37 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

With the Bianchi family takes legal issues for the deat of Jules Bianchi against F1 I ask: When did we have similar cases?

 

We had a long year process against some Williams members after the death of Senna.

And we had the wife of Donohue take action against Goodyear.

 

Any more?

[Ray Bell]

If you include police legal issues...

Colin Chapman stayed away from Monza after the Clark/von Tripps crash. There are stories of him avoiding the infamous police there for years afterwards.

[scheivlak]

If you include police legal issues...

Colin Chapman stayed away from Monza after the Clark/von Tripps crash. There are stories of him avoiding the infamous police there for years afterwards.

And of course there was Lotus not entering the 1971 Italian GP.

 

Emerson Fittipaldi ran a 56B entered by "World Wide Racing".

[Lee Nicolle]

Unless they start enforcing the rules re yellow flags this will not be the last. In all 'big time' categories.

[Tim Murray]

And of course there was Lotus not entering the 1971 Italian GP.

Emerson Fittipaldi ran a 56B entered by "World Wide Racing".

And again in 1972. Although Lotus had received assurances that no prosecutions or confiscation of cars/equipment would occur, Fittipaldi was entered under the World Wide Racing banner while Walker had no drive. They sent two 72s in separate transporters, just in case. Sadly, one of the transporters was written off in an accident en route to Monza.

[D-Type]

It seems to be mainly an Italian thing.  Apparently under Italian law there is no such concept as "Accidental death" - someone is always to blame.  This is why many fatalities in Italian races take the form of "the driver died after he reached hospital" rather than dying at the circuit or in the ambulance.  If they died at the circuit the circuit owners could be held liable.

 

Surprisingly in the litigation-hungry USA there don't seem to be many cases arising from fatalities.  Presumably the exclusion clauses are watertight.

 

One other case that comes to mind is that of MikeTaylor who was injured at Spa in 1960 when the steering column of his Lotus failed.  He successfully sued Lotus for damages but never raced again..

[Ross Stonefeld]

Almost everywhere are racers pronounced dead at the hospital.

 

I believe when Jeff Krosnoff and Gary Arvin were killed in the 1996 Toronto Indycar race it was treated as a crime scene, in part because it took place on city streets.

 

One of the reasons the US is so pace car happy is because they absolutely do not want corner workers onto live race tracks. The legal/insurance issues are heavy. And after Willy T Ribbs hit(killed) a corner worker, on another street course, you can understand their hesitation. 

[JacnGille]

And we had the wife of Donohue take action against Goodyear.

 

Wasn't Goodyear just one in a longer list?

[Catalina Park]

Almost everywhere are racers pronounced dead at the hospital.
 
I believe when Jeff Krosnoff and Gary Arvin were killed in the 1996 Toronto Indycar race it was treated as a crime scene, in part because it took place on city streets.

When I was driving the medical car at Bathurst we were instructed that under no circumstances was anyone to die at the track.
The only exception was if the head was detached, but if we thought we could get away with it...

I know of two instances where divers have died on a Saturday in practice or support races but the announcement has been made on the Sunday after 2/3 race distance.

[Roger Clark]

If you include police legal issues...

Colin Chapman stayed away from Monza after the Clark/von Tripps crash. There are stories of him avoiding the infamous police there for years afterwards.

Is that right? I think he was there in 1962 and certainly in '63 celebrating Clark's championship.

[Ray Bell]

My memory might well be failing me, Roger...

 

But I do recall big problems for Chapman in the wake of that race, accusations and so on going on for years.

 

I am sure Jenks noted it all in his post race jottings.

Edited by Ray Bell, 29 May 2016 - 09:10.

[D-Type]

I think in 1962-63 the Italians focussed on Clark more than Chapman, Jimmy was certainly "interviwed"by the police at least twice..  In 1971-72 the focus was on Chapman as they had no driver to blame.  After Ronnie's death in 1978 they didn't go for any of the racing establishment as they were able to "blame" the doctors because of the bone marrow embolism.

[Charlieman]

I pondered this question when I read about the Bianchi legal intervention and I couldn't think of a similar case. Examples cited above are about mechanical failure of components on the car supplied by the manufacturer or a supplier. Or about a racing incident.

 

Those accused by the Bianchi family are the team, Marussia, the FIA and Formula One Management group (note absence of the race organisers, contractors etc). The legal case seems to be that race organisation, conduct and planning contributed to Bianchi's death, which makes it different from previous legal interventions.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Don't forget Greg Moore at Fontana in CART.

[Peter Morley]

I pondered this question when I read about the Bianchi legal intervention and I couldn't think of a similar case. Examples cited above are about mechanical failure of components on the car supplied by the manufacturer or a supplier. Or about a racing incident.

 

Those accused by the Bianchi family are the team, Marussia, the FIA and Formula One Management group (note absence of the race organisers, contractors etc). The legal case seems to be that race organisation, conduct and planning contributed to Bianchi's death, which makes it different from previous legal interventions.

 

There might be similarities with Roger Williamson's death?

Or is the difference that the race organisers there were clearly felt to have contributed?

[F1matt]

Don't forget Greg Moore at Fontana in CART.

Didn't Greg Moore's family sue the owners of Fontana raceway for not having any protection on the wall he hit or the run off area been bumpy causing his car to flip?

[Charlieman]

There might be similarities with Roger Williamson's death?

Or is the difference that the race organisers there were clearly felt to have contributed?

Roger Williamson was a Leicestershire lad, backed by another Leicestershire lad, Tom. There were no plummy mouthed deals between millionaires; OK, Tom had his dosh from property development, but Roger was a mate.

 

I've read records from the Zandvoort circuit. And we know that the marshals, without protective equipment and maybe effective fire extinguishers, were just around the corner-ish.

 

Dave Purley stopped his car on the track having observed a burning car just off track. It is important to remember that he stopped. And it is really sad that David Purley couldn't save Roger.

 

Three years later, Niki Lauda had his famous crash at the Nurburgring. You know what: all of the drivers stopped. And Niki was rescued from his burning car by the back of grid crowd, credit to Art.

[GMACKIE]

Just wondering...how long will it be, before most people live in a house owned by a lawyer ?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Most people live in houses owned by banks 

[DavidI]

Almost everywhere are racers pronounced dead at the hospital.
 
I believe when Jeff Krosnoff and Gary Arvin were killed in the 1996 Toronto Indycar race it was treated as a crime scene, in part because it took place on city streets.
 
One of the reasons the US is so pace car happy is because they absolutely do not want corner workers onto live race tracks. The legal/insurance issues are heavy. And after Willy T Ribbs hit(killed) a corner worker, on another street course, you can understand their hesitation.

My understanding is that as soon as a participant is killed at the track a coroner must investigate and this means the race cannot continue (for legal reasons, possibly due to preservation of evidence). However if the participant is pronounced dead at the hospital rather than at the track, the race does not need to be stopped. Someone of a more legal bent may be able to explain it better or correct me, I am reasonably sure it's mentioned in Dr Steve Olvey's book

[Jim Thurman]

It seems to be mainly an Italian thing.  Apparently under Italian law there is no such concept as "Accidental death" - someone is always to blame.  This is why many fatalities in Italian races take the form of "the driver died after he reached hospital" rather than dying at the circuit or in the ambulance.  If they died at the circuit the circuit owners could be held liable.

 

Surprisingly in the litigation-hungry USA there don't seem to be many cases arising from fatalities.  Presumably the exclusion clauses are watertight.

 

 

There have been many, many in the USA from deaths and injuries on oval tracks. Signed waivers often don't hold up, particularly in cases of gross negligence. Litigation hungry because, well, capitalism. Sadly, significant monetary loss is about the only thing that can force changes.

 

Almost everywhere are racers pronounced dead at the hospital.

 

I believe when Jeff Krosnoff and Gary Arvin were killed in the 1996 Toronto Indycar race it was treated as a crime scene, in part because it took place on city streets.

 

One of the reasons the US is so pace car happy is because they absolutely do not want corner workers onto live race tracks. The legal/insurance issues are heavy. And after Willy T Ribbs hit(killed) a corner worker, on another street course, you can understand their hesitation. 

 

Not a crime scene, it's investigation of a fatal accident. State police are involved many places whenever there is a fatal auto accident, regardless whether it was on street or race track. The through street below me has seen two fatal accidents in recent years with accident investigation closures that took 6 to 12 hours.

 

The Ribbs' incident changed Indy Car. Prior to that, course workers often ran out and picked up debris off road/street courses, so there was rarely need for a pace car/lengthy full course yellow for simple debris. The biggest change for NASCAR (ISC) came when a local paramedic was badly injured after being struck while attending to an injured driver during an ARCA race at Daytona.

[David Lawson]

Fortunately there were no serious injuries to Graham Hill but BRM tried to claim compensation when their brand new car was written off in a crash caused by Hill running over a cine camera that had fallen off another car during official practice for the 1962 German Grand Prix. I don't remember if they were successful and whether it actually got as far as legal proceedings.

 

David

Edited by David Lawson, 01 June 2016 - 11:01.

[hogstar]

My understanding is that as soon as a participant is killed at the track a coroner must investigate and this means the race cannot continue (for legal reasons, possibly due to preservation of evidence). However if the participant is pronounced dead at the hospital rather than at the track, the race does not need to be stopped. Someone of a more legal bent may be able to explain it better or correct me, I am reasonably sure it's mentioned in Dr Steve Olvey's book

 

I think that is true in some countries and most certainly in Italy, where nobody ever 'dies' on the track, they are kept artificially alive and die in a hospital or medical centre so the race isn't cancelled as it legally should. 

 

One thing that often gets overlooked with the tragic events at Imola '94. If Italian law had been upheld where a death occurs, the event is immediately cancelled. Senna would never had been killed as the event would not have run...

[Lee Nicolle]

I think that is true in some countries and most certainly in Italy, where nobody ever 'dies' on the track, they are kept artificially alive and die in a hospital or medical centre so the race isn't cancelled as it legally should. 

 

One thing that often gets overlooked with the tragic events at Imola '94. If Italian law had been upheld where a death occurs, the event is immediately cancelled. Senna would never had been killed as the event would not have run...

94, dont forget on the Saturday another was killed too. As I watched the Senna accident the way he was slumped in the car I thought he was dead, 

Wether or not he was is conjecture ofcourse.

[Charlieman]

"Wether or not he was is conjecture of course"

 

I don't care about that particular sheep.

[GMACKIE]

Trust ewe !

[E1pix]

This thread has taken a ewe turn.

[GMACKIE]

You mean it's getting interesting ?

[Teapot]

I think in 1962-63 the Italians focussed on Clark more than Chapman, Jimmy was certainly "interviwed"by the police at least twice..  In 1971-72 the focus was on Chapman as they had no driver to blame.  After Ronnie's death in 1978 they didn't go for any of the racing establishment as they were able to "blame" the doctors because of the bone marrow embolism.

 

Not really. Following Peterson's death, Riccardo Patrese was aquitted of all charges by an Italian court only several years after the accident (1982, from the top of my head).

[Doug Nye]

I still struggle with the mindset of the marshals who attended Roger Williamson's accident at Zandvoort in '73.

 

They might not have been fire-suited, they might have been facing a ferocious blaze, they certainly felt at risk, but to leave Rodge in there without any attempt whatsoever to help David Purley at least right the car - which MUST have been possible had they only amassed sufficient muscle power - left an indelible anger within all who knew the team and the personalities involved.

 

To me it remains a sickening example of grown men absolutely freezing in a crisis and proving totally inadequate for the situation which so horribly confronted them.  

 

I know this is tough, and I do have sympathy for the images and traumas they have quite probably experienced in flash-backs ever since that day - but having been burned, and scalded, myself I can't imagine how they didn't at least...well...try...? The fact at least one of them actually obstructed Purls in his efforts made the incident even more unpalatable.

 

One or two South African marshals pitched in and at least tried to help Mike the Bike pull the unconscious Clay Regazzoni from his burning BRM at Kyalami.  I have always admired the Dutch...but that day strained my ingrained admiration.  Sorry Cloggies - but in this case one can only write as one feels...

 

DCN

[scheivlak]

I still struggle with the mindset of the marshals who attended Roger Williamson's accident at Zandvoort in '73.

 

They might not have been fire-suited, they might have been facing a ferocious blaze, they certainly felt at risk, but to leave Rodge in there without any attempt whatsoever to help David Purley at least right the car - which MUST have been possible had they only amassed sufficient muscle power - left an indelible anger within all who knew the team and the personalities involved.

 

To me it remains a sickening example of grown men absolutely freezing in a crisis and proving totally inadequate for the situation which so horribly confronted them.  

 

I know this is tough, and I do have sympathy for the images and traumas they have quite probably experienced in flash-backs ever since that day - but having been burned, and scalded, myself I can't imagine how they didn't at least...well...try...? The fact at least one of them actually obstructed Purls in his efforts made the incident even more unpalatable.

 

One or two South African marshals pitched in and at least tried to help Mike the Bike pull the unconscious Clay Regazzoni from his burning BRM at Kyalami.  I have always admired the Dutch...but that day strained my ingrained admiration.  Sorry Cloggies - but in this case one can only write as one feels...

 

DCN

The root of it IMHO is that the Zandvoort owners / Dutch GP organisers saw themselves and promoted themselves as a beacon of modernity and safety at that time, turning a blind eye to anything conflicting that view - even after what happened in 1970. They prided themselves with their application of catch fences et cetera, and saw anything they couldn't cover just a case of bad luck. From what I have seen and heard it almost seems that they were more annoyed about an unlucky crash spoiling their image and their efforts rather than that they were really regretting the death of a human person.

[TecnoRacing]

I still struggle with the mindset of the marshals who attended Roger Williamson's accident at Zandvoort in '73.

 

They might not have been fire-suited, they might have been facing a ferocious blaze, they certainly felt at risk, but to leave Rodge in there without any attempt whatsoever to help David Purley at least right the car - which MUST have been possible had they only amassed sufficient muscle power - left an indelible anger within all who knew the team and the personalities involved.

 

To me it remains a sickening example of grown men absolutely freezing in a crisis and proving totally inadequate for the situation which so horribly confronted them.  

 

I know this is tough, and I do have sympathy for the images and traumas they have quite probably experienced in flash-backs ever since that day - but having been burned, and scalded, myself I can't imagine how they didn't at least...well...try...? The fact at least one of them actually obstructed Purls in his efforts made the incident even more unpalatable.

 

One or two South African marshals pitched in and at least tried to help Mike the Bike pull the unconscious Clay Regazzoni from his burning BRM at Kyalami.  I have always admired the Dutch...but that day strained my ingrained admiration.  Sorry Cloggies - but in this case one can only write as one feels...

 

DCN

 

 

Agreed 100% Doug...it's the blasé nature of the response that is so bothersome. Fully appreciating the almost insurmountable physical barrier that is heat/fire to an unequipped responder, a bit of urgency - even to tear off for more help - (whether ultimately effective or not) would at least been appreciated. I have the highest respect for volunteer marshals, but it's not a job I would take without a grave sense of consequence.

[JacnGille]

I still struggle with the mindset of the marshals who attended Roger Williamson's accident at Zandvoort in '73...

 

DCN

My thoughts exactly. One thing that comes to mind is to wonder what level, if any, of training these marshals (and marshals in general) received back then. Volunteers or not, if they didn't know what was expected of them and what situations they might find themselves in then they should never have been given the responsibility.

 

My thoughts as a long time SCCA Tech Inspector and sometime corner worker (marshal).

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
.....I have always admired the Dutch...but that day strained my ingrained admiration.....

And they had been warned...

Jack's accident in the BT33 where he got wrapped up in the catch fencing, a hapless potential fire victim with no chance of escape, should have rung some alarms.




.

Edited by Ray Bell, 03 June 2016 - 18:18.

[john aston]

Friends who were at Zandvoort  as spectators. but who had marshalling experience, saw the blaze and tried to help but were prevented from doing so - by police I think- and were not allowed to cross the barriers. It makes sense in a way, 'civilians' can be more hindrance than help , and the race, shamefully and unforgivably  was still going on . But in view of the fact that it was the actions  of one very brave man - DP of course - for anything at all to be done I wish they had been able to help ..

 

'Health and Safety Gone Mad ' is a popular cry - but I am sure I am not the  only one who thinks  that Zandvoort '73 could have done with even a token effort at both.  I am not give to tears but they flowed when I read David Tremayne's wonderful 'Lost Generation' about RW, TB and TP  A  little more of both H and S might have saved all three

[Mallory Dan]

I've always thought the drivers themselves could have helped more. Some of them must have passed DP at least once and seen his frantic efforts to get Roger out. Stain on them all I reckon too, especially the 'safety campaigners'....

[Mohican]

Zandvoort 1973 with Williamson was absolutely unforgivable - particularly in light of Zandvoort 1970 when Piers Courage perished in very similar circumstances. Although not on live TV.

Also agree that it reflects very badly on all the other drivers, except Purley of course. The usual argument that they saw a driver out of the car, etc does not hold up.

 

The spirit of the times was very different from today, though. Lorenzo Bandini (Monaco '67), Jacky Ickx & Jack Oliver (Jarama 1970), Jo Siffert (Brands Hatch 1971); in all cases the race went on in spite of drivers being caught in fires. Ickx and Oliver were lucky to survive, as was Clay Regazzoni at Kyalami in 1973 (we must not forget poor Peter Revson at the same circuit a year later).

 

There is a sickening photograph of Chris Amon in the second Ferrari gingerly picking his way past the debris of his teammate being burnt alive at Monaco. Or for that matter even Stewart driving his March past the blaze at Jarama (he cannot have known from the beginning that both drivers were OK since Ickx was first trapped in the Ferrari).

 

The old days were not necessarily good.

[john winfield]

...

Also agree that it reflects very badly on all the other drivers, except Purley of course. The usual argument that they saw a driver out of the car, etc does not hold up.

....

The spirit of the times was very different from today, though. Lorenzo Bandini (Monaco '67), Jacky Ickx & Jack Oliver (Jarama 1970), Jo Siffert (Brands Hatch 1971); in all cases the race went on in spite of drivers being caught in fires. Ickx and Oliver were lucky to survive, as was Clay Regazzoni at Kyalami in 1973 (we must not forget poor Peter Revson at the same circuit a year later).

 

 

The old days were not necessarily good.

Just a point of detail, Mohican; the Brands 1971 race didn't continue after Jo Siffert's crash. The leaders were already through Hawthorns, obviously, once the fire developed. If I remember rightly, a few cars running directly behind Jo (eg John Surtees) scraped through and headed for the pits. (They must have come past me, I was at Clearways, but I only recall the dark smoke billowing up behind the trees). I'm fairly sure the midfield and backmarkers ground to a halt on the same lap as the accident, whereas  Gethin, Fittipaldi, Stewart etc. presumably were flagged down on the next lap as they rounded South Bank, certainly before Pilgrim's Drop. There's an upsetting photo taken from behind the stationary cars as drivers watch the fire at Hawthorns.

 

I'm sure that in 1973, when I was 15, I couldn't understand why the other drivers didn't stop to help at Zandvoort. I think differently now. David Purley, I believe, was close enough behind Roger Williamson to see exactly what happened and chose to stop and do something incredibly brave. But the drivers were there to race and the organisers to organise. No-one could accuse Denny Hulme, Mike Hailwood and others of being cowardly - they were brave guys - but they, and campaigner Jackie Stewart, were let down by incompetent race (and championship) organisation. The drivers should not have been put in a position where they were made to feel guilty for continuing to race. Trialling the 'safety car' later that season was a direct consequence of the Zandvoort tragedy.

 

Apologies for drifting OT.