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Sauber 1992, A season of testing before F1 entry in 1993

Started by EvilPhil II , May 29 2016 12:06

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33 replies to this topic

#1 EvilPhil II

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 12:06

A little know fact regarding Sauber is that following their 1991 World Sports Car Championship campaign, they were due to enter F1 in 1992 as a full works Mercedes entry in 1992. However, in late 1991 Mercedes decided at board level to pull the plug on their plans following poor economic conditions.

Sauber then made a very brave decision of entering anyway on their own and began a years testing in 1992 before entering f1 in 1993. That first race in South Africa was really impressive - far more so than Haas this season.

Some photographic evidence is out there about this and is notable by the Sauber C12 testing with the much wider Good Year tyres that were then narrowed in 1993.

I am interested in learning more about Sauber's testing that year and which circuits they were at and any materials people might have from those tests.

#2 EvilPhil II

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 14:35

I'll also add that it is particularly sad to see this team with so much history finish today's race in such a manner while Mercedes win. If only in 1995 Mercedes had supplied two teams perhaps.

#3 superden

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 14:37

Wrong section. Head over to TNF.

#4 EvilPhil II

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 14:55

Man, I feel old LOL

Start new post or move this one?

#5 Silverstone96

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 15:01

What if but Merc wanted a big partner and at the time McLaren was the biggest team in F1, it may have taken a couple more years but Merc got what they wanted for 1995.

Agree that the team is an embarrassment today, kept afloat by two pay drivers who frankly should not be in F1. Some may see that as harsh on Nasr but I wouldn't put him in the top 50 drivers in the world let alone 22

#6 superden

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 16:01

Man, I feel old LOL

Old?! The 1992 season isn't that long ago, at least it doesn't seem like a long time ago to me!

#7 George Costanza

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 16:41

If Sauber and Mercedes were a full works team, I have to say Michael Schumacher would have went to the original Sauber Mercedes F1 team. I don't think Benetton or Ferrari would have been in the cards. Either Michael or Heinz Harold Frentzen. Or both of them would have been teammates.

Edited by George Costanza, 29 May 2016 - 16:43.

#8 EvilPhil II

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 19:51

In 1994 Mercedes did commit to Sauber - so officially Sauber was Sauber Mercedes in 1994 with Frentzen

#9 george1981

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 20:21

If Sauber and Mercedes were a full works team, I have to say Michael Schumacher would have went to the original Sauber Mercedes F1 team. I don't think Benetton or Ferrari would have been in the cards. Either Michael or Heinz Harold Frentzen. Or both of them would have been teammates.

I think Sauber/Mercedes had a first refusal on Michael's services should Mercedes enter F1 as an engine supplier. Mercedes paid for Michael's first drive with Jordan, they actually paid for it through Peter Sauber.

#10 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 20:39

If Sauber and Mercedes were a full works team, I have to say Michael Schumacher would have went to the original Sauber Mercedes F1 team. I don't think Benetton or Ferrari would have been in the cards. Either Michael or Heinz Harold Frentzen. Or both of them would have been teammates.

Most likely driver combo would have been Schumacher and Wendlinger

#11 Nathan

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 20:55

That first race in South Africa was really impressive - far more so than Haas this season.

"Far" more? Was it even more? I don't believe so. In their first 6 races (12 starts) Sauber had 9 DNFs. A 4th and 5th is pretty good, but the 5th place was also the last of the finishing cars with a Minardi finishing 4th, which tells us the quality of the finishers. The 4th place finish saw the retirement of two-thirds of the grid, most of them the front runners. So yes, kudos to Sauber being reliable enough 2 out of 12 starting cars to score points each time, but the positions were not really on merit.

Edited by Nathan, 29 May 2016 - 21:48.

#12 Fozzy

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 21:27

That first race in South Africa was really impressive - far more so than Haas this season.
 
"Far" more? Was it even more? I don't believe so.  In their first 6 races (12 starts)  Sauber had 9 DNFs.  A 4th and 5th is pretty good, but the 5th place was also the last of the finishing cars with a Minardi finishing 4th, which tells us the quality of the finishers.  The 4th place finisher saw the retirement of two-thirds of the grid, most of them the front runners.  So yes, kudos to Sauber being reliable enough 2 out of 12 starting cars to score points each time, but the positions were not really on merit.

 

"To finish first, first you have to finish"! Ok, so maybe Sauber didn't exactly finish in the points on merit, but they did finish when others failed to do so! Cant grudge them that!

#13 Nathan

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 21:47

You're right, but I can't find the validity in the quoted claim. In Oz Haas beat both Force India's and Toro Rossa's, in Bahrain they finished ahead of both Williams. In each of those races only 2 more competitive cars DNF'd. It's not like half of the top 10 cars didn't finish as with Sauber.

Edited by Nathan, 29 May 2016 - 21:48.

#14 Myrvold

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 22:42

"Far" more? Was it even more? I don't believe so. In their first 6 races (12 starts) Sauber had 9 DNFs. A 4th and 5th is pretty good, but the 5th place was also the last of the finishing cars with a Minardi finishing 4th, which tells us the quality of the finishers. The 4th place finish saw the retirement of two-thirds of the grid, most of them the front runners. So yes, kudos to Sauber being reliable enough 2 out of 12 starting cars to score points each time, but the positions were not really on merit.

A totally different time when it comes to reliability though. Cannot be compared.

#15 Imperial

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 23:23

I have seen a couple of photos dated 1992, but must say I always assumed them to be standard 'winter testing' fare, i.e. that they did a couple of days in late 1992 somewhere.

I've never heard of a 'season of testing'. As in...they tested over a full year?

Who financed it? Who were the drivers?

#16 EvilPhil II

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Posted 30 May 2016 - 00:53

They did qualify in the top 6 though in that first race I believe and were certainly 5th and 6th in the first 2 corners. Ahead of Benetton and both Ferraris - so it was hardly luck.

#17 sopa

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Posted 31 May 2016 - 08:00

If Sauber and Mercedes were a full works team, I have to say Michael Schumacher would have went to the original Sauber Mercedes F1 team. I don't think Benetton or Ferrari would have been in the cards. Either Michael or Heinz Harold Frentzen. Or both of them would have been teammates.

I sometimes wonder if Schumacher and Frentzen as team-mates was ever on the cards in F1...

#18 Eff One 2002

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Posted 31 May 2016 - 08:20

I have always thought that Sauber had an incredible debut season in 1993, beating more establish teams like Minardi, Tyrrell, Lotus, Footwork and Jordan. Similar to that of Jordan themselves in 1991. No other new team even came close to matching them until Stewart in 1997, and even that effort doesn't measure up.

#19 Viryfan

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Posted 31 May 2016 - 08:44

I have seen a couple of photos dated 1992, but must say I always assumed them to be standard 'winter testing' fare, i.e. that they did a couple of days in late 1992 somewhere.

I've never heard of a 'season of testing'. As in...they tested over a full year?

Who financed it? Who were the drivers?

Jean Louis Schlesser drove the car in 1992.

#20 lustigson

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Posted 31 May 2016 - 09:54

I was fully aware of the Mercedes story — planning for an F1 entry with Sauber, but in the end not going through; hence the 'Concept by Mercedes-Benz' statement on the cars — but it is new to me, too, that Sauber spent the 1992 season testing.

The Sauber website states (emphasis mine):

In January 1992 he took the plunge, and by autumn the first tests in the C12 were under way, with an Ilmor engine providing power

This indicates that the season wasn't spent testing, but likely designing and building the C12 cars.

#21 EvilPhil II

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Posted 31 May 2016 - 09:56

Yes I noticed that too. Yet I have seen footage of Sauber at the venue of the German GP that year, Hockenheim, testing their car with yellow wing end plates.

Update: That test appears to have taken place around the 24th July 1992.

Edited by EvilPhil II, 31 May 2016 - 10:04.

#22 lustigson

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Posted 31 May 2016 - 09:58

Yes I noticed that too. Yet I have seen footage of Sauber at the venue of the German GP that year testing their car with yellow wing end plates.

Wow, I'd love to see that.

I've had a weak spot for Jordan and Sauber — they were new additions to the grid shortly after I started following F1.

#23 EvilPhil II

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Posted 31 May 2016 - 10:10

Wow, I'd love to see that.

I've had a weak spot for Jordan and Sauber — they were new additions to the grid shortly after I started following F1.

Let's YouTube the s%@t out of this.

#24 F1matt

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Posted 31 May 2016 - 10:38

I think Karl Wendlinger drove the car in 1992 (possibly at San Marino) as well, definitely recall some photos from Autosport at the time with his helmet behind the wheel. As for a full season of testing it will have been funded by Mercedes, dont recall Sauber having any other major sponsors, it might not of been as expensive as it sounds, they had the basis of a very good team from competing in the WEC, Leo Reiss who designed the sportscars designed the F1 car and they had no race program that year having withdrawn from sportscar racing.

Edited by F1matt, 31 May 2016 - 10:40.

#25 EvilPhil II

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Posted 31 May 2016 - 12:21

4Aqsipb.jpg?1

https://twitter.com/...618921919008768

Edited by EvilPhil II, 31 May 2016 - 12:33.

#26 EvilPhil II

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 21:56

So... brilliant stuff... Sauber have come back to me with all the dates and info about the tests.

15.8.92 - Fire-up Sauber C12

1./2.9.92 - Roll-out Sauber C12, Lurcy-Levis

9./10.9.92 - Test Sauber C12, Lurcy-Levis

21./22.9.92 - Test Sauber C12, BCN

23.10.92 - Test Sauber C12, Zweisimmen/CH

29.10./4.11.92 - Test Sauber C12, BCN

18.-20.11.92 - Test Sauber C12, Le Castellet

30.11.-5.12.92 - Test Sauber C12, Estoril

18.-22.12.92 - Test Sauber C12, Le Cast.

12.1.93 - Test Sauber C12, Misano/Italy

25.-29.1.93 - Test Sauber C12, Estoril

15.-18.2.93 - Test Sauber C12, Estoril

14.3.93 - GP Kyalami/SA

#27 EvilPhil II

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 21:57

PS: drivers were Karl Wendlinger, JJ Lehto, Jean-Louis Schlesser

#28 FNG

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 22:50

So... brilliant stuff... Sauber have come back to me with all the dates and info about the tests.

15.8.92 - Fire-up Sauber C12

1./2.9.92 - Roll-out Sauber C12, Lurcy-Levis

9./10.9.92 - Test Sauber C12, Lurcy-Levis

21./22.9.92 - Test Sauber C12, BCN

23.10.92 - Test Sauber C12, Zweisimmen/CH

29.10./4.11.92 - Test Sauber C12, BCN

18.-20.11.92 - Test Sauber C12, Le Castellet

30.11.-5.12.92 - Test Sauber C12, Estoril

18.-22.12.92 - Test Sauber C12, Le Cast.

12.1.93 - Test Sauber C12, Misano/Italy

25.-29.1.93 - Test Sauber C12, Estoril

15.-18.2.93 - Test Sauber C12, Estoril

14.3.93 - GP Kyalami/SA

You gotta love that. Think you would have got a response from Ferrari or Merc or any other top team? That's the charm of the smaller outfits...

#29 noikeee

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Posted 03 June 2016 - 23:12

10/10 top marks for Sauber for that.

#30 Otaku

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 03:03

#31 HaydenFan

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 03:55

If Sauber and Mercedes were a full works team, I have to say Michael Schumacher would have went to the original Sauber Mercedes F1 team. I don't think Benetton or Ferrari would have been in the cards. Either Michael or Heinz Harold Frentzen. Or both of them would have been teammates.

Did McLaren/Mercedes ever try to go after Schumacher? He signed with Ferrari early in the '95 season, but McLaren didn't seem fully behind any of their lineup at the time.

#32 George Costanza

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 04:00

Did McLaren/Mercedes ever try to go after Schumacher? He signed with Ferrari early in the '95 season, but McLaren didn't seem fully behind any of their lineup at the time.

Ron Dennis blamed Schumacher's management team due to specific sponsors, like on his hats.

#33 F1matt

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 08:33

Did McLaren/Mercedes ever try to go after Schumacher? He signed with Ferrari early in the '95 season, but McLaren didn't seem fully behind any of their lineup at the time.

According to Ron Dennis and Schumacher McLaren approached him while he was at Ferrari, at the time Schumacher was at Benneton. McLaren were in transition from an unreliable Peugeot engine to an unreliable Mercedes engine so it was hardly an attractive proposition, but they did have Mika Hakkinen who they had a lot of faith in, and had been on a par with Schumacher in the junior formula.