51 replies to this topic

[mariner]

This is actually more related to the curent Uk club racing but I though I would share it here, Its not a "the good old days were better " moan either BTW.

 

Talking to an official of a UK racing club I belong to I was initially amazed when he said the circuit owners are not really interested in getting spectators to amateur club events. The club is a successful one and membership and  total race entries are rising. It runs about 25 race days a year and it rents the tracks for the day for basically a fixed price.

 

The club then chooses its race series and collects entry fees which have to cover the track rental and overheads. No spectator ticket revenue goes to the club, the circuit owners keep all of it. So the club has no great incentive to market its racing to non club fans but apparently the circuit owners are unwilling to spend marketing effort or money to get gate spectators either.

 

The basic reason is the very small crowds at club racing. Based on programme sales it is quite normal for only 400 or so  paying spectators to turn up.

 

So its not just F1 which doesn’t seem to need actual spectators, the UK club system doesn’t need (or maybe want) them either.

 

So the old Brooklands adage of “the right crowd and no crowding" seems to be alive in 2016!

 

As the guy said BRISCA stock car racing has an entirely different model with good paying crowds and much lower entrant fees.

 

It sort of reminds me of US racing where SCCA sporty car events never seemed to chase spectators but dozens of Sprint/dirt etc races are run every weekend with good sized and keen fans even in some pretty low income rural areas.

Edited by mariner, 05 May 2016 - 11:05.

[ErleMin]

This is an interesting topic and I don't mean to hijack it but I've always wanted to know what happened to (and when) start money in races in Europe. I read about them in the '60s and the exploits of those who depended upon them but by the time I started twenty years later there was no such thing. It may be that there was such a thing but I was at club level to which it didn't apply or it could be that the dreaded "sponsorship" concept took over so drivers were tasked with getting their own income rather than relying on those who ran the races.

[Stephen W]

The whole idea of race tracks publicising events is old hat. Sure the events are on the website but there is precious little else.

 

Personally I can't understand why the venues still charge for admission to 'club meetings' as the cost of having people on the gate taking the cash plus security implications associated with the task must surely make it an entry in the loss column.

 

The best way to bring in revenue would be to have free entry but charge more for the programme which could be sold at a few well signposted points around the venue.

 

At basic club level the cost of hiring some of the race circuits is prohibitive for some types of motor sport (e.g. sprinting). Plus the venues have not approached the Event Planning Permissions side of things that would allow more such events to happen.

[foxyracer]

This is actually more related to the curent Uk club racing but I though I would share it here, Its not a "the good old days were better " moan either BTW.

 

Talking to an official of a UK racing club I belong to I was initially amazed when he said the circuit owners are not really interested in getting spectators to amateur club events. The club is a successful one and membership and  total race entries are rising. It runs about 25 race days a year and it rents the tracks for the day for basically a fixed price.

 

The club then chooses its race series and collects entry fees which have to cover the track rental and overheads. No spectator ticket revenue goes to the club, the circuit owners keep all of it. So the club has no great incentive to market its racing to non club fans but apparently the circuit owners are unwilling to spend marketing effort or money to get gate spectators either.

 

The basic reason is the very small crowds at club racing. Based on programme sales it is quite normal for only 400 or so  paying spectators to turn up.

 

So its not just F1 which doesn’t seem to need actual spectators, the UK club system doesn’t need (or maybe want) them either.

 

So the old Brooklands adage of “the right crowd and no crowding" seems to be alive in 2016!

 

As the guy said BRISCA stock car racing has an entirely different model with good paying crowds and much lower entrant fees.

 

It sort of reminds me of US racing where SCCA sporty car events never seemed to chase spectators but dozens of Sprint/dirt etc races are run every weekend with good sized and keen fans even in some pretty low income rural areas.

You are right.  At some meetings it's difficult to determine who are the spectators and who are there with competitors.  It's a bit "Catch 22" in that without promotion, no casual spectator is even going to know there's a meeting taking place but with very small crowds the clubs and circuits might easily assume there's no point in incurring propotional costs.

 

I think there are a number of reasons for decline since the 60s and 70s.

• Silencing of most categories has made motor racing less exciting.
• There are fewer "headline" categories like F.3, F.Atlantic, F.5000 where the championships meant something and were contested by aspiring young drivers.  There is no longer a "feature race" of the day.
• Most circuits have moved spectators back "out of harms way" and behind debris fencing so you no longer feel part of the action.
• Excessive use of safety cars and red flags has made some meetings a poor "show".
• There are many more attractions on Sundays - shops are open, other sports such as football and cricket are played and there are many other places to go.  More people work on Sundays than in the past.
• The demise of Formula 1 has had a knock-on effect in club racing.
• At circuits with pit garages, many of the cars are hidden from the view of spectators.
• Two-day meetings don't work for spectators, if they involve an overnight stay it gets too expensive.

The only positives are that attending club meetings is still relatively inexpensive and you no longer have to buy a separate paddock pass.

 

The loss of spectator revenue means that the competitors are paying the full cost of their racing.  That has pushed entry fees up and in some cases is leading to small grids and amalgamated races.

 

I do worry about the future.

[Sharman]

Foxyracer

From an old stager's point of view to the above can be added too many one make races. I cannot be enthused by motorised roller skates which only differ in colour and sign writing.

[Allan Lupton]

Foxyracer

From an old stager's point of view to the above can be added too many one make races. I cannot be enthused by motorised roller skates which only differ in colour and sign writing.

Yes, in its day the mixed grids of typical UK club races were attractive even to spectators.

We used to get good gates at The Eight Clubs Silverstone, but that tapered off in the 1990s to the point that we found we could save a lot on the insurance by running it as a "non-revenue meeting" letting spectators in free and making a bit of profit on programme sales.

I wondered if that was still the case, but the Blue Book only shows one set of insurance rates with no sign of the non-revenue option.

[Dipster]

In my opinion oval track racing, preferably at night, is much more appealing to spectators than circuits. Add to that the magic of reverse grids (the best starting at the back) and you have real excitement. When I think of F1 where the leader invariably  roars off in the lead then "just" (I know, it`s not that easy.....) sits there and I see no excitement at all.

 

So why would many people stump up to go, ergo why should organisers or owners bother to chase so few punters?

Edited by Dipster, 05 May 2016 - 17:13.

[mariner]

I agree with a lot of the above comments. For better or worse one make series have grown and grown and the modern series don't seem to have the magic chaos of a Mini race of old.

 

From the Club's point of view one make series work in keeping costs down for competitors while providing close racingand big grids for income.

 

The bit I do struggle with is how stock cars in the UK, and sprint/dirt/modifieds in the USA etc. can get enough spectators  to have low entry costs for the racers. If I had to make a guess based on appearances the average income for those spectators is less than club racing so I dont think it's ticket prices that keeps people away.

 

I do personaly find Brands Hatch a much better spectator proposition than Silverstone for any kind of racing so I mustn't paint with too broad a brush I

[F1matt]

Just out of interest does this vary from circuit to circuit or is it the general rule in the UK now?  My local circuit is Croft and they are now hampered by local residents and the dreaded noise tests and are limited to how many days they can run and at what decibels, their two big meetings, the BTCC and the nostalgia meeting are very well attended and also well promoted, chuck in an averagely attended rallycross meeting and the rest of the meetings requires the average local spectator to go and dig the details out himself.

[Sharman]

I had used to enjoy the old Silverstone even though it usually pissed down and blew a gale, ditto Snet but now old airfield circuits especially tarted up as the 'stones has been leave me even colder than I was d'antan.

[Doug Nye]

Back in the mid-'60s I worked occasionally at weekends as press officer at Brands Hatch.  My recollection is that some weekends there saw a club race meeting on the Saturday, followed by another - different club - on the Sunday. I seldom saw any of those meetings without spectator vehicles filling much of the South Bank's slopes and - again as I recall - crowds of 7,000-10,000 were quite commonplace.  But, especially on Sundays then, there were few rival attractions - and nipping down the 'Atch was a pretty good day out for many south-east Londoners.  We had few grandstands then to look bad, yawning empty, on TV - but the spectator areas were always pretty well populated.  This is in stark contrast to many recent Silverstone meetings - for example - in which the deserted(and vast)  GP grandstands simply shout indifference and most spectators encountered seem to be blood relations of the competitors...

 

DCN 

[racinggeek]

 

 

It sort of reminds me of US racing where SCCA sporty car events never seemed to chase spectators but dozens of Sprint/dirt etc races are run every weekend with good sized and keen fans even in some pretty low income rural areas.

 

When the SCCA Nat'l. Championship Runoffs came to Road America from 2009-13, it got a little publicity in the track's general region of eastern Wisconsin, USA (a decent amount of it coming from me pimping it like mad on my racing blog, but there were a few newspaper ads and it was written up in a couple local papers). Pointed out that it had 24-28 classes of sports, open-wheel, GT, production cars, national titles were on the line, local drivers had their shot at glory, etc. But I was there every day, every year except 2010, and attendance was minimal at best. I was told that the track wasn't really looking for spectators, that the track did well on it via other avenues (I assume track and paddock rentals, although I don't know for sure). 

[pete53]

Back in the mid-'60s I worked occasionally at weekends as press officer at Brands Hatch.  My recollection is that some weekends there saw a club race meeting on the Saturday, followed by another - different club - on the Sunday. I seldom saw any of those meetings without spectator vehicles filling much of the South Bank's slopes and - again as I recall - crowds of 7,000-10,000 were quite commonplace.  But, especially on Sundays then, there were few rival attractions - and nipping down the 'Atch was a pretty good day out for many south-east Londoners.  We had few grandstands then to look bad, yawning empty, on TV - but the spectator areas were always pretty well populated.  This is in stark contrast to many recent Silverstone meetings - for example - in which the deserted(and vast)  GP grandstands simply shout indifference and most spectators encountered seem to be blood relations of the competitors...

 

DCN 

And some of those bank holiday meetings at Brands - Easter Monday and Whit Sunday - used to pull in 20,000 or so. I also remember the January meeting in 1965, which was a re-scheduling of the cancelled Boxing Day event, pulling in ( according to the organisers) some 30,000 people. And this for what was really just a club meeting.

 

One thing is for sure though - no crowd no atmosphere.

[Lee Nicolle]

You are right.  At some meetings it's difficult to determine who are the spectators and who are there with competitors.  It's a bit "Catch 22" in that without promotion, no casual spectator is even going to know there's a meeting taking place but with very small crowds the clubs and circuits might easily assume there's no point in incurring propotional costs.

 

I think there are a number of reasons for decline since the 60s and 70s.

• Silencing of most categories has made motor racing less exciting.
• There are fewer "headline" categories like F.3, F.Atlantic, F.5000 where the championships meant something and were contested by aspiring young drivers.  There is no longer a "feature race" of the day.
• Most circuits have moved spectators back "out of harms way" and behind debris fencing so you no longer feel part of the action.
• Excessive use of safety cars and red flags has made some meetings a poor "show".
• There are many more attractions on Sundays - shops are open, other sports such as football and cricket are played and there are many other places to go.  More people work on Sundays than in the past.
• The demise of Formula 1 has had a knock-on effect in club racing.
• At circuits with pit garages, many of the cars are hidden from the view of spectators.
• Two-day meetings don't work for spectators, if they involve an overnight stay it gets too expensive.

The only positives are that attending club meetings is still relatively inexpensive and you no longer have to buy a separate paddock pass.

 

The loss of spectator revenue means that the competitors are paying the full cost of their racing.  That has pushed entry fees up and in some cases is leading to small grids and amalgamated races.

 

I do worry about the future.

That is exactly the same as here in Oz. Racer pays. The circuit owners have forgotten how to promote. Though the comments about less exciting motorsport is 100% true here too. Swings and roundabouts, soon most motorsport will be gone apart from that 'propped up' at taxpayer expense often on street curcuits where you cannot actually see much as a spectator. And the supports A pay way too much in entry B too often have their events shortened or canceled for the hero events and or TV.

Even dirt oval is paid for at the 'back gate' instead of by spectators.

 

EDIT. As for F1 too Bernie spectators are pesky nuisances and get in the way!

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 06 May 2016 - 06:00.

[opplock]

I'm used to seeing small numbers of spectators at Brands Hatch clubbies. The clubs pay to hire the circuit so all costs are covered (they hope) by entry fees. I was amazed however to learn on a recent trip downunder that the 2016 New Zealand Grand Prix at Manfield attracted a "crowd" of 2,000.  

[Dipster]

I agree with a lot of the above comments. For better or worse one make series have grown and grown and the modern series don't seem to have the magic chaos of a Mini race of old.

 

From the Club's point of view one make series work in keeping costs down for competitors while providing close racingand big grids for income.

 

The bit I do struggle with is how stock cars in the UK, and sprint/dirt/modifieds in the USA etc. can get enough spectators  to have low entry costs for the racers. If I had to make a guess based on appearances the average income for those spectators is less than club racing so I dont think it's ticket prices that keeps people away.

 

I do personaly find Brands Hatch a much better spectator proposition than Silverstone for any kind of racing so I mustn't paint with too broad a brush I

I think the answer to your thoughts about spectator numbers on short ovals is excitement provided by reverse grids, noise, colourful characters, the fact that you can see the whole circuit and the idea that participation would not be beyond quite a few. 

 

I go to circuits principally to see the cars. I love the vehicles themselves.  I rarely actually watch the racing.

Edited by Dipster, 06 May 2016 - 09:28.

[kayemod]

I go to circuits principally to see the cars. I love the vehicles themselves.  I rarely actually watch the racing.

 

What a terrible admission, you should be banned from the forum immediately!

 

However, that's exactly how I feel, pleased to know that I'm not alone, or at least there are two of us. It's only really possible to follow a race on TV, very difficult from the trackside, even from somewhere with a good view, and I suspect that this is a large part of the reason for the popularity of short oval racing, and NASCAR etc in the US, spectators can easily follow all the action. As a child or young teenager, I used to go to Oulton or Aintree. When a typical club race started, we'd see half a dozen brightly coloured Chevron B8s or similar flash past. Occasionally the order changed, or one was missing, but crash, retirement, pit stop or whatever, we never really knew until it was over and we could hear the commentary again. We went to see and hear real racing cars driven fast, that was enough for us, and that's why today I'd rather attend the Festival at Goodwood than go to Silverstone for the GP, though I have done that as well in the past.

[Alan Cox]

Back in the mid-'60s I worked occasionally at weekends as press officer at Brands Hatch

 

DCN 

Ah, yes. the writing talent that emerged from the Brands press office over the years

[Doug Nye]

Well it taught me how to write an invoice for five quid... A real result in those days, I can assure you.  Five whole Pounds.  Dilly-ding, dilly-dong.  

 

DCN 

[john aston]

I to am local to Croft and to be frank the 'local opposition' issue can be a bit of a red herring . We enthusiasts tend to imagine the whole world is against us and whilst some vocal critics can make a lot of noise  the legal issue is essentially whether the circuit has the proper planning permission to do what it does. And given the  well publicised Mallory debacle it is clear that some circuits try to drive a coach and horses  through the law - with predictable results. At Croft the issue was a family fallout with breach of planning being used as the vehicle for complaint- and sadly the circuit lost.

 

But don't think somewhere like Croft isn't busy    - trackdays are a very big market and Croft runs a lot . including a number of 105db days .

 

Spectators don't go for lots of reasons but the average race meeting often doesn't deserve any. Because? Where to start -

 

 1 Rip off priced ,  uninformative and badly written programmes  which don't tell a newcomer anything remotely useful

2 Hopeless catering

3 Interminable delays between races

4 Daft deployment of safety car 

5 Thin grids, often as a result of competing championships (see Mazda MX5s for example)

6 One make spec formulae    

 

But it isn't all bad- TV featured stuff like BTCC gets huge crowds and is superbly run and entertaining  - I might not like the cars or the gimmicks (or some of the driving ) but it works . And Time Attack (sort of trackday/sprint hybrid) is hugely popular and especially with a  much younger and more ethnically diverse demographic . Twenty somethings love seeing hopped up 600bhp Evos and Imprezas and what a lovely change it is   for me for once not to be surrounded by people who look just like me (white , retired, fat grumpy ). Ditto drag racing - great spectacle and lots of young people .

 

Some circuits are doing better than  others , deservedly so. MSV has done a superb job on Oulton and Cadwell.with  helpful staff, clean toilets etc

 

And some series are great successes - we have the Northern Saloon and Sports series here and where else can you see a Seven battling with an Aussie V8 supercar. a Marcos, a world touring car Seat and a pensioned off DTM Renault 21?

 

Spectators are important - not financially perhaps but sponsors aren't over keen if there is nobody to watch  and , to be blunt , the minute my local circuit runs private meetings it can forget any public support from me .        

Edited by john aston, 07 May 2016 - 06:43.

[LotusElise]

I think the answer to your thoughts about spectator numbers on short ovals is excitement provided by reverse grids, noise, colourful characters, the fact that you can see the whole circuit and the idea that participation would not be beyond quite a few. 

 

I go to circuits principally to see the cars. I love the vehicles themselves.  I rarely actually watch the racing.

 

My earliest motorsport spectating experiences were stock car and banger meetings at Brafield. They still run, and get good crowds.

The promoters are not afraid of doing the odd crazy stunt, like combine harvester demolition derbies, to add some extra excitement to the championship series. The smallness of the circuit, and the fact the pits were just behind you, meant that the atmosphere was noisy and exciting. A greater number of short races were probably more appealing to the casual spectator - something that also works in speedway's favour, I think. Speedway is another interesting comparison. Its team structure means that it is easier to get "emotionally involved" with the results, and tension builds across the meeting.

[pacificquay]

Depends on the circuit. Knockhill pretty proactively promotes almost everything that happens at the track

[JacnGille]

Back in the mid-'60s I worked occasionally at weekends as press officer at Brands Hatch.

 

DCN 

I wonder if those papyrus scrolls will be discovered in a cave in a couple of thousand years????

[Adrian Beese]

Speed hill climb venues seem to have a different approach. Shelsley and Prescott attract healthy crowds by offering diverse fields, interesting off track entertainment (wall of death at Prescott last season was brilliant) and good catering. Informed commentary and an always interesting car park add to the occasion. Spitfire fly past at the Shelsley  classic meeting last season was fantastic. This year I will be introducing at least five complete first timers to motorsport at these two venues and I know they will love it.

[Charlieman]

Rich blokes are going to race up that narrow road in their £1 million Aston Martins and Bugattis, versus four hundred weight of old junk? You must be pulling my leg.

 

(Edit for clarification. Some people race for fun.)

Edited by Charlieman, 07 May 2016 - 22:59.

[Lee Nicolle]

I think the answer to your thoughts about spectator numbers on short ovals is excitement provided by reverse grids, noise, colourful characters, the fact that you can see the whole circuit and the idea that participation would not be beyond quite a few. 

 

I go to circuits principally to see the cars. I love the vehicles themselves.  I rarely actually watch the racing.

US crowds for Sprints these days are not that big, but they are there regularly. Just look at You Tube. Big shows such as Knoxville have very large lockout shows with people from many parts of the world. As does the 'Classic' at Warnambool Victoria.

Personally I am over them, restart upon restart is so bloody annoying. The racing can be magic but these days more and more a high speed procession.

But many still go regularly

The advent of the choregraph car [safety?] has turned me off big time road racing as well.

I watched the 81 or 82 Bathurst race [or at least parts] recently on You Tube and while a safety car may have been required for KBs Channel 6 Chev and a couple of other incidents it was NOT happening for a broken down car on track edge it was a good race. Unlike the choreographed shite now.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 08 May 2016 - 02:26.

[GMACKIE]

I'm with you, Lee...'Safety' cars are a pain.

 

Charlie Smith knew I wouldn't hit his Mini - I was in VW, 57A.    1963 Armstrong 500.

 

Edited by GMACKIE, 08 May 2016 - 02:53.

[Lee Nicolle]

I'm with you, Lee...'Safety' cars are a pain.

 

Charlie Smith knew I wouldn't hit his Mini - I was in VW, 57A.    1963 Armstrong 500.

 

A new way to liven up V8 Supercars,, make the driver change the wheels from the one in the boot with factory tools.

They can do it from the safety of pit lane though.

The driving attire is a bit casual,, where is the white shirt and tie!

[LB]

Well it taught me how to write an invoice for five quid... A real result in those days, I can assure you.  Five whole Pounds.  Dilly-ding, dilly-dong.  

 

DCN 

 

Without being disrespectful (hopefully :S ) Was it a white fiver? because I've never even seen one of them! 

I'll echo that Knockhill is pretty well promoted every time I've been there I've been treated really well and had access beyond my dreams round F3 and British Sportscar paddocks with friendly and accessible people in teams that have shown me insight into what they do most are delighted that I'm interested. The guys at the clubbies are great, same with the hillclimbers at Doune. Thing is crowds outside the BTCC at Knockhill are generally pretty small and they can afford to do that. 

[mariner]

Maybe a key thing to get spectators coming back is " atmosphere". Shelshey Walsh has that in spades due to the beautiful location and the old buildings. I have recommended it to my family having visitors from the USA just because it’s so English. At the other end Sprint cars have atmosphere too. It’s the pace, the noise, the dust and even the appalling food stuff.  You know you have been to something visceral after a WoO race.

 

When we did club racing in the 70's we used to joke that Brands had a " gut" crowd but there was probably a bit of truth in the joke.

 

Certainly empty stands don’t help but I always recommend any “casual" new spectators to try the Birkett Trophy at Silverstone because with 300 drivers and 150 cars something is always happening. The handicapping used to be a big negative but now the club has genuine real time position, lap speed etc results on screens and direct to your smartphone worldwide.

 

I do think that suggests a way forward for clubs to do more self promotion if the circuits wont. Its bit of an aside but Peter Windsor came to talk to us and very ably demonstrated what skilled hands can do with just smartphone, HD video and fast editing. His candid piece of the drivers arriving by bike and limo at a GP was far more interesting than most Sky coverage and the world is now full of clever, younger people who can put hat kind of stuff up on line quickly. Maybe that’s the route for the clubs to get to a wider audience with the potential to even sell some ads as they go.

 

I’ve droned on a bit but one last thought. The music industry no longer has one Pop music and anybody can see/hear any band free via the net but the UK music festival scene has become huge with crowds from a few hundred to thousands. The bands help promote these via social media as that’s their only real income so while there may be many things to do on Sunday people still get in cars and go to festivals in big numbers.

Edited by mariner, 08 May 2016 - 10:36.

[chunder27]

It is an interesting approach. 

 

The obvious question to people running events is this.  If you don't want speccies there, make it free entry. 

 

Tracks won't want that as they will still have to pay for security, cleaners, toilets etc.  So there has to be a fee. But if the clubs don't want fans, let them pay for that. Series have bene pared down, but grids are decent. There has never been a better time to be a club racer, you get lots more track time and long races. Far better than 20 years ago, 20 mins practice, 1 race, home.

 

I went to Silverstone a couple of weeks ago, weather was lovely, two meetings on, one bikes, one cars. Two separate entry fees, how utterly pathetic. there were probably only a hundred people at the whole venue.

 

You totally cannot compare stock cars to normal racing. At the top levels, they pay a tiny entry fee and also get paid to race, and not small amounts you are talking 40 quid per meeting. There is travelling support that follows the series all over the country and they race every week. Promoters run the meeting but don't always own the tracks, it is a closed shop of about 7 of them, there are lots of tracks that can run stock cars but can't because of this closed shop.

[john aston]

Some of the problem is also that if you were a ..ahem..petrolhead (loathsome term )when I was a lad then inevitably you got involved in motor sport of  one form or another, whether as marshal , competitor or spectator. No motor stuff on TV but a  thriving and diverse motor sport scene. Not any more - today I went to a championship hillclimb meeting  and whilst the crowd was reasonable it wasn't huge and most of us were old farts . But I passed scores of cars - from Porsche to TVRs and lots of hot hatches all going to park in a field at a stately home in serried ranks , then take lots of pictures of cars like the one you drove there and then convoy home.

 

Now personally I'd rather have root canal work  but the appeal is undoubtedly there for many. So how many circuits do the same - you know, like the old Fordsport days? Hardly any - you get there , there is nothing to see or do between races and nothing for the kids to do apart from roll down grass banks.Encourage some owners clubs to come along and put on a display - just alow key thing , not the full Goodwood or Classic number  There is a huge amount organisers  can do to foster some involvement , some sense of belonging but apparently it's all too difficult  - or rather too easy to find lazy excuses not to entertain any form of change-and  yes. I have tried ......  I have a season ticket for one circuit- I suggested they might like to do something as bloody simple as email ticket holders with news of events and encourage those charged with writing programmes to inject a bit of fun , a bit of spark into them. No- I pay  to get badly written rubbish strewn with typos and - spare me - long extracts from the regs. Pitiful.           

[LotusElise]

John's point above explains the relative popularity of the Silverstone Classic. There's plenty of stuff put on for the in-between bits, which I think adds to the atmosphere. It doesn't need to be Status Quo live or a full funfair - something like the Wall of Death, a stunt show or even something like the record attempt at the Mini 50th Anniversary meeting at Silverstone.

 

Maybe someone should also do a bit of marketing research into how stock cars developed and retained such a loyal following. It's really quite impressive for something that gets little to no TV exposure and is really quite "niche".

[Doug Nye]

Without being disrespectful (hopefully :S ) Was it a white fiver? because I've never even seen one of them! 

 

Nope - and I quote - "In 1963 the series C note was released. Designed by Reynolds Stone it was the first £5 note to depict a portrait of a monarch (Queen Elizabeth II).  On the rear there was a full body depiction of Britannia  holding an olive branch with her famous shield and trident; she can be seen sitting next to a pile of coins. This bank-note continued using complex designs and drawings as a security measure against counterfeits."

 

DCN

[Dipster]

Out of interest how many UK members of this forum have been to see stock cars or hot rods (any promoter)? Which promoter was it? And what did those who did think of the spectacle compared to circuits?

Edited by Dipster, 09 May 2016 - 09:47.

[Stephen W]

Obviously "Charlieman" hasn't been to a hillclimb for several decades. For example at Harewood yesterday there was the latest two rounds of the British Hillclimb Championship. Entries ranged from Gould single seaters with ex-GP, Le Mans or Indy engines through the multiple racing classes mainly consisting of lightweight motorbike engined single seaters to heavily modified saloons and sports cars. There were support classes for the Pirelli Ferrari Championship (which featured the exotic end of the market but one has to remember all the Pranching Horses had to be driven to the venue so mods allowed are minimal), Westfields and a class for National B competitors.

 

All in all a thoroughly entertaining day with class records and many personal best times.

 

It did however attract less than 1000 spectators. Mind you with access to the paddock free at all hillclimbs, enthusiasts and their children can get up close and personal with the cars and drivers as the latter don't slink off to their motorhomes to hide. 

[mariner]

With respect to going UK Stockcar racing I used to go to Aldershot when I lived in the Thames Valley. Good racing, close up view , probably fairly safe due to low-ish speeds and a good " buzz" in the crowd. The catering and toilets were OK as I  recall and well beyond Castle Combe at the time.

 

Kings Lynn I didn't like so much, a bit dirty at the edges. My practical test of any track for spectating is " would my wife be Ok with the toilets"!  KL =no.

 

BTW Spedeworth's website is  clear, simple and very usable for would be spectators 

 

http://www.spedewort...?name=Aldershot

 

There is a  more Stockcar/ circuit racing cross-over than you might think. Peter Knight Engines specializes in US  V-8's and supplies many classic Ford 289's to Mustangs/Cobras etc. He learnt his V - 8 skils buidling his senior class stock cars.

 

A gentleman caled John Plant runs a vey impressive and powerful home built Allard replica in 750 events and he was long time stock car driver. He has lent me some very rare film of the stock racing at Brands and I would have to say they behaved better on track than some Brands Mini racers.

 

Even banger racing has its technology . Our plumber ran his son in karts until they couldn't match the mega-funding father types so switched to bangers. They spend the same long hours on preparation etc but they  get to race locally at an affordable price.

Edited by mariner, 09 May 2016 - 10:04.

[BRG]

My practical test of any track for spectating is " would my wife be Ok with the toilets"!  

 

Avoid Monza then.

 

As a youngster, I often went to Wimbledon of a Saturday evening.  I was a bit of a fan of Aubrey 'Foxy' Dance. Spedeworth put on a good show in those days.  Every now and then I see a car heading for Wimbledon on the back of a truck and think that I should really go along again.  

 

The short oval scene was, and I am sure still is, very much a working class sport.  A lot of the competitors work in the motor trade - garages or car breaking - and the crowd includes a lot of their mates. Given that being working class doesn't mean that you are necessarily skint, there are even some Rolex wearers, but don't tell Bernie!

Edited by BRG, 09 May 2016 - 16:30.

[kayemod]

 

My practical test of any track for spectating is " would my wife be Ok with the toilets"!  KL =no.

 

 

 

Never been to Monza, but if loos and catering standards are related and we're going all European on this thread, I'd definitely tell your wife to avoid Hockenheim. Going by the stuff I was served there a few years ago, if she'd eaten that, she'd definitely have been aquainting herself with the porcelain fairly shortly afterwards.

[TimRTC]

Santa Pod raceway is a circuit that does a lot of promotion outside the normal motorsports channels to get people to come along, they have big family events and lots of off-track entertainment, more than any other event I have been to.

 

Unfortunately I think club races are never going to attract big turnouts now. Motorsports fans can now watch racing from around the world every weekend and I'm sure many of them would rather sit at home and watch an F1, MotoGP, GT etc. race than go along to a random club event.

 

Never been to Monza, but if loos and catering standards are related and we're going all European on this thread, I'd definitely tell your wife to avoid Hockenheim. Going by the stuff I was served there a few years ago, if she'd eaten that, she'd definitely have been aquainting herself with the porcelain fairly shortly afterwards.

 

Should try the Norisring, proper food (real German Bratwurst) on proper ceramic plates and real beer in real (litre?) glasses, it was delightful.

 

 

This is in stark contrast to many recent Silverstone meetings - for example - in which the deserted(and vast)  GP grandstands simply shout indifference and most spectators encountered seem to be blood relations of the competitors...

 

DCN 

 

I think this is simply that Silverstone doesn't open most of their grandstands - even at the FIA WEC, half of them are closed up. I think this is for cost - they seem to need attendants in the stands during the racing now, and obviously need to clean them up afterwards. The WEC races are well attended, but watch on TV and they look empty as there are big empty stands.

 

Out of interest how many UK members of this forum have been to see stock cars or hot rods (any promoter)? Which promoter was it? And what did those who did think of the spectacle compared to circuits?

 

I've been to a couple of Startrax events in Manchester and Stoke and an event at Cowdenbeath, the spectacle was fun although I still havn't worked out exactly how it all worked (random starting positions; finals, grand finals, grand national etc.). There were good crowds and a lot of people who seemed to be veteran regulars.

[Stephen W]

As for loos to avoid I would put the French circuit at Dijon on top of my list.

[TimRTC]

 

The best way to bring in revenue would be to have free entry but charge more for the programme which could be sold at a few well signposted points around the venue.

 

Not sure that would work too well, motorsports fans collect programmes and they would come anyway, families and first time visitors probably won't have any interest in a £10 programme.

 

I don't think making an event free will necessarily attract (m)any more viewers, most club events are only £10 or so to get in and kids go free so hardly a major cost issue for anyone. I think the fact that circuits are generally out of the way and there is not a major interest in motorsports in the general public at the moment is a much bigger factor.

[2F-001]

As for loos to avoid I would put the French circuit at Dijon on top of my list.

Dijon was my first thought too; those traditional 'squat' facilities in the paddock are especially tricky in a racesuit...

(Great circuit though!)

[john aston]

Glad somebody mentioned drag racing - even my local strip, the York Raceway,   shows many more professional venues how it should be done.Family appeal and atmosphere, edible pies and peas and a brilliant , well informed  and very funny commentator. Action from 10am with only the shortest of breaks at lunch time and none of the yawningly tedious delays which beset so much club racing.

 

And of course a fantastic spectacle visually and aurally , even if I get the impression some motor sport folk regard it as a bit below stairs.Who cares- .it doesn't take itself too seriously and there is none of that self important nonsense of cars being boarded off so Joe Public can't see them except on track . And nothing in the sport rivals the sheer visceral spectacle of a top fueller or funny car. 

[F1matt]

Promotion for circuit owners and clubs has to be the way forward, free admission is utterly pointless if nobody knows about it, promote the event right and people will turn up, families are always looking for different things to do in the summer, as long as its not restricted to the millionaire corporate suits Bernie is trying to attract and the average family can park up, get in the track, have a bite to eat and enjoy the action without it costing them much more than a trip to the cinema they will be happy. In March i attended a "Big Breakfast" in Malton North Yorkshire organised free of charge by Specialist Cars of Malton, it was packed hundreds of people turned up to show off their prized cars and look at other peoples cars, people of all ages in different types of cars, the only action was a quick acceleration down a public road with the police watching to make sure nobody did anything silly, imagine something like this combined with a club meeting at a track?

[TimRTC]

To be fair, Donington Park does quite a bit of promo work in Derby for the bigger meetings - the truck racing in particular, they have paraded some trucks through the town in past years which gets good notice. I believe they have done similar for historics and GT meetings.

[Charlieman]

Obviously "Charlieman" hasn't been to a hillclimb for several decades.

 

Sorry, Stephen, that the irony in my post was lost. Thank you for your spirited promotion for modern hill climbs.

[foxyracer]

Back in the mid-'60s I worked occasionally at weekends as press officer at Brands Hatch.  My recollection is that some weekends there saw a club race meeting on the Saturday, followed by another - different club - on the Sunday. I seldom saw any of those meetings without spectator vehicles filling much of the South Bank's slopes and - again as I recall - crowds of 7,000-10,000 were quite commonplace.  But, especially on Sundays then, there were few rival attractions - and nipping down the 'Atch was a pretty good day out for many south-east Londoners.  We had few grandstands then to look bad, yawning empty, on TV - but the spectator areas were always pretty well populated.  This is in stark contrast to many recent Silverstone meetings - for example - in which the deserted(and vast)  GP grandstands simply shout indifference and most spectators encountered seem to be blood relations of the competitors...

 

DCN 

Even if there were enough spectators at a Silverstone clubbie to fill the grandstands they wouldn't be able to because they are invariably padlocked.  That leaves very little in the way of decent vantage points.  Silverstone is simply an F.1 stadium these days, nothing else seems to matter.

[chunder27]

Some very interesting views here about this issue.

 

It does seem that for the bigger venues such as Silverstone, they make no effort whatsoever to attract fans to club races. Surely locals should be offered free entry to compensate for the pain in the arse it must be living near a place that makes your commute and house impossible to get to 2 or 3 weekends a year?

 

I went to Brands Blancpain recently on the qually day and it was a lovely day, decent weather, crowd was perhaps a thousand or more.  Mainly to see the cars I expect not the racing or anything else. But for 15 quid you cant go wrong.

 

That is my beef with so called big events like the Classic, Goodwood, there are NO options to go and watch anything if all you want to see is the machines, such as a practice day or a qualifying day. Circuits running these events have now cottoned on obviously to the fact that if you have racing all days you can charge a huge amount more for entry, and all those extra penes pay for bands and other nonsense that some of us have no intention whatsoever of watching and would rather pay a smaller fee and be unable to watch, but as is the case with things like NEC show, SKY subs, they demand what you pay and you can take or leave. So I simply leave despite being a regular in the early years it has now become an event that for me is poor value.

 

Regarding stock cars, they have been around since the 50's over here. Nowhere near as many tracks as there used to be and still a bit of North/South divide in terms of promotors.  Most of the tracks are owned by a third party and the meetings run by a promoter so the venues are often a little poor as why would you invest large sums in the place when you don't own it. The racing is hard to grasp initially, but once you get used to it you will find more passing, more grudge matches, more rivalries than you will find in any other form of world motorsport, retribution is usually swift, hard and makes you wince. For the purist they will mock, shake their heads (they only turn left yawn), but for race fans who appreciate skill, bravery and balls there is nothing better regularly. 

 

Drag racing too gets a poor deal, most of the venues have embraced modern youth car culture massively more than any other type of motorsport with huge turnouts art weekly run what yer brung events and drifting arenas often doing just as well.

 

Places like Santa Pod seem more in touch with locals and what they want. Jet Cars, a permanent fairground, great selection of decently priced food and drink. A decent place to sit and watch or a grandstand that does not cost a fortune. Regular improvements. Free parking for ANY events.

 

I am not a regular, but have never been disappointed by any events there, and most of you likely naysayers can only dream of the crowds they get. Someone mentioned WEC at Silverstone, Santa Pod would batter that crowd 4 or 5 weekends a year. Why?  Coz they have nostalgia events, bank holiday events, VW events, Jap car events.  See the trend? Cover more bases and you WILL succeed.  Something most motorsport venues in this country are so woeful at I am amazed they are still running.

[john aston]

Chunder- don't tell anybody but if you turn up to Silverstone on the Thursday before the Classic it's testing day. It is not only free to get in but you can go where you want - my preferred location being the pit wall . I have been doing this for years and if asked by gate staff I just tell them I am setting up our Club stand or delivering some bits to a Formula Junior team - they wave me through even though I am driving a Caterham  which would struggle to accommodate more than a set of plugs. Park where you like but use commonsense;one year I  found myself parked behind the old pits next to Mike Walker(and what a lovely chap he was)