66 replies to this topic

[Lee Nicolle]

My brother rode IoM a couple of years ago on a hire bike. While he is not a competition rider he has been around bikes for 40 years and he says at 9/10ths it probably is ok but at 10/10ths yet alone more it is just so dangerous. And wet a no no!

A friends dad was killed there in the 50s and a sidecar racer I know was severely injured in the 70s.

[chunder27]

I have simply stated a case for he defence really.

 

In no way have I called into question anyones decisions or their right to choose.

 

I simply believe that the decision they make is sometimes ruled by the potential prize in money terms aswell as the winning. That carrot of a few more tens of thousands of pounds can push a man already on his limit slightly over it, on one of the most dangerous places on earth to do so.  Admirable yes, but entirely necessary and altogether reasonable? Of course not. When you consider the risks.

 

At an amateur level I see the TT as a challenge, something to conquer, your own personal goal be it a 110, 115 or 120 mph lap, a time, to complete the race whatever. The problem is, as amateurs these guys are not as fit, not as likely to have their bikes as well prepared and maybe not experienced enough to be out there.

 

I know this is picking faults at a very precious thing for some people, but every year, I have to sit here and read of another 2 or 3 fatalities. Be they legends or blokes next door. And I have had enough of it, that's all.

[Canuck]

Perhaps then it is because I haven't been clear. I don't care how he feels about it - likes it, hates it - no skin from me. He is absolutely entitled to feel however he wants, and is certainly entitled to his opinion.

My responses haven't been about his opinion (this sport is too dangerous) but about his conclusion (it shouldn't be permitted). If that hasn't been clear, that's on me.

[chunder27]

I think in the long run you have to weigh up what the risks are.

 

Think of numerous challenging events. Marathons, top end triathlons, mountaineering. In most of those the only limiting factor is yourself. Your fitness, your determination.

 

In mountaineering you have to factor in weather and a certain reliance in equipment.  In road racing, you have weather, changing track conditions, lapped riders, the machine which at an amateur level might still be fine but possibly not as well maintained as more factory level. And you have you the rider, same issues, fitness, determination.

 

There are few more demanding sporting exercises, especially ones that almost anyone can just crack on with and do at such a fierce venue.

 

Imagine climbing Everest as your first effort at mountaineering. That's what doing the TT as an amateur must be like.

Edited by chunder27, 09 January 2017 - 08:52.

[Greg Locock]

Bad example. You /might/ be able to get up Everest as a first mountaineering challenge... but that would be a silly and unusual and probably unsuccessful approach. Alternatively I could ride a bike around the TT course without ever having raced elsewhere. If I did, what would I prove?  Nothing beyond that I know how to ride a bike. If i rode within my limitations, I'd trundle round and yet you seem to think this some death defying feat. The fact is speed/competition is what makes it dangerous, whereas Everest will kill 1% of people who walk up to Base Camp, and a much larger proportion of those who go further. No competition, no speed requirement, just a fact of life.

Edited by Greg Locock, 09 January 2017 - 11:30.

[chunder27]

OK perhaps not the best example.

 

But your example is not much better, what on earth would be the point in riding around the TT course at such a sedate pace.  No-one really goes there to do that you can do that in your own time when the roads are open to the public. And I don't think you would be allowed to, not sure complete amateurs can take part in the TT, the Manx maybe?

 

If you are partaking in something like this, you want to do it well and competitively, but you make my point for me, there are very few sports and competitions you can do that put such a strain on the competitor.

 

The Dakar is on at the moment, and that is incredibly dangerous for the top paid riders who want to win. And also for the amateurs. But the goal for them is merely finishing invariably. So perhaps the Dakar on a bike is a decent comparison.

[Kelpiecross]

All of this talk about climbing Mt. Everest reminds me of a Goon Show episode from about 60 years ago - they were planning to climb Everest from the inside. Given quite a few billion dollars this could be quite possible now with current technology - a horizontal tunnel about a mile long then a vertical shaft (for a lift) of about 5 miles. Even I could get to the top of Everest then.

[MatsNorway]

But your example is not much better, what on earth would be the point in riding around the TT course at such a sedate pace.  No-one really goes there to do that you can do that in your own time when the roads are open to the public.

 

I would love to go around the TT in my tempo, not oh ****, oh ****, oh ****, tempo but a tempo i could handle. But here is the thing; for some racers. that is probably what they think they do. And as time goes on they crank it up because they feel comfortable with the increased speeds. It is entirely a matter of perspective.

 

Slight OT because i feel that would be more fun to talk about:

Some would never take their daily car to a trackday event. I did. and i went as fast as i dared after idk. 4 laps?

 

Now i did that in a shitbox with 78hp - 1000kg and winter tires. They said it was crazy dangerous..why? because you go slower around the turns? that made no sense to me.. i did not buy into that because all winter tires do is slow you down.. And i did fine. I was not scared of the tires or the speed, but the speed difference between me and the porsches. and much of that was from not knowing the track the first couple of laps. ( i even had a guy jump in the passenger and give me some pointers for the first two laps)  It is a matter of perception.

 

Is it any more dangerous than rental carts? nah.. depends on car and only slightly as you see more than you do on a rental indoor track. I would say risk of severe neck injury is higher in a rental cart if you get rear ended.. No neck support in those seats after all.

 

Ive done:

 

1. Worn out known brand winter tires in the front with new cheap tires in the back - Front: Nokian Hakkapelittas ("no" threads on the tires helps immensely") - Rear: GT radial Champiro winterpro

 

2. ive done good known brand all year tires, with good brand summer tires in the back - Front: Nokian i5 something - Rear: Continental Ecocontact 3

 

3. Shitty summer tires and worn but good brand summer tires - Front: Matador rerubberised summer tires - Rear: Continental Ecocontact 3

 

4. Old worn out Brand tires and good brand summer tires - Front: Kumho something - Rear: Continental Ecocontact 3

 

5. Other **** tires where tested but i had the previous tires so i chanced back when i went sideways going into the corners. (1 lap and straight in)

 

Allmost all bought for cheap on rim from craigslist (actually:ww. finn.no)

 

 

Did i learn alot about tires? oh yes. The matador tires probably had an early exit due to too high tire pressure and a warm day. They went conical and was no longer round. The brands took the same pressure fine tho. 2 bar when cold i believe. Remember i did not get the heat into the tire the same way others did. 5-7  laps at the most in one session. 2min+ laps

But you could feel the rear winter tires slowly get heat into the tire blocks. it got a bit more tail happy, felt like you could feel the rubber getting peeled off. But it was super predicable, It felt like i was throwing it around alot. Sadly i do not have that run on video.

 

This was also done different times of the year on different sizes. So the winter tires was early spring so the heat on the track was way less. Probably helping me out a big deal. The wider tires did reduce my top speed by 2-5km't i think... Could be the hot weather too?

 

"2 x What have you done to it?"

"Checked tire pressures and tightened wheel bolts"

 

Am i the goon? i would perhaps point at the porsche owners with unclear insurances on their cars..Some of them drive.. not so safe either..  my car then is allready turned to nails now.

Edited by MatsNorway, 10 January 2017 - 18:59.

[Bob Riebe]

The IOM road/track is dangerous.

In the past, and I have not seen anything on this for near a decade, they let the spectators on the road during the TT week.

One year in an article on the danger and deaths that occur during the TT, they also gave the number of people that had died when the track was open to the public.

I was amazed at the number as it rivaled the death rate for the race, at least at that time.

 

To say something should not be permitted because it makes one personally uncomfortable is a bit silly, but there are a lot of people, an increasing number in the U.S. in politics, that take this godwannabe attitude.

[chunder27]

There is an element of playing devils advocate for the sake of it, something I will always do in a place like this as it makes the conversation more interesting.

 

But an event, any event that places such a risk on the participants is always going to be more likely to under threat than any perceived normal events.

 

So in my mind road racing in general, particularly in Ireland and the TT is more likely to be under threat than any other form of bike racing.

 

At amateur and professional levels, the risk of serious injury is just far, far higher.

 

Should it banned?  Of course not. Could it be? In this day and age of insurance and in it to win it regardless lawyers?  I fear it might be.

 

That was the general gyst of my point.

 

And going forward if there is a real risk of that happening, what do you do going forward?  Try and improve the safety situation, if you even can, or sit around and wait to be closed down. 

[Briancoat]

But is there a real risk?
I can't see the Tynwald banning it can you?

[Lee Nicolle]

I would love to go around the TT in my tempo, not oh ****, oh ****, oh ****, tempo but a tempo i could handle. But here is the thing; for some racers. that is probably what they think they do. And as time goes on they crank it up because they feel comfortable with the increased speeds. It is entirely a matter of perspective.

 

Slight OT because i feel that would be more fun to talk about:

Some would never take their daily car to a trackday event. I did. and i went as fast as i dared after idk. 4 laps?

 

Now i did that in a shitbox with 78hp - 1000kg and winter tires. They said it was crazy dangerous..why? because you go slower around the turns? that made no sense to me.. i did not buy into that because all winter tires do is slow you down.. And i did fine. I was not scared of the tires or the speed, but the speed difference between me and the porsches. and much of that was from not knowing the track the first couple of laps. ( i even had a guy jump in the passenger and give me some pointers for the first two laps)  It is a matter of perception.

 

Is it any more dangerous than rental carts? nah.. depends on car and only slightly as you see more than you do on a rental indoor track. I would say risk of severe neck injury is higher in a rental cart if you get rear ended.. No neck support in those seats after all.

 

Ive done:

 

1. Worn out known brand winter tires in the front with new cheap tires in the back - Front: Nokian Hakkapelittas ("no" threads on the tires helps immensely") - Rear: GT radial Champiro winterpro

 

2. ive done good known brand all year tires, with good brand summer tires in the back - Front: Nokian i5 something - Rear: Continental Ecocontact 3

 

3. Shitty summer tires and worn but good brand summer tires - Front: Matador rerubberised summer tires - Rear: Continental Ecocontact 3

 

4. Old worn out Brand tires and good brand summer tires - Front: Kumho something - Rear: Continental Ecocontact 3

 

5. Other **** tires where tested but i had the previous tires so i chanced back when i went sideways going into the corners. (1 lap and straight in)

 

Allmost all bought for cheap on rim from craigslist (actually:ww. finn.no)

 

 

Did i learn alot about tires? oh yes. The matador tires probably had an early exit due to too high tire pressure and a warm day. They went conical and was no longer round. The brands took the same pressure fine tho. 2 bar when cold i believe. Remember i did not get the heat into the tire the same way others did. 5-7  laps at the most in one session. 2min+ laps

But you could feel the rear winter tires slowly get heat into the tire blocks. it got a bit more tail happy, felt like you could feel the rubber getting peeled off. But it was super predicable, It felt like i was throwing it around alot. Sadly i do not have that run on video.

 

This was also done different times of the year on different sizes. So the winter tires was early spring so the heat on the track was way less. Probably helping me out a big deal. The wider tires did reduce my top speed by 2-5km't i think... Could be the hot weather too?

 

"2 x What have you done to it?"

"Checked tire pressures and tightened wheel bolts"

 

Am i the goon? i would perhaps point at the porsche owners with unclear insurances on their cars..Some of them drive.. not so safe either..  my car then is allready turned to nails now.

While you can probably have some fun a LOT of tyres are not suited at all to high performance driving, the tyres are at risk of either seperating or at least chunking. A normal highway tyre is still at risk of chunking with full tread, the reason nearly every control road tyre allows buffing. Full tread tyres are dangerous on a race track. The tread just tears off.

Many road tyres do not have the speed rating either and those ratings do actually mean it!

Pressure too should be on the high end of manufacturers recomendation, around 30-32 lb  warm. over inflating is dangerous as is underinflation.

Brand name means nothing, some el cheapos are as good as the brandname tyre. Though generally do not A. wear as well. B. stay round and some too just 'go off' when a couple of years old.

And these days all tyres are really good for about 3 years whatever brand. Very hot weather and I am told [never very cold here] very cold weather kill the tyres.

[MatsNorway]

This was barely what anyone can call high performance driving.. That car never exceeded even the winter tires speed rating. Rudskogen is a "slow" and twisty track. Best i could manage in terms of speed was probably 140km't perhaps 150 going into turn 3 "Angsten"

 

The worst tire in terms of quality was the slovakian Matador tire some guy in the pits claimed is actually a rerubberised tire, i do believe i ran too high tire pressure on those mind you.. (2bar cold)

 

How they looked when i was done. If an accident would happen it was with these.

http://i1188.photobu...pg?t=1484663153

http://i1188.photobu...zpsclskyebb.jpg

 

Is this what you would call chunking?

 

Full thread tire is not dangerous on track.. just slower.. assuming correct tyre pressure and matched to a car that it should be on.

Edited by MatsNorway, 18 January 2017 - 14:42.

[Charlieman]

Imagine climbing Everest as your first effort at mountaineering. That's what doing the TT as an amateur must be like.

Have you read Mark Gardiner's book about competing the TT as a middle aged Canadian amateur? The author had an advantage over most competitors: gift of the gab and enough short circuit racing experience to convince trade sponsors. Gardiner doesn't talk much about his persuasive skills -- he earned a chance to compete owing to his AMA licence but he had to raise a lot of money.

 

I'm not sure if it is a good book for amateur racers wishing to race at the TT. Gardiner prepared himself by learning as much about the circuit and ensuring that he was on the best prepared bike that he could afford. He made sure that he knew local people who could help. You have to read between the lines about how much preparation it took for him. 

[ehagar]

 

 

And let it be said here, that the majority of fast roads men are NOT always regular winners on race tracks. Some are, before the hate starts. But most are not.  At the moment you have Hicky and Hutchy who are able to win at national level and still win on the roads, and in the past obviously Hizzy, Fogarty and plenty before. But these days it is often guys at the end of their track career or who are not achieving what they want on tracks that start road racing. Or who are at a cross roads in their careers.

 

Unless you are Irish, then you know no different really. And either choose like McWilliams to race on tracks, or take up roads like the Dunlops and numerous others.

 

One of the things that bugged me was when I heard of a young roads racer (the name escapes me) that had a choice between a paying ride on the roads, or paying a team amount of quid to ride at the national level in Britain (I think it was 600 Superstock). It sounds weird, but I worry about events like the TT becoming too popular.

[minime]

Have you read Mark Gardiner's book about competing the TT as a middle aged Canadian amateur? The author had an advantage over most competitors: gift of the gab and enough short circuit racing experience to convince trade sponsors. Gardiner doesn't talk much about his persuasive skills -- he earned a chance to compete owing to his AMA licence but he had to raise a lot of money.

 

I'm not sure if it is a good book for amateur racers wishing to race at the TT. Gardiner prepared himself by learning as much about the circuit and ensuring that he was on the best prepared bike that he could afford. He made sure that he knew local people who could help. You have to read between the lines about how much preparation it took for him. 

A small excerpt from the video One Man's Island that was made of the effort 

[chunder27]

hagar

 

You look at guys like Danny Webb who was supposed to be the next big thing in 125's for years, rode for numerous teams and was a bit of a crasher.

 

Now he is riding on the roads. did very little in 600's on tracks.

 

Makes you wonder really, that much experience he should at least be in WSS or British Supersport if not BSB.