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HAM thinks F1 should experiment


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#51 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 12:29

randomise a choice to be used over the weekend.

I appreciate this sort of suggestion from a spitball perspective, but I think F1, rightly or wrongly, is already suffering from a bit of a reputation problem in terms of 'artificial nonsense'.  This sort of thing would take the cake and would really make the show-over-sport sort of decisions more up front than I think is really good for the series.  No matter what one's opinion of how things are now, I think most would agree that the 'sport' of things needs to be maintained as much as possible. 



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#52 Araqiel

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 12:41

The word 'random' has no place in top-level sporting competition.

#53 Fatgadget

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 12:46

Yeah why not? How else you gonna liven up something that has become boring? :D

#54 Marklar

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 12:52

Edit" Maybe it was a typo for U16 or 14 or whatever junior tournaments, which is a completely different matter from experimenting in F1, the so-called pinnacle of motor sport.

That's what I also suspected.

 

I agree that this is an different matter than that what F1 is doing. And that is exactly the mistake (which I was trying to point out): I don't get why they can't test all these BS ideas in feeder series out, before they will be considered in F1. Again, that's how other sports are doing that and it works.


Edited by Marklar, 23 April 2016 - 12:53.


#55 Seanspeed

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 13:04

That's what I also suspected.

 

I agree that this is an different matter than that what F1 is doing. And that is exactly the mistake (which I was trying to point out): I don't get why they can't test all these BS ideas in feeder series out, before they will be considered in F1. Again, that's how other sports are doing that and it works.

F1 is different than feeder series, though.  You've gotta look at the rules package and general state of a series as a whole.  Things interplay with each other.  You can change one variable in a lower series and see how it works out, but that doesn't mean that same variable change will work out the same when inserted into an F1 equation.  

 

For me, I kinda like F1 being the test ground and originator of rules that trickle down, rather the other way around.  



#56 pacificquay

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 13:25

Ludicrous suggestion from Hamilton which demeans the office of World Champion.

He wants change for the sake of change.

#57 Atreiu

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 14:10

They should have non GP weekends and use them for experiments.

 

Pitch it to Bahrain. A weekend with two races, or reversed grids, or no fuel limitations, or full radio bans, or fixed number or mechanics at work during a pit stop, or anything else worth trying.

 

And have them pay double for the priviledge of an entirely distinct race weekend (and effectively subsidize a race which matters, like Spa).



#58 nosecone

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 14:16

Lets just remove DRS for tracks with long straights (as a trial). Then drop the mandatory use of two compounds. Then try lifting the 100kg fuel limit for one fuel intensive race (probably for Singapore) to see if lift and cost ends. Try a race without the weight distribution fixed... and so on



#59 P123

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 14:18

Ludicrous suggestion from Hamilton which demeans the office of World Champion.

He wants change for the sake of change.


I'm not sure if your first sentence was fluffy sarcastic bluster poking fun at faux outrage, but it made me laugh anyway!

Of course it's a nonsense suggestion, but change for the sake of change is what F1 does, especially when it starts listening to the whims of fans and cherry picks things to fiddle with.

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#60 Clatter

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 14:26

I appreciate this sort of suggestion from a spitball perspective, but I think F1, rightly or wrongly, is already suffering from a bit of a reputation problem in terms of 'artificial nonsense'. This sort of thing would take the cake and would really make the show-over-sport sort of decisions more up front than I think is really good for the series. No matter what one's opinion of how things are now, I think most would agree that the 'sport' of things needs to be maintained as much as possible.

I don't disagree with you, it's just that almost every change made over the years to spice things up has only had a short term effect. It's perhaps time to do something different to keep people on their toes.

#61 cpbell

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 14:41

The word 'random' has no place in top-level sporting competition.

 

In general, I agree, though I would point-out that most, if not all, Grands Prix had a grid position draw until at least the second half of the 1930s.



#62 pdac

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 14:49

It would be most exciting if they completely changed the rules at each event and told the teams just before FP1.

#63 HP

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 14:58

Thinking should come before experimenting please.

 

Except that he said the same last year while leading the championship. Any explanation for that?

Same as this year. He's bored. But really why should Hamilton's already exciting job be made less boring? Most everyday worker would probably be feel quite privileged had they a tenth of Hamilton's excitment.

 

Since Hamilton also spoke about him doing more for the sport than any driver before him, I know there is something brewing in F1. What will it be?



#64 THEWALL

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 15:06

There is nothing wrong with the format. Last week he was saying that the issue was with the cars/tires, and the inability to pass. Let's focus on fair payment distribution and developing regulations that encourage racing/passing - if that can be achieved then all else should fall into place.

Stop worrying about the show and worry about the sport.

I agree with there being nothing wrong with the format and with the general notion that if you fix the big payment inequalities and implement rules that improve racing, the rest should take care of itself.

 

I was looking at this more from a perspective of fine tuning something that has already improved, not from an "improve the show" mentality. If you take a look at the changes I propose, most would aim to eliminate the fake aspects that have been implemented to supposedly improve (randomize really) the show.



#65 HP

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 15:13

It would be most exciting if they completely changed the rules at each event and told the teams just before FP1.

Exciting maybe but then it's not a championship anymore, Just a lottery. And an expensive one at that and because of randomness  and a quite wasteful one too. Now cue in potential sponsors and it should be obvious that this type of recipe is destroying F1 in no time. And it won't be racing anymore. What is needed that different strategies can be used in arace and racing close is feasable.

 

Other than that randomness will also lead to richer teams further dominating, They throw more efforts into preparedness, while the teams with lower budget continue to struggle to stay afloat. Occasionally they hit the jackpot. But as in real life, winning the jackpot usually is short lived only.



#66 Atreiu

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 15:21

Non GPs would be perfect for this.

 

- Hockenheim, are you having trouble with the hosting fees? Kind of sucks because Germany is a nice place. Let's try this. you pay half for a race that gives no points, but you get to try all different formats and rule tweaks. Hopefully the changes will spark curiosity and boost attendance. And if it still isn't enough to raise attendance and make profits, then we'll have to go separate ways, but at people will know we tried to do something interesting and worthwhile, instead of just winging it.


Edited by Atreiu, 23 April 2016 - 15:22.


#67 THEWALL

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 15:31

-no mandatory use of compounds
I think the mandatory use is essential for the whole compound thing to work. We would see a lot of weekends when many/most/all teams use only one compound for the race, which means less variation of strategies, which means the pace differences would be more or less fixed for the whole of the race --> dull.

 
Not necessarily. The mandatory use of compounds was introduced to try to make things more random, in other words, to artificially influence the race by having teams use compounds that don't favor them, their drivers or their strategy.  If you eliminate the mandatory use, drivers will choose the compounds that are best for their cars, driving styles and strategies, making the somewhat fake effect you are seeing in these last races, real. 
 

-no fuel limits
Racing-wise, I can't think of many negatives but the positives likely wouldn't be all that visible either. It has more to do with cars going around faster in general, I think. No lifting and coasting etc.

-no engine and gearbox limits
Less penalties and less need for protecting the engines with less powerful engine modes etc. Maybe less "racing" as everybody would run the machinery at 100% (removes the risk of having to run the engine at lower levels than the competition).
 
-more tyres for the weekend
Wouldn't make much of a difference really. They're not gonna do that many more pit-stops in the race anyway even with unlimited tires so it's more of a matter of removing the risk of not having fresh sets for every stint or something like that.
 


The idea with all of these is allowing drivers and equipment to be at their best: with fuel, tyres, engines, gearboxes, etc. Because racing is not a car that is conserving tyres, engine, gearbox or fuel less, pass a car that is conserving more; it's two drivers with their cars in as optimal state as possible and with as little difference as possible, giving it their 100% to see who is more talented. 
 

-what HAM said in the last sentence: try a race with no tyre changes.
Didn't they try this in 2005 or something? Not sure the effect was positive, more of an engineering challenge for tire manufacturers (see Indy -05). In the non-refueling era, it means no pit-stops whatsoever which would probably make some, if not most, of the races majorly dull.

They did. If people think pit stops are what make races exciting, then, well, IMO they are watching the wrong sport or don't understand it correctly. IMO if the rest of factors where corrected and the races were already closer, this would be the final ingredient for best racing. However, until they are fine tuned, yeah, it can make races more lineal. 
 

-given technical and safety feasability, I'd be even open to a change of front wings during the long break.
Do you mean giving them more freedom in terms of the technical regulations? Difficult to predict the results were that to happen, could lead to one team having even more of an edge over the rest than what Merc has now. Obviously, from that team's perspective, it would be earned but from the spectator's perspective, dull.

Nope, I mean changing the regs for the front wing, so come up with new, simpler, narrower specs and have everyone build new ones to the new specs. Of course, I'm not sure this would be technically realistic given the relation with other parts of the cars. But if it was, I'd welcome it for sure. 
 

-Hamilton's proposal of experimenting with the weekend format: sprint/feature races, super race weekends, heats, different format each week.
No. Just no.

Totally, the no tyre change idea I contemplated not as part of a sprint race or something similar, but, as said, as an element to be introduced if and when the other competitive factors are already working.



#68 SilverArrow31

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 16:59

I both love and hate the whole "Less talking, more driving" or telling drivers to shut up in comments when articles like this come out. I see them everywhere. Anyone would think Hamilton ran though the streets screaming "look at me! look at me! I have ideas!" Instead of doing what he is paid to do. Go to press conferences and answer some questions about current F1 events. Mainly the qualy debacle and plans for what's going to happen next year.

 

I completely disagree with him on this one though. The cars are at fault, not the format, and the racing hasn't been bad this year so far anyway.



#69 pdac

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 17:10

Exciting maybe but then it's not a championship anymore, Just a lottery. And an expensive one at that and because of randomness  and a quite wasteful one too. Now cue in potential sponsors and it should be obvious that this type of recipe is destroying F1 in no time. And it won't be racing anymore. What is needed that different strategies can be used in arace and racing close is feasable.
 
Other than that randomness will also lead to richer teams further dominating, They throw more efforts into preparedness, while the teams with lower budget continue to struggle to stay afloat. Occasionally they hit the jackpot. But as in real life, winning the jackpot usually is short lived only.


Mine was a tongue-in-cheek comment based on how the powers that be seem to see it.

 

I agree that it would be nice if there were different strategies playing out, but how often have we heard drivers asking for a change in strategy during a race only to be told that the simulator says that they strategy they are on is the fastest.

 

That's the real problem. All of the teams use computers to calculate the best strategy and ... surprise surprise ... they all tend to come up with the same strategy. Also, the teams decide in the pits which drivers each of theirs are racing and, because they can call them on the radio, they will cover any pit stops.

 

So whilst we might want to see different strategies being used, unless you take away the radio and take measures to ensure that they can't calculate races in advance, it's not going to happen.



#70 tifosi

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 18:50

  Drivers are assigned cars randomly when they arive at the track on Friday.

 

  Now we shall see who is really best.



#71 Norm

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 19:14

 

I agree with there being nothing wrong with the format and with the general notion that if you fix the big payment inequalities and implement rules that improve racing, the rest should take care of itself.
 
I was looking at this more from a perspective of fine tuning something that has already improved, not from an "improve the show" mentality. If you take a look at the changes I propose, most would aim to eliminate the fake aspects that have been implemented to supposedly improve (randomize really) the show.

 

I was speaking more to Hamilton's suggestions than yours. I should have clarified that.

#72 THEWALL

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 00:30

   

I was speaking more to Hamilton's suggestions than yours. I should have clarified that.

No worries, I got that, and I agree...



#73 tmekt

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 01:22

 
Not necessarily. The mandatory use of compounds was introduced to try to make things more random, in other words, to artificially influence the race by having teams use compounds that don't favor them, their drivers or their strategy.  If you eliminate the mandatory use, drivers will choose the compounds that are best for their cars, driving styles and strategies, making the somewhat fake effect you are seeing in these last races, real. 

Yeah, it has lead to certain artificialness but I think that's more a by-product of the limitation of the choice (meaning that there was only two compounds that you can pick from). Allowing them to choose a third compound has seemed to work pretty good this year. More real variation in strategies all the while not seeming like it's artificially added on top of everything.

 

A good compromise in my opinion. Just seems to me that getting rid of the rule would only make it worse. What creates the problem with artificiality is more the fact that they can't push the tires, which is certainly fixable on the tire maker side.

 

 

 

The idea with all of these is allowing drivers and equipment to be at their best: with fuel, tyres, engines, gearboxes, etc. Because racing is not a car that is conserving tyres, engine, gearbox or fuel less, pass a car that is conserving more; it's two drivers with their cars in as optimal state as possible and with as little difference as possible, giving it their 100% to see who is more talented. 

The conserving is becoming less and less of an issue. The engineers are equally integral part of the sport and the challenge in this is what distinguishes F1 from other racing series. Of course, they are conserving more now than in the past but I think the problem has been exaggerated a bit in the recent years (but as I said it's slowly fixing itself).

 

The biggest factor here too is the tires, you can conserve your engine by turning a knob and still push but with the tires you can't. 



#74 TF110

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 01:23

A driver should stick to driving, period. Or, alternatively, hip-hop.


Or cycling like Alonso and Webber, because potentially breaking a bone is a lot better option than making music you grew up with. /s

#75 tmekt

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 01:34

Or cycling like Alonso and Webber, because potentially breaking a bone is a lot better option than making music you grew up with. /s

Rather their bones than my ears.



#76 TF110

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 02:00

Rather their bones than my ears.


Same can be said of your choice of music, whatever it may be. No one forces you to sit through a Lewis Hamilton rap session at f1 races, do they?

#77 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 02:02

Rather their bones than my ears.

You read with your ears, that's some trick lol.



#78 tmekt

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 02:53

No one forces you to sit through a Lewis Hamilton rap session at f1 races, do they?

You never know what they will think up trying to spice up the show.



#79 Myrvold

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 04:34

Except that he said the same last year while leading the championship. Any explanation for that?

But there isn't amything about experimenting in the current season there, when it is not planned before the season to test out different things.

 

A small, but certainly important difference there.



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#80 baddog

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 05:59

Except that he said the same last year while leading the championship. Any explanation for that?

 

Yes, he said he wanted experimentation. This year he wants it in-season, to treat this season as a throwaway testbed. to 'use this year as an opportunity to come up with some ideas and test some things '

 

Any explanation as to why he might feel that shaking things up in season might be a good idea THIS year?



#81 Makarias

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 13:00

Driver Rotation



#82 pdac

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 14:26

Driver Rotation

 

Yes!

 

No driver can compete in F1 for more than 2 consecutive seasons and they have to take 3 seasons out before they can return.



#83 THEWALL

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 16:23

Yeah, it has lead to certain artificialness but I think that's more a by-product of the limitation of the choice (meaning that there was only two compounds that you can pick from). Allowing them to choose a third compound has seemed to work pretty good this year. More real variation in strategies all the while not seeming like it's artificially added on top of everything.
 
A good compromise in my opinion. Just seems to me that getting rid of the rule would only make it worse. What creates the problem with artificiality is more the fact that they can't push the tires, which is certainly fixable on the tire maker side.


 As long as it's mandatory it goes against the spirit of racing: it's bureaucracy or power-playing or just plain stupidity trying to influence something natural and logical. Getting rid of the rule will allow all car-driver combos to be optimized and, therefore, the potential for good racing increases. The issue with the drivers not being able to push the tyres is huge so that should be added to the list of course.
 
 

The conserving is becoming less and less of an issue. The engineers are equally integral part of the sport and the challenge in this is what distinguishes F1 from other racing series. Of course, they are conserving more now than in the past but I think the problem has been exaggerated a bit in the recent years (but as I said it's slowly fixing itself).
 
The biggest factor here too is the tires, you can conserve your engine by turning a knob and still push but with the tires you can't.

 Let's ask the drivers if they feel they are able to push as much as they'd want to or even comparatively with pre 2014 seasons. Yes, the racing has improved these last three races but let's not be fooled by it, the whole conservation paradigm goes against everything an auto race is supposed to be.