362 replies to this topic

[Marklar]

What should we expect from this one? Kvyat's career at Red Bull should be over, even if he beats Sainz. Maybe it can boost Sainz' career if he beats Kvyat? Will be interesting in any case......

[RPM40]

Daniil should perform at a much higher level than Carlos. But it will be curious to see how his motivation goes after being demoted mid season. Will he have the same fire for the fight? 

[v@sh]

It could be the career end for either of them (within the RBR pool of drivers).

 

I think if Sainz does not beat Kvyat, then he will be the next one on the back burner to go in the RBR train. Why would RBR want to promote a driver who cannot beat a driver they promoted in the first place and then got dropped?

Edited by v@sh, 05 May 2016 - 08:08.

[SB]

Kvyat could be the little bit quicker of two but I guess Sainz is the one making less mistakes ....

[sopa]

Well....

 

These swap news are completely out of the blue, but it gives Red Bull a good opportunity for comparison. Not many doubt Ricciardo is indeed more talented than Kvyat... and Verstappen more talented than Sainz... But what about DR v MV or DK v CS?

 

Battle between Kvyat and Sainz will be nothing less than audition for the 2017 Toro Rosso seat. Winner keeps it, loser will vacate the seat to Gasly (or some other rookie). Unless one of Ricciardo or Verstappen moves to Ferrari/Mercedes, which means the winner would get promotion to RBR...

Edited by sopa, 05 May 2016 - 08:11.

[RPM40]

It could be the career end for either of them (within the RBR pool of drivers).

 

I think if Sainz does not beat Kvyat, then he will be the next one on the back burner to go in the RBR train. Why would RBR want to promote a driver who cannot beat a driver they promoted in the first place and then got dropped?

 

Vergne, Kvyat.

Edited by RPM40, 05 May 2016 - 08:13.

[icecream]

 

Battle between Kvyat and Sainz will be nothing less than audition for the 2017 Toro Rosso seat. Winner keeps it, loser will vacate the seat to Gasly (or some other rookie). Unless one of Ricciardo or Verstappen moves to Ferrari/Mercedes, which means the winner would get promotion to RBR...

 

Won't be surprised if they both get dropped at the end of the season. Who knows, perhaps with the musical chairs now in motion, they mightn't even see the season out. 

[Nemo1965]

What should we expect from this one? Kvyat's career at Red Bull should be over, even if he beats Sainz. Maybe it can boost Sainz' career if he beats Kvyat? Will be interesting in any case......

[sopa]

What should we expect from this one? Kvyat's career at Red Bull should be over, even if he beats Sainz. 

 

Funny thing is that Kvyat's career in RBR may not be completely over, if he beats Sainz, beats the other Red Bull rookie next year, and then Ricciardo/Verstappen moves on.

 

Yeah, Dr Marko and RB have made a harsh move on Kvyat... but the thing is that these guys and especially Dr Marko are very pragmatical. If one of the golden boys leaves the RB team and Kvyat is the next best option on the market, they'd take him back. In F1 there is no "long-term hate" - in the end it boils down to performance.

[A3]

They were battling each other through different series, very curious to see how this pans out.

[jcbc3]

I could imagine Franz Tost is is pissed.

[Kao18]

Will be interesting to see how these two get along knowing that who loses the battle is probably out of F1.

 

But oh boy, what if they qualify ahead of the Red Bulls in Barcelona. Not entirely impossible, TR did so last year. 

[dangk]

Yeah Kvyat is gonna be happy ending the season with DEMOTED status. And be swarmed with interviewers at next race. Massive respect if Kvyat can hold his own and end the season to prove he's F1 worthy. I just fear for mental breakdowns.

Edited by dangk, 05 May 2016 - 09:11.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Sainz is more talented than Kvyat, also swapping cars during a season hasn't paid off in recent years. I expect Sainz to beat him with ease. If he doesn't, Sainz' F1 career doesn't hold much future either.

[v@sh]

Vergne, Kvyat.

 

Vergne scored the more points yes but Kvyat had far more the greater potential out of the two. Vergne was never going to promoted to RBR against Ricciardo, he had a horrible H2H qualifying record against Ricciardo (similar to what we are seeing now this season between DR and DK) and they already have all the data between JEV and DR to compare which was an easy decision. Hence why DR got the RBR test in the first place.

 

DK in 2014 had the higher raw speed ceiling, the only problem was that his race performances weren't as consistent as JEV but as a young guy you can fix that. You can't fix raw speed/talent where you are slow. My analogy would be I'd rather have a quick unreliable car for the start of a season rather than a slow but reliable car that just finishes points. It's easier to fix the reliability issue than it is to gain more speed through development.

 

If Sainz shows a similar compared to DK then it is still possible, on the assumption that there would be a seat available at RBR in the first place...

Edited by v@sh, 05 May 2016 - 09:21.

[Radion]

great opportunity for sainz. If he beats kvyat the same way DR did, his chances certainly will increase for a rbr drive in 2017.

[Xentas]

Carlos is more consistent, his luck has not been as good as Max has had but he is almost as good as Max, Danil on the other hand needs to dial out the erratic driving to see what he has. There is no denying that Danil has talent and the last thing Formula One needs is another "Crashtor", so once Danil has gotten rid of that erratic approach, i think he could match Carlos and it is a matter of showing what Danil has now. I can see Carlos beating Danil for some of this season until Danil becomes comfortable with Toro Rosso and can work with Carlos.

 

Is Danil's Red Bull career over? That would depend on Danil but it looks that way, if Max has a contract for the main team next season but Danil shows he can still cut it in the main team, he could still be switched back around to finish out the season. After this he could be thrown out on the pavement to find his own way while another hot shot makes their way up as there is plenty of talent out there in the Red Bull driver academy.

[RiccardoPatrese]

Carlos is more consistent, his luck has not been as good as Max has had but he is almost as good as Max.

Really? Both had their share of bad luck but Max was far more consistent then Carlos.

[noikeee]

This is actually part 4 of this battle, as this is the 4th different season in the 5th different series (they did 2 different championships together in 2011) they get paired off as team-mates. Must be some sort of world record, and it's a perfect case study for showing how driver performances fluctuate over the years and over different circumstances - something we pretty much never get to compare. So whilst I think this is a ridiculous decision, it does make for a very interesting team-mate battle.

 

2010 - Formula BMW Europe

4th. Carlos Sainz Jr (Eurointernational) - 225 points

10th. Daniil Kvyat (Eurointernational) - 138 points

 

2011 - Formula Renault 2.0 NEC

1st. Carlos Sainz Jr (Koiranen Bros. Motorsport) - 489 points

2nd. Daniil Kvyat (Koiranen Bros. Motorsport) - 441 points

 

2011 - Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup

2nd. Carlos Sainz Jr (Koiranen Bros. Motorsport) - 200 points

3rd. Daniil Kvyat (Koiranen Bros. Motorsport) - 155 points

 

2013 - GP3 Series

1st. Daniil Kvyat (MW Arden) - 168 points

10th. Carlos Sainz Jr (MW Arden) - 66 points

 

So Carlos has won most of the time, but Dannil was getting closer and then suddenly clearly outscored him in 2013. With his pride now hurt, will he have the motivation to repeat this? I have no idea.

[Kev00]

Sainz is pretty secure. He is in a similar position to Kvyat was against Vergne. Even if Sainz loses he will be retained. I just hope Kvyat keeps his head straight and earns himself another drive.

[Yamamoto]

Sainz should have the edge early on. If not then either he's rubbish or the cars are very easy to adapt to. I like to think Kvyat will react well to this but there are so many potential effects on his psyche. I think he'll come out fighting, but that could manifest itself in great performances, or alternatively in mistakes from trying too hard.

[Xentas]

Really? Both had their share of bad luck but Max was far more consistent then Carlos.

 

2015 results:

 

12 Max Verstappen Ret 7 17 Ret 11 Ret 15 8 Ret 4 8 12 8 9 10 4 9 9 16 49

 

15 Carlos Sainz, Jr. 9 8 13 Ret 9 10 12 Ret Ret Ret Ret 11 9 10 Ret 7 13 Ret 11 18

 

results alone does not prove that Carlos was slower or less consistent.

Edited by Xentas, 05 May 2016 - 09:51.

[RiccardoPatrese]

2015 results:

12 Max Verstappen Ret 7 17 Ret 11 Ret 15 8 Ret 4 8 12 8 9 10 4 9 9 16 49

15 Carlos Sainz, Jr. 9 8 13 Ret 9 10 12 Ret Ret Ret Ret 11 9 10 Ret 7 13 Ret 11 18

results alone does not prove that Carlos was slower or less consistent.

Look at the difference in points (I know Carlos lost a lot of points due to technical failures but so did Max in AUS, CHI and Monaco where the team ****ed up his pits stop) and the qualifying battle in the second half of the season.

Also see the first 4 races of this season, Max would be even further ahead in points if his engine wouldn't have failed last weekend.

 

Edited by SophieB, 05 May 2016 - 10:16.

[SophieB]

Again, this is showing what happens when there's not the driving to actually discuss yet. Past driving provides context but please make a conscious effort not to bring Max Verstappen into this new thread needlessly - the focus should be on the current driving pair, not rehashing old arguments.

 

I will open this ahead of FP1.

[SophieB]

Oh dear! I had to have my memory jogged about this. Very sorry, folks.

[FullOppositeLock]

Very, very early days, but looks like Kvyat is struggling to adap to his new surroundings more than Verstappen so far today.

[RPM40]

Very, very early days, but looks like Kvyat is struggling to adap to his new surroundings more than Verstappen so far today.

The car looks pretty reasonable, short of it being a new car of course

Edited by RPM40, 13 May 2016 - 13:22.

[goingthedistance]

Kvyat has never seemed good at jumping in a car and being super quick straight away.

[RPM40]

Kvyat has never seemed good at jumping in a car and being super quick straight away.

That's a very good point. He seems one of the slowest adaptors

[Jimisgod]

Sainz looks pretty strong today.

[BCM]

The STR was good in quali here last year.

 

Wasn't that flash in the race though.

[Marklar]

I guess that Kvyat tested the Toro Rosso for the first time in the simulator last week (probably Verstappen tested the Red Bull more often before). However, the gap is a bit to big, though he seems to have generally issues to adapt fast.

Edited by Marklar, 13 May 2016 - 14:24.

[messy]

Kvyat needs time now to adapt. The guy has been put through the mill over the last couple of weeks. I think he'll assert himself over Sainz in time. If he doesn't then it's really all over for him. 

[FullOppositeLock]

Early days to be jumping to conclusions, but if the situation was reversed with Max being so far off the pace to his team mate and Kvyat close to his I would be worried for the former, so as it is this has got to worry Kvyat. Hopefully he can turn it around.

[Kao18]

Remember that this was one of Sainz' strongest tracks last year, if not the strongest one. He qualified 5th. here and finished the race ahead of Kvyat and Verstappen. Something he didn't do that often in any of the other races. I think his next best qualifying position for instance was 8th. Barcelona clearly gives Sainz a little bit extra.

 

So with Kvyat in the TR for the first time w/o any testing it is more than logical that he was going to be trailing a bit here. I think the gap makes perfect sense. Lets give him a bit more time than RB did.

[Ivanhoe]

Sainz looks pretty strong today.

He mostly does with his flying laps in FP and Q and he was very good in the race here last year. Also this circuit suits the STR very good they were quite fast here during winter testing

Edited by Ivanhoe, 13 May 2016 - 15:27.

[shurajan]

Ben Anderson commented at some point today that swap is much tougher gig for Kvyat as he should adapt to the less capable car that has more limitations i.e. less capable in coners. Addtionally Red Bull as a big team has better idea about initial settings for a driver.  This allows the to start Fridays quicker.

[zanquis]

I think this track is not fair to compare Kvyat, he needs to adjust to the car, taking a step back is arguably harder more difficult than to take a step forward.

On top of that this is the one track where Sainz really rocks, it was imho by far his best track last year. 

[WelshSwan]

After seeing him in the press conference yesterday and hearing the emotion in his voice I have no doubt that this will be his toughest weekend so I'm prepared to cut him some slack. I think it's probably much easier to adapt to a better car than it is coming in and adapting to a car which isn't as good, not to mention his confidence has probably taken a huge knock so maybe he will be taking it relatively 'easy' this weekend to not make any mistakes and compound his issues if you see what I mean? I'm not saying he is not going to 'race' as such, I just get the feeling that is important for him to have a clean weekend even if that means he doesn't outscore Sainz.

[Kev00]

I know it's harsh on Kvyat but Sainz really has to pounce now to prove himself. If Sainz can keep on top in the next few rounds then it could hurt Kvyat even more and put more pressure on him, and give some momentum to Sainz. Verstappen getting promoted so soon could actually work out really well for Sainz, especially if Verstappen goes well against Ricciardo.

[WelshSwan]

I know it's harsh on Kvyat but Sainz really has to pounce now to prove himself. If Sainz can keep on top in the next few rounds then it could hurt Kvyat even more and put more pressure on him, and give some momentum to Sainz. Verstappen getting promoted so soon could actually work out really well for Sainz, especially if Verstappen goes well against Ricciardo.

 

It does sound harsh but you're right. Sainz knows that he has to take advantage whilst Daniil's confidence is down and I'd imagine that at the moment Kvyat is really having a rough time. Sainz needs to take advantage of this as much as he can, just as Daniil would if the situation were reversed. I'd expect Kvyat to be more cautious this weekend, if he has another accident that's only going to add to the pressure that's already on his shoulders so I would be very surprised if Kvyat came out on top between the two of them this weekend.

[RPM40]

I still think Kvyat didn't end up with too bad of a situation here. He was out at the end of the year anyway, maybe at the end of the year he'd be completely out. He now has his chance to prove himself against a (maybe weaker) new team mate and show he is worth of an F1 drive. Be that with Red Bull or another team.

 

His FP performance was better than the headline numbers showed anyway, he didn't get a clear lap in on his fast run and his race pace was fine. 

[ferkan]

I will jump to conclusion. Judging by Max's speed in FPs on his first laps, and Sainz quali speed in comparison I think Kvyat will have VERY tough job staying inside 2 tenths of Sainz.

If anything, Sainz is as fast as Max on single lap runs.

[balage06]

I think Sainz's biggest problem is his relatively poor racecraft. I've been following his career since the F3 days and he is always quick, but not a really good racer imho.

[FullOppositeLock]

Kvyat complained about being unable to warm the tires here: http://www.motorspor...tential-736175/

Didn't he have similar problems in Melbourne and Bahrain qualification in the Red Bull?

[Itsme]

Kvyat complained about being unable to warm the tires here: http://www.motorspor...tential-736175/

Didn't he have similar problems in Melbourne and Bahrain qualification in the Red Bull?

I don't believe he is complaining here just stating his facts: 1 car did not warm his tyres the other did.

 

I presume it was testing what is better for the speed of a qualifying lap. 

 

This year he was always .4 off DR so it will be a wonder if he beats CS the coming 3 races in qualifying. 

[jjcale]

I think Sainz's biggest problem is his relatively poor racecraft. I've been following his career since the F3 days and he is always quick, but not a really good racer imho.

 

DK is the same ....

[Kev00]

DK is the same ....

Kvyat's racecraft was certainly better than Sainz when they raced together in GP3. And in F1 I think Kvyat's racecraft has been ok. I wouldn't say say he lacks racecraft, just lacks a bit of pace.

[ckolcz]

DK in front in FP3. Let's see if he can keep it up in quali.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Good start for Carlos in this battle, let's see if he finishes ahead in the race itself