41 replies to this topic

[AlexS]

A driver which has made no fault is punished for a team mistake. Why not just take out the team points if Hulkenberg car points in the end plus a fine?

[TheRacingElf]

*In come all the people pointing out F1 is a teamsport*

[Marklar]

You could argue that F1 is a team sport (sorry TheRacingElf  )

 

In that sense are engine/gearbox penalties for drivers fair? Are they also idiotic?

 

In my opinion a unsafe release is one of the worst things a team can do, because they are putting others in big danger, so a penalty, even a harsh one, is fairly deserved in general-

 

Of course we can discuss whether drivers should suffer from team mistakes. IMO they shouldn't, but that's a general discussion.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Because the driver is in the car? You punish one, you punish the other.

[New Britain]

A driver which has made no fault is punished for a team mistake. Why not just take out the team points if Hulkenberg car points in the end plus a fine?

 

If you punish the team but not the driver (by not moving back his grid position or another sanction), how do you compensate the other drivers who may well have been prevented from advancing into Q3? Just deducting WCC points does not do anything for them.

[D1rtyHarry]

They got real serious about loose wheels after a cameraman got hurt badly and hospitalised after one came off Webber's car in Nurburgring 2013. It is deserved in my opinion as it's a shoddy mistake to make and one that happens too often. My guess would be that they were rushing to get out and it wasn't secured properly.

[quaint]

They got real serious about loose wheels after a cameraman got hurt badly and hospitalised after one came off Webber's car in Nurburgring 2013. It is deserved in my opinion as it's a shoddy mistake to make and one that happens too often. My guess would be that they were rushing to get out and it wasn't secured properly.

 

.. and even if it was a mechanical failure, it was of the kind that should not happen.

[jonpollak]

Damn...and he's so cute too.

Jp

[Risil]

How was it fair to punish Lotus all those times Pastor Maldonado punted someone off the track? What did they do to deserve him?

[DeKnyff]

On track penalties are what the teams fear the most and the best way to make them understand it shouldn't happen again.

[Nonesuch]

A driver which has made no fault is punished for a team mistake.

 

The driver is part of the team. The team employs the driver to steer their car.

[HoldenRT]

It was 3 grid places not a 3 race ban.  He could have lost (or gain) that in the first corner tomorrow.

[SilverArrow31]

I felt he got off lightly. There is incredible stigma against not screwing a wheel on correctly, incidents include that camera man getting hit in the pits with a tire a few years back. I was expecting at least 10 places. Whether that is right or wrong is another story, but they have no choice but to punish the driver, its the only real deterrent to teams to ensure they don't make those kind of potentially dangerous mistakes.

[Risil]

What did we done to deserve Pastor? 

 

As someone once said, democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get Pastor Maldonado good and hard.

[Marklar]

I felt he got off lightly. There is incredible stigma against not screwing a wheel on correctly, incidents include that camera man getting hit in the pits with a tire a few years back. I was expecting at least 10 places. Whether that is right or wrong is another story, but they have no choice but to punish the driver, its the only real deterrent to teams to ensure they don't make those kind of potentially dangerous mistakes.

Yes, last year Bottas got a drive through and Renault got first a race ban in 2009, I admit races might be different, but I was also surprised that he just got 3 places (not saying that I wanted that he get more)

[OO7]

How was it fair to punish Lotus all those times Pastor Maldonado punted someone off the track? What did they do to deserve him?

Said yes to his £30 million worth of oil money (per year)?

[Risil]

Said yes to his £30 million worth of oil money (per year)?

 

Well, Hulkenberg said yes to all the benefits that flow from driving for Force India (no punchlines please).

[ANF]

Yes, last year Bottas got a drive through and Renault got first a race ban in 2009, I admit races might be different, but I was also surprised that he just got 3 places (not saying that I wanted that he get more)

I believe that was the first really harsh penalty in F1 for a loose wheel? And it was a week after Henry Surtees's fatal accident.

[LiftAndCoast]

Agree with the comments above as to why the penalty is fair - if anything a bit light.

When Ricciardo had the same happen to him in a race in 2014 (Malaysia IIRC) during the race, he lost huge time in the pits when he stopped in pit lane, then had to be pushed back, then had to serve a subsequent stop go penalty, then had to serve a 10 place grid penalty at the following race.

By comparison this is a moderate slap on the wrist!

The reality is that you have to impose a real penalty to incentivize the team to take proper care to secure the wheels. Fines or points just won't do it.

[DESCHAIN]

If Hulk gets a "superfast" pitstop by his team, he gets benefited. If to release the car in a moment that provided better track position they hurried the stop, is only fair that Hulk shares the penalty with the team.

[superden]

If it's a team error, in that the driver had no input, then yes these penalties are idiotic. Penalise the team via WCC or a financial penalty. Pushing the driver down the grid doesn't do anything to prevent it happening again and it does nothing for the racing element of the sport, though this is increasingly of less importance to the assclowns running F1.

[HP]

It would be nice to get more information on the entire incident. There's a verdict. Alright, but does it fit "the crime"?

 

I do like however Button's view on the incident with a circuit car at the pit entrance, and it applies here as well

 

 

 

http://www.autosport...us-pit-incident

 

Asked about the potential lack of consistency in the decision-making, Button replied: "It"s not a consistency issue. It's understanding what's important and what isn't."

[superden]

Hulks car was well off any line where anyone might reasonably be expected to hit it, so the red flag was at best, over the top. Yet, as JB noted, nobody red flagged the session for the asshats in marshal outfits who parked up for a chat at the pit entry. I don't think they have a clue what's important.

[Risil]

Did Jenson really say "asshat"?

[Marklar]

Did Jenson really say "asshat"?

I've read the word "asshat" (especially in this forum) far too often recently.....

[AlexS]

The fact that Hulk is  a Force India drivers doesn't mean that a driver should be penalised by every mistake the team makes, likewise if Hulk cheats or makes some driving error the team should not be penalised.

 

 

The alternative i put forward Force India team would be more penalised if their points are taken then dropping their driver 3 places.

 

 

What was Alonso penalty by Benetton-Briatore scandal?

 

What was Hamilton penalisation by Spygate?

 

None. They were no involved so they were not penalised.

Edited by AlexS, 16 April 2016 - 14:21.

[YoungGun]

It's fortunate it was Nico's left front wheel and went into the wall because for sure it would have hit passing cars if it was his right wheel that came of.

 

A 3 grid penalty was to soft.

[Marklar]

What was Hamilton penalisation by Spygate?

If you want to believe several conspiracy theories: he wasn't allowed to win the championship 

 

What was Alonso penalty by Benetton-Briatore scandal?

Not sure what you are refering to. If you are refering to the mass damper: it hampered his races and put his championship in danger. If you are refering to crash gate: Strangely enough this damaged Alonso's reputation as well.

[Risil]

Better not to go down the spying or Briatore rabbitholes. Stick to penalties for wheel mishaps, please.

[PistolPete]

3 grid places is not a lot for loosing a wheel... If you remove the points for driving then wouldn't it be better for Force India to just retire Hulk immediately after the start or maybe not lets him start at all, as sucha race would be wearing components for no good reason.

[ElDictatore]

The fact that Hulk is  a Force India drivers doesn't mean that a driver should be penalised by every mistake the team makes, likewise if Hulk cheats or makes some driving error the team should not be penalised.

 

 

The alternative i put forward Force India team would be more penalised if their points are taken then dropping their driver 3 places.

 

 

What was Alonso penalty by Benetton-Briatore scandal?

 

What was Hamilton penalisation by Spygate?

 

None. They were no involved so they were not penalised.

 

 

You can't possibly compare off-track scandals to a wheel getting lose on-track and endangering others in the process (although Nelson Jr. endangered others too). Those scandals are special cases where I imagine that the process to assess a fitting penalty will be handled differently.

Moreover those cases are already almost a decade old and we all know F1 have problems being consistent in their penalties over a season let alone ~8-9 years with a different leadership at the helm.

 

Now to this incident, it was and will never be possible to keep team and driver seperate and it's almost always the case that both suffer. Your example about Hulk cheating or having a driver error -  yes this does affect the team since with his penalty/retirement will result in WCC points getting lost while competitors inherited those points.

 

A discussion about on-track (time or grid penalty) or off-track penalties (points deduction) is worth it's own thread since one does affect other teams directly while the latter doesn't. Hulks case this time is special, since FI gained an advantage and others were screwed over so there is a point to be made that he should have some sort of on-track disadvantage. If FI just got their points deducted, that doesn't help the other teams in any way since Hulk still occupies his position. This difference is key to me (or maybe I'm just salty that McLaren didn't get into Q3).

 

Last but not least, the team not getting points will also hurt Perez because WCC points = money = competitiveness.

 

EDIT: 3 places is very lenient anyway, was expecting more.

Also just to summerize and getting in line with other posts, F1 is a teamsport!   

Edited by ElDictatore, 16 April 2016 - 14:52.

[ExFlagMan]

Hulks car was well off any line where anyone might reasonably be expected to hit it, so the red flag was at best, over the top. Yet, as JB noted, nobody red flagged the session for the asshats in marshal outfits who parked up for a chat at the pit entry. I don't think they have a clue what's important.

And where was the wheel going? - back towards the track - so what alternative did they have?  

Wait to see where it ended up and risk a driver hitting it?.

I guess they could have just marked it with a yellow,  but nobody could have improved their times anyway.

They could have sent someone out to retrieve it but the consensus on here is usually that iit is much too dangerous. 

[Hati]

If driver could get away from team errors with no penalties that would mean that (rich) teams would bend or brake rules for drivers benefit. If for example unsafe release would only bring fine to the team they could very well do it on purpose in some critical point of championship battle if that would give them advantage over competition.

Edited by Risil, 16 April 2016 - 15:28.
Keep away from Briatore and Spygate please

[pdac]

A driver which has made no fault is punished for a team mistake. Why not just take out the team points if Hulkenberg car points in the end plus a fine?

 

The driver should have got out of the car and checked that all the wheels were fitted correctly before he drove onto the track. If he didn't do this, then he's just a much, if not more, to blame (the team fitted the wheel, but he was the one that cause it to break loose from the car). See, there's always another point of view.

[uffen]

The FIA punishes drivers and teams separately all the time, team sport or not. The drivers don't get all the points the team gets anyway, so why not let the team lose points but not the driver?

In this case the driver suffered because he was prevented from (potentially) doing better times.

[AlexS]

If driver could get away from team errors with no penalties that would mean that (rich) teams would bend or brake rules for drivers benefit. If for example unsafe release would only bring fine to the team they could very well do it on purpose in some critical point of championship battle if that would give them advantage over competition.

 

 

Don't you distinguish in that case the driver gets an advantage.  The propose of a justice system is to punish well with fairness . That means to be able to distinguish what is different from what is equal.

 

Justice means the punishment fits the crime and that no more than necessary other parties that are not at fault should not be being directly punished.

[SPBHM]

the most effective way of penalizing the team is to also penalize the driver (which is part of the team) unfortunately, just reducing team points or a fine would be a lot lighter for the whole team

[KingTiger]

How would monetary fines even work if half the grid is already barely able to pay their bills? Who is the money going to go to?

[Quickshifter]

This is a sport where there is not much distinction can be made between the driver and  the team. When you penalize the driver you are penalizing  the team.

[Ev0d3vil]

I thought this would be a drive through and a grid penalty the race after. As agreed unanimously by the teams.

[HP]

I thought this would be a drive through and a grid penalty the race after. As agreed unanimously by the teams.

Where is it in the rules? Does that rule apply for the race only or is it for the race weekend?

[loki]