12 replies to this topic

[Okyo]

Hey folks. Can't say i'm good at starting threats with a wall of text, so i'll just go to the point.

What is the learning curve for most F1 drivers? Here i'm talking mostly about the first couple of years, but feel free to expand on to whole careers. Just how much time does it take for a F1 driver to reach his, more or less, peak? I can't really say that i've seen drivers to get better at it after their 2nd or 3rd year, for some a single year is enough and then they perform in the more or less same level (speed and consistency wise). I mean, F1 ain't their first year in racing as most drivers have been in this since they were little (kart racing, junior formulas etc.) so often we seen driving styles, attitudes and performance overal not changing.

The whole question rises from many people saying about some drivers that they haven't stepped up yet, or that they are still young and they'll get even better and so on.

Would like people to state examples that they recall, of drivers in this sports history that had a longer period of improvement with the end result being a noticeably better driver, or just state your opinions on this matter overall.

Discuss. 

Edited by Okyo, 18 April 2016 - 18:40.

[Marklar]

Maldonado's learning curve

 

I think it depends from driver to driver.

[apoka]

Maldonado's learning curve

 

I think it depends from driver to driver.

 

It's hard to improve on perfection. 

 

A tribute. 

[FullOppositeLock]

Interesting topic. I think experience is a bit overplayed. Most of the really good drivers have shown their skill very early on, and lately it appears that younger drivers adapt faster whilst older drivers drop back a little earlier. The fact these cars are easier to drive in terms of physical and mental attributes than in the past probably plays a big role in that.

[917k]

Interesting topic. I think experience is a bit overplayed. Most of the really good drivers have shown their skill very early on, and lately it appears that younger drivers adapt faster whilst older drivers drop back a little earlier. The fact these cars are easier to drive in terms of physical and mental attributes than in the past probably plays a big role in that.

 

Most drivers say these cars are far harder to drive, mentally, than anything in the past. So much to manage on-board these days. Not saying this is a good or bad thing...

[Okyo]

It used to take over one season, but now i dear say it's usually what you see on the first season is what you get pace wise, with SOME lacking stability and learning not to crash (though not all seemed to learn it) over an extra season. 

With the ban on all out testing a decade ago i would have thought it would get harder to integrate, but results show otherwise. Like last Bahrain weekend. I was blown away by Vandoome who outqualified Button and drove a flawless race.  We had Lewis almost winning a WDC against Fernando as a team mate on his first season. 

That's why i don't really buy it when people say, ''oh he's young, he's gonna better in the future". I don't buy the idea that Perez would be noticably better now than when he was at McLaren. I don't buy the idea that Lewis would be even stronger now against Fernando. There's the element of the car fitting to a driver of course, but i do think today's drivers can adjust themselves well enough to a car fast that it becomes close to being invalid.

 

[cpbell]

Considering the history of the sport for a moment, I think some drivers continue improving for several seasons after their debut, whereas others are brilliant early on.  In the former category I would nominate Mansell, who didn't really become the difficult-to-handle force of nature he often seemed to be in his pomp until several years after his first GP, and, more recently, Fernando Alonso.  In the latter, I would place someone like Jim Clark, who was brilliant from the early part of his third season in Formula 1 (the point at which he first sat in a race-wiining car), and who had shown flashes of greatness prior to that.  Nowadays, the percentage of slow-maturers is probably lower than it used to be thanks to all the athlete performance programmes and scientific preparation of development drivers, which I think helps them to get closer to the pace earlier than they otherwise would.  Of course, this is merely my opinion.

[Archer]

IMO: qualifying pace would take them maybe 10 pre-season test days, race pace maybe half a season, handling the tyres degradation, setups, and all the media and politics I think it would take the 3 first seasons to peak, racecraft and consistent performances takes maybe the first 2 seasons.

[chr1s]

  I think Lauda is a good example of a driver who looked quite out of his depth in Formula one at first, although he was driving some pretty poor cars.  Mika Hakkinen is another who seemed to take some time to come good and Mansell has already been mentioned. You could also make a case for Jenson Button, who, until he got to Brawn used to make me wonder how he was in Formula one at all. You could add Mark Webber to the list as well.  That's my two cents!

[Nathan]

 

I don't buy the idea that Perez would be noticably better now than when he was at McLaren. I don't buy the idea that Lewis would be even stronger now against Fernando.

This I would argue.  If you are strictly speaking of talent, you are probably right.  However where your mind is at determines what you produce IMO. I would argue Perez was a better package the first day he started at McLaren versus his last simply because I don't think his mind was as positive and confident.

 

I think the mind is what you develop in your early years as an F1 driver.  Where is their confidence curve going? Can you deal with the pressure, the expectations, the more intense rivalries, become a leader, the silly season etc..  Mika and Nige always had their talent, but were they able to apply it in their early days? Button came in as the next thing, then 2 seasons later the hype was over.  How does a 22-year old handle that?

Edited by Nathan, 18 April 2016 - 23:34.

[HoldenRT]

10 or 15 years ago it was a lot harder, so it's hard to compare rookies now to then.  Add into that extra simulator work etc.  There's less in season testing and there's a crazy amount of multi tasking they had to do behind the wheel, but from a pure driving point of view.. the cars are very quick and easy to drive downforce wise, and they aren't always pushing 100% but more 'managing' things.

 

I agree with Marklar that it's different for every driver, depending on what their weakness is.  Personality/maturity in terms of calmness in pressure situations, or racecraft and errors, overtaking, patience, raw pace etc etc.  There are so many aspects to being a polished well rounded driver and it's hard for anyone to have it all perfect in the first year or two.  Someone like Lewis, he came into F1 with a bang with raw pace but there were other things he needed to fix.  Some drivers continue to improve, others wither away.  A big part of it also depends on the regs and the team they are driving.  For example the McLaren of last year with Alonso or Button, those are career destroying type years.  But sometimes it can be as the tyre brand or the type of engine etc.  Drivers always have preferences for car balance, types of tyre etc etc.. and sometimes luck helps as well in terms of the stars aligning.  But despite all of that, the truly great drivers are usually good regardless of what the regs are.  They find a way to shine. 

[Imperial]

The last two drivers where I've truly witnessed an improvement in car-handling and general racecraft in their early years were Felipe Massa and Fernando Alonso.

Both were 'spectacular' in some way in their formative stages, but perhaps overly-enthusiastic, but went on to have a marked improvement in later seasons.

I don't think it's coincidence at all that they were taken out as race drivers after their debut season, and did a season of testing - when you could run restriction free.

Both came back as far better drivers.

Another one I'd add is Romain Grosjean. His circumstances were different in that he seemed to get worse the longer he went, although the witch hunt led by Mark Webber was totally disproportionate. But Grosjean got his head down, worked on it, and is much improved.

On the opposite end of the spectrum was Lewis Hamilton. While this is no critique of the driver himself, his first season was to an extent 'dull' in terms of there was no learning curve! He was on it immediately. But that was all a by-product of having done the most miles in test history. He coupled it with his existing talent from the outset and by and large there was no learning curve.

Edited by Imperial, 19 April 2016 - 08:08.

[sopa]

Interesting topic. I think experience is a bit overplayed. Most of the really good drivers have shown their skill very early on, and lately it appears that younger drivers adapt faster whilst older drivers drop back a little earlier. The fact these cars are easier to drive in terms of physical and mental attributes than in the past probably plays a big role in that.

 

I agree in the grand scheme of things experience isn't that significant differentiator in terms of delivering results. A talented rookie would still beat a lesser talented experienced driver over a season.

 

The difference comes in some details. A rookie driver can be somewhat more inconsistent in terms of finding setup on some occasions - for example IIRC Hamilton was wildly off Alonso's race pace at the 2007 British Grand Prix. Or rookie can make some mistakes, which he cuts out later in his career, i.e Grosjean in 2012, or Vettel in 2010.

 

Drivers of course keep making mistakes till the end of their career, but the frequency and in some cases the type (i.e Grosjean's start crashes) of mistakes have been ironed out.

 

Of course, in some cases the amount of mistakes increases in the of twilight careers, when driver is already past his peak. I.e Coulthard crashed a lot in 2008, and M. Schumacher lost lots of front wings after his comeback at Mercedes. In these cases you can rightfully ask - what is the use of experience then?