series were not especially popular, the rounds were geographically dispersed or not all for the same category of car.
 
Beyond that, such a result may be viewed as sign of no contestants being outstandingly good, or all being evenly matched and having a close-fought series. As Jenks would have said: "Who did they beat?".

All very well, but it's only half of the story. The less important half, that is.

Much more important is the scoring method, which must have a "heavy head" in order for this to work. Like F1 in the eighties, or even more extreme like the Kokomo model, which is why Gary Fisher's 13 % will be very hard to beat. On the other end of the scale are the scoring methods with a "heavy belly", like Vuky's Midget title of 1950, or more modern examples like the WoO system where you have 50 % already by only showing up for every race. Most modern championships use heavy-belly scorings, so we need to look into the past. Well, this is TNF, it's our sepcialty, isn't it?

With that knowledge, the early AAA scoring don't look so bad, with several in the 30s percentage, but none of them cracks Keke, unfortunately. This is apparently tougher than I thought. The more I now think about it, therecan't be too many better examples, to paraphrase another thread participant. Maybe one or two Italian F3 champions...?

[byrkus]

It was best 11 results. So, 99 points were the maximum, even though there were 15 rounds.

[Tim Murray]

No, you've lost me there… even if one discounts San Marino entirely there were fifteen rounds - weren't there? ( And Rosberg contested all of those.)
I suspect we may be talking with crossed purposes though...

  

It was best 11 results. So, 99 points were the maximum, even though there were 15 rounds.

There were 16 rounds - there was never any reason to discount Imola, and all points scored there were counted in the final standings. As Byrkus says, only the best 11 results counted in the Drivers' Championship, but this didn't affect the final standings as nobody scored more than 10 times.

[Jimisgod]

Gil de Ferran in 2000 CART series? 168/440 = 38%

[Collombin]

It was best 11 results. So, 99 points were the maximum, even though there were 15 rounds.

Exactly - a perfect season could only garner a maximum of 99 points, and Keke got 44. Therefore we have found better examples.

[2F-001]

Ah - apologies… I considered dropped scores but had it mind, incorrectly, that all points counted in that year. So yes, 44/99.

 

I only mentioned the possibility of discounting Imola because Keke didn't take part - which is, I accept, introducing a different set of criteria.

[Jimisgod]

Lemier in the 2013 GP2 series? 201/528 = 38%

 

Pantano in the 2008 GP2 series? 76/200 = 38%

Edited by Jimisgod, 02 April 2016 - 01:17.

[SimeonSasparella]

Roberto Colciago won the Italian F3 championship in 1990, scoring only 38 points. On a total of 108 awarded (12 races)