30 replies to this topic

[Melbourne Park]

Please explain to me why the new combustion tricks in Mercedes, Ferrari and Now Renault (half of their engines at Monaco) are not illegal. They sure seem to me to be contrary to the rules. 

 

Background

 

This weekend, Renault introduced a revised motor, which has increased engine performance.  The Renault engine joins Ferrari and Mercedes, in using innovative technology that no F1 engine producers care to discuss.

 

For some time, it was thought that Mercedes were using HCCI technology to provide extra performance. When queried, Mercedes have denied they were using HCCI technology.

 

Now, it appears that Mercedes have been using  a somewhat similar diesel fueling technology, called  simply Jet Ignition. Mahle supplied Mercedes with upper cylinder technology until recently, and Mahle also are supplying Ferrari. Its possible too that they are now supplying Renault. Such technology comes from diesel truck engines. 

 

Essentially TJI commences the fuel burn early, which improves lean burn combustion. Lean burn efficiency is mandatory  with today’s fuel restricted F1 engine formula.

 

To quote Motorsports April 16 article on Ferrari’s TJI:

 

 

 

TJI system Mahle outlines incorporates a small pre-chamber in which the injector and the spark plug reside. The injection is made at around 60-deg before the piston has reached top-dead-centre. 97% of the fuel energy goes into the main combustion chamber, with the remaining 3% in this small pre-chamber.

http://www.motorspor...-1-jet-ignition

 

Also, Autosport's article by Scarb's is worth a read:

http://www.autosport...4623.1383769632

 

Since there is combustion in the pre-chamber, the powertrain is gaining extra power from another source, which is contrary to the F1 engine rules.

The rules state:

.    5.1.1  Only 4-stroke engines with reciprocating pistons are permitted. 


.    5.1.2  Engine cubic capacity must be 1600cc (+0/-10cc).

.    
…

.    5.1.4  Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h. 


.    5.1.5  Below 10500rpm the fuel mass flow must not exceed Q (kg/h) = 0.009 N(rpm)+ 5.5. 


.    5.1.6  Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine …

 

5.2 Other means of propulsion and energy recovery :

1. 5.2.1  The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to propel the car, is not permitted.2.

2. 5.2.2  Energy flows, power and ES state of charge limits are defined in the energy flow diagram shown in Appendix 3 of these regulations. 

Ref.: 2016 FORMULA ONE TECHNICAL REGULATIONS

PUBLISHED ON 27 FEBRUARY 2016

 

This Regulation document can be downloaded from the FIA site, but I cannot provide the link, because touching the link immediately downloads the document. It is also obtainable here though:  http://www.docfoc.co...-2016-02-27-pdf

 

A note here:  the Appendix 3 referred to above in 5.2.2, refers to the restrictions placed by rule 5.1.6

 

Why the Top Formula Engines Seem to Me to be Illegal

 

Why are today’s new generation engines – such as the engine Mercedes from the Italian GP onwards – illegal?

 

Firstly, they evidently are using a combustion chamber which is external to the engine capacity – evidently which uses 3% of the fuel burn, according to Motorsport. 

 

Secondly since there is combustion occurring before the cyclinders, there is extra pressure occurring before cylinder combustion chambers, hence contrary to rule 5.1.6, and to rule 5.2.1, "use of any other device.."

 

Please explain why this new secret technology has not been declared illegal by Joe Bauer and the FIA.

 

Finally and really my main bugbear - surely the secrecy of engines needs to be opened up so that the public can understand what is happening? Opening up access to technology would also lower costs and make engine manufacture entry into F1 more easy. Perhaps too, the rules fraternity need to know more themselves?

 

Finally, I must be stupid, because I think a pre chamber which burns energy, is quite against more than one rule. So please, shoot me down.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 29 May 2016 - 06:01.

[Peter0Scandlyn]

 

Finally, I must be stupid, because I think a pre chamber which burns energy, is quite against more than one rule. So please, shoot me down.

 

Don't be so hard on yourself.

[ClubmanGT]

Disqualify everyone since 1990, amend results to make Ivan Capelli 26x F1 World Champion 

[Marklar]

I've read somewhere that HCCI is not legal, but TJI is

[mistareno]

This has been covered in other threads, but the TJI system is quite legal, if it uses only 1 injector.

 

The engine displacement is unaffected by a pre-chamber, as it is the swept volume that is critical, not the Combustion Chamber volume.

 

The pre-chamber is not 'sealed' from the main Combustion Chamber.

 

The pictures posted of the Mahle TJI system (below) are based on the system when it was initially submitted for patent a few years ago.

 

 

The system as pictured would be illegal as it requires the use of 2 seperate injectors. A small one for the circa 3% used in the pre-chamber, and another larger unit for the main combustion chamber.

 

I believe the image below of a recent BMW patent below is the most likely way they have implemented the TJI system within the current regulation framework.

 

It uses a single multi orifice injector which delivers a metered amount to the pre-chamber.

 

The system as above would be 100% legal to any interpretation of the rules.

 

It's probably best to think of the TJI system as the worlds biggest and best spark plug.

 

The spark plug ignites the small amount of fuel in the TJI pre-chamber and that pilot mixture blasts through the pre-chamber holes as flame jets that create turbulence and ignite the highly lean main mixture from multiple points within the combustion chamber.

 

The TJI allows substantial improvements in efficiency by allowing ultra lean burn conditions and facilitating the use of higher compression ratio's than would otherwise be possible which produces more power.

Edited by mistareno, 29 May 2016 - 06:32.

[Melbourne Park]

I've read somewhere that HCCI is not legal, but TJI is

They both use the same trick: as Scarbs describes, HCCI: pre chamber ignition.

 

http://www.autosport...4623.1383769632

 

The illustrations of both systems (one from Motorsports article http://www.motorspor...-1-jet-ignition and Scarbs article referenced in the previous line, show that both feature pre chamber ignition. Surely this is a source of power outside of the areas power is allowed from. Further, it increases the capacity of the engine. Since it is combustion, it fails the description of the combustion chamber (being circular). Plus it results in increased pressure into the cylinder head outside of the turbine, which is also illegal.

 

Both break the rules IMO.

[Graveltrappen]

Ooooooooo kay.

*backs out of thread*

[Melbourne Park]

This has been covered in other threads, but the TJI system is quite legal, if it uses only 1 injector.

 

The engine displacement is unaffected by a pre-chamber, as it is the swept volume that is critical, not the Combustion Chamber volume.

 

The pictures posted of the Mahle TJI system (below) are based on the system when it was initially submitted for patent a few years ago.

 

 

The system as pictured would be illegal as it requires the use of 2 seperate injectors. A small one for the circa 3% used in the pre-chamber, and another larger unit for the main combustion chamber.

 

I believe the image below of a recent BMW patent below is the most likely way they have implemented the TJI system within the current regulation framework.

 

It uses a single multi orifice injector which delivers a metered amount to the pre-chamber.

 

The system as above would be 100% legal to any interpretation of the rules.

 

Any pre- chamber which combusts fuel must break the rules - IMO. Motorsport in discussing Ferrari's Mahle system - which is likely what Mercedes are also using - say that 3% of energy is utilised in the pre-combustion chamber. That breaks the rules. As does the energy itself which changes pressures into the combustion chamber, which I would argue also breaks the induction rules. 

 

IMO of course. 

Edited by Melbourne Park, 29 May 2016 - 06:30.

[mistareno]

Which Rule (s)?

[GrumpyYoungMan]

They won't ban it, not now, as all the engine manufactures are using it now and as a result it isn't a reason for Mercedes dominance of the current PU...

[mistareno]

They both use the same trick: as Scarbs describes, HCCI: pre chamber ignition.

 

http://www.autosport...4623.1383769632

 

The illustrations of both systems (one from Motorsports article http://www.motorspor...-1-jet-ignition and Scarbs article referenced in the previous line, show that both feature pre chamber ignition. Surely this is a source of power outside of the areas power is allowed from. Further, it increases the capacity of the engine. Since it is combustion, it fails the description of the combustion chamber (being circular). Plus it results in increased pressure into the cylinder head outside of the turbine, which is also illegal.

 

Both break the rules IMO.

 

The Mahle TJI system IS NOT A HCCI SYSTEM.

 

HCCI relies on 'self combustion'. Usually over a a very narrow degree of operation. Self Ignition would not be allowed in the regulations. In all Petrol engines where HCCI has been implemented, HCCI has only ever been used under light load running to increase economy in freeway and constant speed driving. It's use in F1 would be minimal at best.

 

The TJI system is always spark plug ignited and is used over the entire power band.

[mistareno]

They won't ban it, not now, as all the engine manufactures are using it now and as a result it isn't a reason for Mercedes dominance of the current PU...

 

They won't ban it because it doesn't break any rules (if a single injector is used)

Edited by mistareno, 29 May 2016 - 06:46.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

They won't ban it because it doesn't break any rules (if a single injector is used)

;)

[Melbourne Park]

They won't ban it, not now, as all the engine manufactures are using it now and as a result it isn't a reason for Mercedes dominance of the current PU...

Agreed, although if Honda protested, then things might get more complicated. The FIA should have clarified things, but then, maybe they already have made an amendment and communicated it with the engine makers. 

[Pierce89]

TJI is absolutely legal provided they use only one injector as stated,described and pictured above.

[HP]

If illegal, shall we crown McLaren WCC and however driver ends up with more points WDC? Assuming that Honda doesn't implement TJI as well anytime this season.

 

However what strikes me odd is that IIRC I've read that Mercedes doesn't use the Mahle system. So what are they using then?

 

But over all, FIA should bin a few pages of their rule books. Give teams and engine makers more freedom to come up with innovative solutions.

[mistareno]

Agreed, although if Honda protested, then things might get more complicated. The FIA should have clarified things, but then, maybe they already have made an amendment and communicated it with the engine makers. 

 

What are they going to protest?

 

It uses a spark plug and 1 injector.

[Melbourne Park]

They won't ban it because it doesn't break any rules (if a single injector is used)

I don't think the injector number is the issue. 

 

This is how Motorsport (part quote) describes the single injector TJI Mahle system:

 

 

 

The TJI system Mahle outlines incorporates a small pre-chamber in which the injector and the spark plug reside. The injection is made at around 60-deg before the piston has reached top-dead-centre. 97% of the fuel energy goes into the main combustion chamber, with the remaining 3% in this small pre-chamber. A nozzle between the pre-chamber and the main chamber has a series of tiny holes, presenting the mix to the main chamber in a series of high-pressure jets. The spark arrives in the pre-chamber at around 22-deg before top-dead centre (BTDC) and that igniting mass is allowed into the main combustion chamber at between 12 and 5-degrees BTDC – thereby igniting the fuel within the main chamber.

There are two things happening there, which are contrary to the engine rules. Namely, power being generated outside of the combustion chamber ( 5.2.1  The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to propel the car, is not permitted. 
), and also, expansion forces which are additional to the turbo, which effect cylinder induction pressure (5.1.6  Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor ). 

 

The rules are pretty clear IMO ... and saying that its legal without referring to the rules, doesn't help me. I already know that the FIA has approved this technology ...

Edited by Melbourne Park, 29 May 2016 - 07:02.

[Melbourne Park]

What are they going to protest?

 

It uses a spark plug and 1 injector.

Rules 5.2.1 and rules 5.1.6.

 

One is increasing induction pressure outside of the turbo.  The other is combustion in another chamber which is not part of the engine capacity. The quote being, that 3% of the fuel used is combusted outside of the combustion chamber. In a pre-chamber. That is not measured in the capacity of the 1.6 litre motor. That is also not described as a combustion chamber, yet it is combusting fuel and creating energy. That's a lot of energy actually ...

Edited by Melbourne Park, 29 May 2016 - 07:08.

[mistareno]

Rules 5.2.1 and rules 5.1.6.

5.2.1 The use of any device, other than the engine described in 5.1 above, and one MGU-K, to propel the car, is not permitted.

 

 

The TJI system is part of the engine described in 5.1.

 

 

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it. The shaft may not be mechanically linked to any other device.

 

How is the turbocharger at all related to the TJI system?

 

Just to remove any ambiguity, here is 5.1 in it's entirety:

 

 

5.1 Engine specification :

5.1.1 Only 4-stroke engines with reciprocating pistons are permitted. ✓

5.1.2 Engine cubic capacity must be 1600cc (+0/-10cc). ✓

5.1.3 Crankshaft rotational speed must not exceed 15000rpm.✓

5.1.4 Fuel mass flow must not exceed 100kg/h.✓

5.1.5 Below 10500rpm the fuel mass flow must not exceed Q (kg/h) = 0.009 N(rpm)+ 5.5.✓

5.1.6 Pressure charging may only be effected by the use of a sole single stage compressor linked to a sole single stage exhaust turbine by a shaft assembly parallel to the engine crankshaft and within 25mm of the car centre line. The shaft must be designed so as to ensure that the shaft assembly, the compressor and the turbine always rotate about a common axis and at the same angular velocity, an electrical motor generator (MGU-H) may be directly coupled to it. The shaft may not be mechanically linked to any other device.✓

5.1.7 All engines must have six cylinders arranged in a 90° “V” configuration and the normal section of each cylinder must be circular.
All six cylinders must be of equal capacity.✓

5.1.8 Engines must have two inlet and two exhaust valves per cylinder.
Only reciprocating poppet valves with axial displacement are permitted.
The sealing interface between the moving valve component and the stationary engine component must be circular.✓

5.1.9 Engine exhaust gases may only exit the cylinder head through outlets outboard of the cylinder bore centre line and not from within the “V” centre.✓

5.1.10 The crankshaft may only have three connecting rod bearing journals.✓

 

The TJI system doesn't conflict with any of those.

 

The reasons I initially had reservation about the TJI system were because the original Mahle TJI system required 2 seperate injectors. People (even Scarbs) keep posting pictures of that 2 injector system (without showing or mentioning the patent that the picture comes from clearly states there is a second injector for the main CC). .

That system is NOT legal as it breaks 5:10:2

 

 

5.10.2 There may only be one direct injector per cylinder and no injectors are permitted upstream of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

 

The BMW patent I linked to (and pictured) earlier gets around that problem as it uses 1 injector preforming both functions.

Edited by mistareno, 29 May 2016 - 07:19.

[mistareno]

Rules 5.2.1 and rules 5.1.6.

 

One is increasing induction pressure outside of the turbo.  The other is combustion in another chamber which is not part of the engine capacity. The quote being, that 3% of the fuel used is combusted outside of the combustion chamber. In a pre-chamber. That is not measured in the capacity of the 1.6 litre motor. That is also not described as a combustion chamber, yet it is combusting fuel and creating energy. That's a lot of energy actually ...

 

The capacity of the engine is the SWEPT VOLUME of the piston in the cylinder.

 

The combustion chamber volume just affects the static compression ratio. The pre-chamber volume is open to the main combustion chamber as there are several holes in the pre-chamber.

 

 

1.10 Engine cubic capacity :
The volume swept in the cylinders of the engine by the movement of the pistons. This volume shall be expressed in cubic centimetres. In calculating engine cubic capacity, the number Pi shall be 3.1416.

Edited by mistareno, 29 May 2016 - 07:29.

[jjcale]

5 star thread .....

[Melbourne Park]

The capacity of the engine is the SWEPT VOLUME of the piston in the cylinder.

 

The combustion chamber volume just affects the static compression ratio. The pre-chamber volume is open to the main combustion chamber as there are several holes in the pre-chamber.

So, you are saying its legal for me to have a 50cc chamber for every cylinder, where fuel is ignited, before it enters the measured circular combustion chamber via tiny holes? That would make my engine have a capacity of 1.6 + 6x50cc = 1.6 + 300cc =1.9 litres. 

 

How would I take advantage of that capacity? By increasing the turbine pressure. And since there is combustion in the pre-chamber, I suggest that also means that the injector is acting as a valve in its own combustion chamber. And the number of valves is limited ... 

 

That fact that there is a considerable amount of fuel being burnt in the pre - chamber, means that it is an area where energy is being created, that is not part of the specified engine ... IMO of course.   

Edited by Melbourne Park, 29 May 2016 - 07:51.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

So, you are saying its legal for me to have a 50cc chamber for every cylinder, where fuel is ignited, before it enters the measured circular combustion chamber via tiny holes? That would make my engine have a capacity of 1.6 + 6x50cc = 1.6 + 300cc =1.9 litres.

How would I take advantage of that capacity? By increasing the turbine pressure.

That fact that there is a considerable amount of fuel being burnt in the pre - chamber, means that it is an area where energy is being created, that is not part of the specified engine ... IMO of course.

Not if you allow for the pre chamber in the swept volume....

[mistareno]

So, you are saying its legal for me to have a 50cc chamber for every cylinder, where fuel is ignited, before it enters the measured circular combustion chamber via tiny holes? That would make my engine have a capacity of 1.6 + 6x50cc = 1.6 + 300cc =1.9 litres. 

 

How would I take advantage of that capacity? By increasing the turbine pressure. 

 

That fact that there is a considerable amount of fuel being burnt in the pre - chamber, means that it is an area where energy is being created, that is not part of the specified engine ... IMO of course.   

 

 

The engine capacity is the SWEPT DISPLACEMENT.

 

The swept displacement is the volume displaced by the Piston as it travels up and down it's stroke. It is completely independent of the combustion chamber 'squish' volume

 

You could have a combustion chamber 400cc if you wanted. It wouldn't change the engines displacement, but the engine wouldn't start as it would have no compression.

 

The rules don't state what you CAN do, they just state what CAN'T do.

 

There are no rules regarding the combustion chamber design apart from the proviso that it must has 4 valves per cylinder, a spark plug for ignition and a single injector within the combustion chamber.

 

If it complies with those points, the engine complies with the regs.

 

 

Here again is the rule regarding engine displacement. It is the same method for calculating the capacity of every engine ever made.

 

 

1.10 Engine cubic capacity :
The volume swept in the cylinders of the engine by the movement of the pistons. This volume shall be expressed in cubic centimetres. In calculating engine cubic capacity, the number Pi shall be 3.1416.

Edited by mistareno, 29 May 2016 - 08:11.

[ExFlagMan]

Bloody truck engine technology - we want proper racing engine like them big Australian road cars....

[FPV GTHO]

The only legality issue over Jet Ignition seems to be some think it has an extra injector or that there is a loophole for an.extra injector but I don't see it.

The pre chamber, is still connected to the main chamber AFAIK. As explicitly pointed out by mistareno, that doesn't affect swept volume. I believe that addresses you're first 2 points.

As to the third, whilst admiral, are you kidding?

[PayasYouRace]

 

Finally, I must be stupid, because I think a pre chamber which burns energy, is quite against more than one rule. So please, shoot me down.

 

You have been shot down by mistareno.

 

Actually I think you were shot down by the very Scarbs article you attempted to use as evidence.

[JtP2]

Disqualify everyone since 1990, amend results to make Ivan Capelli 26x F1 World Champion

No, you have to disqualify every car ever entered in a GO bar one. All four stroke engines use a combustion chamber outside the wept volume of the cylinder. So That makes Emmerson Fittipaldi in the Lotus 56 the only F1 GP winner and thus the only DWC.

[Melbourne Park]

...

 

Actually I think you were shot down by the very Scarbs article you attempted to use as evidence.

Am I allowed to debate you?

[Melbourne Park]

No, you have to disqualify every car ever entered in a GO bar one. All four stroke engines use a combustion chamber outside the wept volume of the cylinder. So That makes Emmerson Fittipaldi in the Lotus 56 the only F1 GP winner and thus the only DWC.

Not really ... because the real issue, is the effect on fuel flow ... by having a chamber which ignites before the normal timing - and the timing is illustrated by Motorsport - fuel flow timing can be smoothed over. I don't think previous engines had fuel flow restrictions. And those engines and their mixture ignited directly by the spark plug - not by feed from a separate combustion chamber. 

Edited by Melbourne Park, 29 May 2016 - 13:08.