82 replies to this topic

[THEWALL]

http://www.autosport...eriment-in-2016

 

What do you think?

 

I believe it would kind of devaluate the current championship just when things seem to be improving race-wise. However, I'd be up for trying intelligent changes in order to improve 2017, and even this season, and determine if deeper changes are really needed for 2017. 

 

Among the things I'd be open to for trial:

 

-no mandatory use of compounds

 

-no fuel limits

 

-no engine and gearbox limits

 

-more tyres for the weekend

 

-what HAM said in the last sentence: try a race with no tyre changes.

 

-given technical and safety feasability, I'd be even open to a change of front wings during the long break.

[Norm]

There is nothing wrong with the format. Last week he was saying that the issue was with the cars/tires, and the inability to pass. Let's focus on fair payment distribution and developing regulations that encourage racing/passing - if that can be achieved then all else should fall into place.

Stop worrying about the show and worry about the sport.

Edited by Norm, 23 April 2016 - 01:18.

[Vettelari]

I agree that there is nothing that needs to be changed drastically about the format.

If it is a minor change like bringing 4 tire compounds to a race instead of 3, I think I would be alright with that.

[MasterOfCoin]

A good experiment would be to have each driver with their own pit crew, they currently have about 20 guys on a typical stop which is not really necessary, use some of them for the 2nd car, this could make the race interesting.

[Incast]

How many global sports decide to 'experiment' as frequently as Formula 1?

 

The meddling detracts from its credibility - the latest qualifying changes have brought it particularly into focus for the casual fans.

 

There seems to be a collective delusion within the paddock that declining viewing figures can be somehow reversed with magical format changes. The sport is transitioning to pay TV and the audience will continue to tumble. Alongside this, CVC extracts from the sport, there is no evidence I have ever seen that they have invested - enormous sums of money are sucked out each year which could be used to improve the product in so many ways.

 

Few of the motorsport journalists can face up to this reality - perhaps understandably since their livelihood is dependent on the sport remaining healthy and not annoying the powers that be. The broadcasters will simply ignore this unwilling to threaten their large investments.

 

It speaks volumes to me that the sport has been for sale for some time and still has no buyer, other than Bernie occasionally making media announcements to stir things up. I cannot think of any rational investor who would want to buy it in its current state.

[armchair expert]

I think the racing this year is as good as it's ever been, if not better. The change to the tyre rules allowing the extra compound works a treat. I'd leave it alone for this year. 

Lewis' comments suggest he's written this year off. 

[MikeV1987]

It would make zero sense and take away whatever credibility this sport has left. So, no thanks.

Edited by MikeV1987, 23 April 2016 - 02:40.

[baddog]

Anything that involves removing false restrictions/boosts is better racing on principle, and changes allowing development are better because they reduce entrenched advantage when it arises.

 

Farking around with qualifying rules is however a waste of time and just disruption for his own sake.. something he would not likely be suggesting if he was 3 wins to the good and cruising ;)

Edited by baddog, 23 April 2016 - 02:47.

[tmekt]

-no mandatory use of compounds

I think the mandatory use is essential for the whole compound thing to work. We would see a lot of weekends when many/most/all teams use only one compound for the race, which means less variation of strategies, which means the pace differences would be more or less fixed for the whole of the race --> dull.

 

-no fuel limits

Racing-wise, I can't think of many negatives but the positives likely wouldn't be all that visible either. It has more to do with cars going around faster in general, I think. No lifting and coasting etc.

 

-no engine and gearbox limits

Less penalties and less need for protecting the engines with less powerful engine modes etc. Maybe less "racing" as everybody would run the machinery at 100% (removes the risk of having to run the engine at lower levels than the competition).

 

-more tyres for the weekend

Wouldn't make much of a difference really. They're not gonna do that many more pit-stops in the race anyway even with unlimited tires so it's more of a matter of removing the risk of not having fresh sets for every stint or something like that.

 

-what HAM said in the last sentence: try a race with no tyre changes.

Didn't they try this in 2005 or something? Not sure the effect was positive, more of an engineering challenge for tire manufacturers (see Indy -05). In the non-refueling era, it means no pit-stops whatsoever which would probably make some, if not most, of the races majorly dull.

 

-given technical and safety feasability, I'd be even open to a change of front wings during the long break.

Do you mean giving them more freedom in terms of the technical regulations? Difficult to predict the results were that to happen, could lead to one team having even more of an edge over the rest than what Merc has now. Obviously, from that team's perspective, it would be earned but from the spectator's perspective, dull.

 

-Hamilton's proposal of experimenting with the weekend format: sprint/feature races, super race weekends, heats, different format each week.

No. Just no.

[dgsg]

More driving & less thinking. Do what your paid to do and STFU!

[Giz]

What formula one needs - races like the 3 we've had so far this year

What formula one doesn't need - more rule changes

[GrumpyYoungMan]

More driving & less thinking. Do what your paid to do and STFU!

...and of course you always think about your day job 24/7?!

No, I didn't think so!

[TF110]

Here we go blaming and labeling Hamilton for answering questions! It's not impossible to concentrate on your job but answer questions on your time off.

[Marklar]

There is nothing wrong with doing experiments. Every sport is doing that. Just nobody is noticing as every other sport is trying new things in lower/junior categories out. If they want to experiment then do that first somewhere else to see if it is working.

Generally the only issue for me is the following of other cars problem (especially in combination with tyres). Anything else is just optimizing

[Marklar]

More driving & less thinking. Do what your paid to do and STFU!

Villeneuve or Bernie?

Farking around with qualifying rules is however a waste of time and just disruption for his own sake.. something he would not likely be suggesting if he was 3 wins to the good and cruising ;)

IIRC he said something similar after the Australia qualifying. And last year, while dominating, he repeatately said that he is bored by the weekend format and suggested similar things...so on the bolded: no.

Lewis' comments suggest he's written this year off.

You are a real armchair expert ;)

Last year two races before he won the title...did he wrote the year also off?

"...But I think it would be kind of neat, if one weekend's going to be a 'super weekend,' and the next weekend's going to be something different, alternating grid positions or something.
"I don't know what it is, but it would be neat if each weekend you were not doing the same thing – this weekend's going to be completely different, we've got this to face, then the next weekend something else.
"I think that would be pretty cool. But it's highly unlikely that's ever going to happen – it's all hearsay."

http://t.co/9xjfNAdoS8

Edited by Marklar, 23 April 2016 - 07:10.

[pdac]

The disastrous 2016 qualifying format - like many other ideas - can be trashed out without a car ever hitting the track. If they spent a few minutes talking the idea over with the rest of the team personnel (especially those dealing with strategy) they would have realised roughly how it would pan  out and they would not have needed to 'try' it.

 

That's what should be done - think up new ideas and then think about how they will truly work. If the come up with one or two that seem interesting after that process, then given them a try on track.

[PlatenGlass]

Among the things I'd be open to for trial:

-no mandatory use of compounds

I wouldn't merely trial this. I would implement it immediately with no conditions. The mandatory use of two compounds, along with DRS, is the poster boy for the whole "spice things up for the show" BS.

[YoungGun]

Villeneuve or Bernie?

IIRC he said something similar after the Australia qualifying. And last year, while dominating, he repeatately said that he is bored by the weekend format and suggested similar things...so on the bolded: no.

 

Someone should remind Lewis, F1 is not like attempting to write music where if you hit the wrong note there are no serious consequences. 

[Jimisgod]

http://www.autosport...eriment-in-2016

 

What do you think?

 

I believe it would kind of devaluate the current championship just when things seem to be improving race-wise. However, I'd be up for trying intelligent changes in order to improve 2017, and even this season, and determine if deeper changes are really needed for 2017. 

 

Among the things I'd be open to for trial:

 

-no mandatory use of compounds

 

-no fuel limits

 

-no engine and gearbox limits

 

-more tyres for the weekend

 

-what HAM said in the last sentence: try a race with no tyre changes.

 

-given technical and safety feasability, I'd be even open to a change of front wings during the long break.

 

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. No. Yes.

[Hati]

Well, if he's bored I have one suggestion that spices his Sundays: No cars with number 44 allowed on track in Saturday, No dull Sundays when starting from pits.

 

Why he hasn't followed the sport? If he had he would know how well any experiment would work. We need real well thought changes, not random experiments.

[Razoola]

Experiments should be left for testing only, not during a Saturday or Sunday, and certinally not apply changes a couple of weeks before the season starts.

 

F1 prides itsself on stats and simulation. If they (teams bosses included) would have listened to the stratagy people they would have known the 2016 quali idea would fail before it started. More so however, If they would have done computer models and simulation, they would have come to the same result. Only after models show something is workable should it be tested, but not on a live Saturday or Sunday!

 

This is where F1 fails bigtime. F1 uses the latest tech to reach the best outcome on one one level, but results to what I would call brainstorming on another without testing.

 

It seems to me based on Hamiltons comments, he has already written off 2016 and is looking to 2017.

Edited by Razoola, 23 April 2016 - 07:51.

[P123]

Experimenting is not such a bad idea, but not during race weekends. It's what they should have done prior to introducing the elimination countdown clock... Besides, you'd need to have some faith in those coming up with the ideas, and none of the prats in the F1 circus have shown themselves to be competent or capable of improving the racing.

For those who 'think' this must mean Hamilton has written off this season, he made the same comments in Oz when quali was the hot topic, and he made similar comments last year about the format of the race weekend.

[ExFlagMan]

I guess it would provide another entry to the Nigel Mansell Big Book of Driver Excuses - I didn't win because they kept changing the rules!

Edited by ExFlagMan, 23 April 2016 - 08:08.

[senna da silva]

Based on the number of people currently whining about F1 and wanting change, I don't think Lewis is wrong.

[TomNokoe]

He's wrong and should stop chipping in with an opinion just for the sake of it. It would not be 'cool', as he likes to call his ideas.

If you want to experiment then make motor racing an Olympic Sport or run a special non-championship event during the summer break with spec cars.

[Marklar]

He's wrong and should stop chipping in with an opinion just for the sake of it. It would not be 'cool', as he likes to call his ideas.

If you want to experiment then make motor racing an Olympic Sport or run a special non-championship event during the summer break with spec cars.

Talking about not 'cool' ideas

[YoungGun]

Talking about not 'cool' ideas

 

Think of the "bling" Lewis could make with his Bronze Medal though. 

[Quickshifter]

The qualifying fiasco already has done serious damage to how casually f1 takes decisions with scant regard for fans. F1 needs to concentrate on getting the tires and the next regulations right instead of resorting to gimmicks.

[Araqiel]

With the abundance of tech and computer-derived strategies in modern F1, I'm surprised nobody has suggested a simulated race weekend to try out these sorts of ideas. Certainly would have shown the flaws with elimination qualifying (not that it needed a supercomputer to figure out), and a mix of driver-in-loop and independent simulation could test a lot of ideas much quicker and with significantly less cost than actually getting all the cars to a dedicated test session.

[ANF]

"For the last 100 years it's pretty much been the same," Messi said. "It needs to be different, because 38 rounds of the same 90-minute matches, I just think we should shake it up a bit.
"I love playing football, but for sure if the format was different each fixture it would be exciting for people."

[Szoelloe]

"I definitely think we should use this year as an opportunity to come up with some ideas and test some things which have a small implication on the race weekend".

 

Huh? Why this year? Why and since when is this year an opportunity?

[Trust]

Hamilton wants experiments maybe just because he sees his chance to comeback in championship if Rosberg makes some mistakes. Cause lets admit, every change is making easier for some mistakes to happen. I don't think he would be saying this if he was leading championship.

[Marklar]

Hamilton wants experiments maybe just because he sees his chance to comeback in championship if Rosberg makes some mistakes. Cause lets admit, every change is making easier for some mistakes to happen. I don't think he would be saying this if he was leading championship.

Except that he said the same last year while leading the championship. Any explanation for that?

[statman]

After 3 races and not really great results for Lewis, he's taking Bernie's slogan of 'Think before you drive' literally..

Edited by statman, 23 April 2016 - 10:43.

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

Experiments, of course!

Experiment 1: Kick the big teams from the strategy group and monitor if the decisions the group makes improve.

Experiment 2: Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel donate half of their income to the smallest teams.

[Trust]

Except that he said the same last year while leading the championship. Any explanation for that?

This statement is from end of the season when he almost was guaranteed the title. And of course no one will experiment in last few races. Imagine the shitstorm if he lost the title because of that.

 

Of course, everything what I say is just speculation.

Edited by Trust, 23 April 2016 - 10:45.

[RekF1]

Except that he said the same last year while leading the championship. Any explanation for that?

This is what, the third time you've explained this in this thread?

[Marklar]

This is what, the third time you've explained this in this thread?

2nd ;)

 

 

This statement is from end of the season when he almost was guaranteed the title. And of course no one will experiment in last few races. Imagine the shitstorm if he lost the title because of that.

 

Of course, everything what I say is just speculation.

He also said after the Australian qualifying in an Channel 4 interview exactly the same thing again (neither he was behind in the championship nor was his title secured....), so I believe him that this is his honest opinion, even if I disagree with him. When drivers say something it isn't always a hidden agenda. People were speculating recently that Vettel want to revert back to V8 engine just because Ferrari is struggling, but everyone forgot that he always disliked the current engines. Same now with Hamilton: he is saying now for quite a long time that he doesn't like that the weekend format is the same for 10 years and would fancy new challenges. Fair enough. It would be different if he always supported the current weekend format and would now suddenly want to shake up things

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Hamilton wants experiments maybe just because he sees his chance to comeback in championship if Rosberg makes some mistakes. Cause lets admit, every change is making easier for some mistakes to happen. I don't think he would be saying this if he was leading championship.

Doubt he needs a rule shake up to get on terms with Rosberg!

[Baddoer]

A driver should stick to driving, period. Or, alternatively, hip-hop.

[P123]

If you want to experiment then make motor racing an Olympic Sport or run a special non-championship event during the summer break with spec cars.

That's the problem with 'experimenting'- everybody has a couple of crap ideas of their own! It would be chaos.

[JHSingo]

I disagree with what Lewis is saying.

 

The problem with "experimenting" is that you've got as good a chance of coming up with an absolutely terrible idea as a good idea, as elimination qualifying proved.

 

And when you come up with a terrible idea, it's not a very good idea to learn about its faults in front of paying fans. It just causes embarrassment for the sport, and probably pisses off a lot of fans as well.

If they're that adamant about trying new things, I'd say the best thing to do would be to arrange a test weekend or whatever, where they can trial new qualifying ideas and anything else. And, if they don't work, it really doesn't matter as there would be very few fans there and it wouldn't be being broadcast to the world.

[F1matt]

There is nothing wrong with doing experiments. Every sport is doing that. Just nobody is noticing as every other sport is trying new things in lower/junior categories out. If they want to experiment then do that first somewhere else to see if it is working.

Generally the only issue for me is the following of other cars problem (especially in combination with tyres). Anything else is just optimizing

Really? How many other sports constantly tinker? And during the season?

[Marklar]

Really? How many other sports constantly tinker? And during the season?

I know that the ITF (international tennis federation) will test in an U21 tournament new rules out (which might be implemented into the ATP/WTA tour) to see if it is working. The FIFA tested the goal-line technology the first time the at the Club world cup and the Conferderations Cup (nobody cares about that as well). Every sport is experimenting, but not in the public eye and that's what F1 is doing wrong and that's why Hamilton's proposal would be a disaster.

[Seanspeed]

F1 already 'experiments' more than most any other sport I can think of.  

 

I like the constant rule changes, honestly.  Keeps things fresh and interesting each year.  The changes simply have to be well thought through, is all.  Obviously some recent ones haven't been...

[plumtree]

I know that the ITF (international tennis federation) will test in an U21 tournament new rules out (which might be implemented into the ATP/WTA tour) to see if it is working. The FIFA tested the goal-line technology the first time the at the Club world cup and the Conferderations Cup (nobody cares about that as well). Every sport is experimenting, but not in the public eye and that's what F1 is doing wrong and that's why Hamilton's proposal would be a disaster.

What are they? I've never heard of a U21 tournament in tennis, let alone any experiment of rule change. 

[Exb]

Yes - lets experiment and give Red Bull a Mercedes engine and see if it improves the competitiveness and excitement at the front

 

 

On a serious note - just NO  and never during the season. As well as turning the series into a farce and laughing stock it is totally unfair on fans that pay a lot of money to attend a race and end up watching some experiment going horribly wrong. I think the only thing that qualifying failure from the first 2 races showed is that if any change needs to be made to format (and personally I think that is the last thing that needs changing) it should be well thought through and trialled in a test first before they all embarrass themselves further..

[Marklar]

What are they? I've never heard of a U21 tournament in tennis, let alone any experiment of rule change. 

https://twitter.com/...798114341814272

[Clatter]

I don't disagree with LH's sentiment at all. There are lot of workable ideas put forward on this forum alone. The problem I see is whatever they try works for one or two races and then stagnates as everyone learns how the new system works and all migrate to the same strategy. Maybe the way forward is to have a set of potential rules and randomise a choice to be used over the weekend.

[plumtree]

https://twitter.com/...798114341814272

I guess David Law isn't bullshiting but even Google shows zero search result for 'ITF under 21 tournament'. Even if it exists somewhere I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be a pro circuit of any kind of importance. (Sorry for the off-topic chat)

Edit" Maybe it was a typo for U16 or 14 or whatever junior tournaments, which is a completely different matter from experimenting in F1, the so-called pinnacle of motor sport.

Edited by plumtree, 23 April 2016 - 12:34.