3996 replies to this topic

[Pro4TLZZ]

https://twitter.com/...556992817758208 Confirmation of fuel upgrade for spa. Ice however only 90% chance

[Mc_Silver]

https://twitter.com/...556992817758208 Confirmation of fuel upgrade for spa. Ice however only 90% chance

I'm 100% sure Honda will bring their new upgraded ICE to Spa. So hopefully 20HP from Honda + 10HP from Mobil 1= 30HP will be gained next race. I expect new aero parts to be introduced there as well. Future is looking bright for McLaren isn't it?

Edited by Mc_Silver, 02 August 2016 - 19:36.

[chhatra]

30bhp should be an easy 0.5 seconds around Spa & Monza. Should also give a couple of tenths at other tracks with the benefit of running more downforce too.

We saw with Red Bull, how much they improved with the Renualt upgrade allowing them to run the car with a better set up.

[Mc_Silver]

If we can fight with Force India and Williams in Spa and Monza I will be more than happy.

[Treads]

Remember how effing awful these races were last year... I am afraid even with an upgraded motor that it will still be awful. Just slightly less awful.

On the plus side Monza will show us where we are. If we totally suck we have full confirmation where our weakness lies and a much better indication how much power we are down.

[stevesingo]

30hp under what conditions?  Qualifying or race?

 

Guessing on the quantity of the upgrade in terms of a bald hp figure is pointless.

 

If they don't increase power, but bring a 10% efficiency saving in race mode, I for one would be happy.  Better that than 30hp in qualifying.

 

These PUs are defined by how much fuel the ice burns for a competitive lap time.  Currently the McHonda is using too much fuel per lap at a competitive pace.  If McHonda were allowed an extra 15kgs of fuel, I suspect they would be just as quick as RBR and Ferrari over a race distance as they would be able to use more of the PU performance more of the time.  Thing is, the aren't allowed and extra 15kg of fuel so, they have to fine 15% improvement in efficiency.

[TomNokoe]

Fuel and ICE... c-c-c-combo!

[CPR]

Remember how effing awful these races were last year... I am afraid even with an upgraded motor that it will still be awful. Just slightly less awful.

On the plus side Monza will show us where we are. If we totally suck we have full confirmation where our weakness lies and a much better indication how much power we are down.

 

Fernando has said it will be tough even with the upgrade.

 

Incidentally, last year we finished Spa 129s behind the leader, and finished Monza 162s behind the leader.

[maguetox]

I'm 100% sure Honda will bring their new upgraded ICE to Spa. So hopefully 20HP from Honda + 10HP from Mobil 1= 30HP will be gained next race. I expect new aero parts to be introduced there as well. Future is looking bright for McLaren isn't it?

 

The increase in HP is important, but more important, IMHO, is that those +HP they can gain with the upgrade can be use all the race due to an improvement in the fuel consumption that is Honda second main weakness. 

 

Personally I'm pretty happy with how things are going right now, definitively with the axe of Arai, and in the incorporation of Hasegawa, the Honda program took a new and better approach to understand and solve the problems of the PU.

[Quickshifter]

Both drivers are due for a new internal combustion engine so i am hoping Honda will bring the upgraded engines to Spa. I think Mclaren will take a double penalty for both drivers in Monza most likely. They will have enough engines to run them  hard till the end of the season. Three power units  for 9 races sounds fun.

Edited by Quickshifter, 02 August 2016 - 21:06.

[CPR]

I've been doing some number crunching on estimating race pace. It's a bit tricky though - not nearly so clean as quali. I did have an old method to do it but I decided that it was flawed. I've created a simple new method which seems to work okay.

 

I have to check some things for bugs still but initial results are interesting: in the first few races we were about 2% slower than Mercedes in the race. It's now down to about 1.5%.

[chhatra]

I've been doing some number crunching on estimating race pace. It's a bit tricky though - not nearly so clean as quali. I did have an old method to do it but I decided that it was flawed. I've created a simple new method which seems to work okay.

I have to check some things for bugs still but initial results are interesting: in the first few races we were about 2% slower than Mercedes in the race. It's now down to about 1.5%.

Its been pretty noticeable watching the last few races that it has improved.

Last year, and the start of this year we were almost always 2 seconds or more slower per lap in the races, which is a rarity now.

The only time we are that much slower is when we have to save fuel or the tires goes off.

Having said that the next two races could see us go back to early season differences.

[blacky]

Both drivers are due for a new internal combustion engine so i am hoping Honda will bring the upgraded engines to Spa. I think Mclaren will take a double penalty for both drivers in Monza most likely. They will have enough engines to run them  hard till the end of the season. Three power units  for 9 races sounds fun.

 

I don't see the necessity of 3 engines/PU for the rest of the season. Honda wants, as seen in this season so far, confirm the realibility of their products and are obivously confident enough to drive them for 5 and recently even 6 races. One engine for Spa, second one for Suzuka (maybe penalty already for Sepang).

[akshat21]

I don't see the necessity of 3 engines/PU for the rest of the season. Honda wants, as seen in this season so far, confirm the realibility of their products and are obivously confident enough to drive them for 5 and recently even 6 races. One engine for Spa, second one for Suzuka (maybe penalty already for Sepang).

 

It would also depend how many tokens Honda spend on the upgrade. If they spend all tokens (which doesn't sound likey), then it would make sense to add a few engines to the kitty in Monza or Spa, where either they may still not do too well (even with the upgrade) or they feel that they can make up positions during the race. 

[David1976]

Its going to need to be a sizable upgrade as Mercedes have not yet revealed their hand with a big token spend.

[Aeonax]

About future PU upgrades:


Remember that Hasegawa and the drivers have stated that it´ll be implemented in stages.

- First stage was completed with Silverstone upgrade; focus was to recover some of the loss power due the new TC redesign (Canada) and maximise the ERS and combustion efficency.

 

- Second stage is due for Spa/Monza (hopefully Spa!) and its aimed to provide raw power  via ICE combustion changes+ new fuel spec. Hasegawa and Nakamura have been quoted (Via Muramasa) stating that this next upgrade focus is soley performance/power output. Also keep in mind that it´ll be our 3rd fuel spec of the season out of 4 planned.

- Third and final upgrade is supposed to happened between the last 3 races and its, again rumored, to be yet another improvement of the ERS systems.

After the 2nd stage upgrades are honed, it´ll cascade unto the whole package. Better fuel efficency --- > Increased race pace. More raw power will allow further Chasis gains --- > Better downforce levels ----> tyre life management

Hell! Even the drivers and the team as a whole should net us some extra "tenths" due to increased morale and motivation

The only thing that could "ground" my expectations right now is if Mercedes next upgrades puts them even further away...

#CautiouslyOptimistic
#BelieveInMclarenHonda

[Owen]

Its going to need to be a sizable upgrade as Mercedes have not yet revealed their hand with a big token spend.

We're not looking at overhauling Mercedes this year and have no hope of challenging them this year, even with effective upgrades in place.
Just to manage some expectations there!

[Quickshifter]

I don't see the necessity of 3 engines/PU for the rest of the season. Honda wants, as seen in this season so far, confirm the realibility of their products and are obivously confident enough to drive them for 5 and recently even 6 races. One engine for Spa, second one for Suzuka (maybe penalty already for Sepang).

 

Monza is the toughest race on the calendar even with an upgraded engine. Makes sense to take a double penalty there. Honda have tested reliability on their various power units already and with more power unit elements at their disposal they have the luxury of either pushing those engines really hard.  They may not even choose to race the additional engine but it is nice to have a backup for a situation like Alonso's engine malfunctioning in Hungary FP1 and Button's engine failing in Canada FP1.

Edited by Quickshifter, 03 August 2016 - 09:21.

[loki0420]

So when are we anticipating next upgrade after Spa? Were there any rumours they could be ready for Malaysia prior to Japan GP? I will certainly think this way as Honda were always setting home GP as target for improvement. In this case i guess they'll obviously should take single penalty in Monza or even no penalty - there's just 3 races before Malaysia where they could take double penalty and have PUs for the rest of the season.

 

Of course maybe timeframe will not be enough for Malaysia in which case it would be penalty in Monza and USA considering they'll want and have enough tokens to introduce any updates after Spa.

[CPR]

Monza is the toughest race on the calendar even with an upgraded engine. Makes sense to take a double penalty there. Honda have tested reliability on their various power units already and with more power unit elements at their disposal they have the luxury of either pushing those engines really hard.  They may not even choose to race the additional engine but it is nice to have a backup for a situation like Alonso's engine malfunctioning in Hungary FP1 and Button's engine failing in Canada FP1.

 

Hasegawa has said it's likely that the Spa upgrade will not be the last. If the token upgrades after that require fresh PU elements (quite possible) then the team would take additional penalties. So there's not much point taking penalties at Monza when we'll have to take some again later in the season anyway.

[CPR]

We're not looking at overhauling Mercedes this year and have no hope of challenging them this year, even with effective upgrades in place.
Just to manage some expectations there!

 

Hehe. Actually, last night I was thinking to myself "Hmm, there's way too much optimism here!"

 

We're certainly not racing Mercedes this year... but it would be nice to see the gap close some more, particularly on the PU side. We've been lapped at nearly every race this year - it would be nice if turn that around so that we're almost never lapped in the rest of the season.

[Owen]

Hehe. Actually, last night I was thinking to myself "Hmm, there's way too much optimism here!"
 
We're certainly not racing Mercedes this year... but it would be nice to see the gap close some more, particularly on the PU side. We've been lapped at nearly every race this year - it would be nice if turn that around so that we're almost never lapped in the rest of the season.

Definitely. And all bets are off for 2017. :-)

[CommanderShepard]

So has it been enstablished that Fernando's FP1 Hungary engine is useless?

[trogggy]

So has it been enstablished that Fernando's FP1 Hungary engine is useless?

There are so many jokes I could make.

Must resist.

[Rinehart]

With regards to my forecast that Honda will catch up on peak power rather than efficiency first, it's simply based on the premise that peak power (let's define as headline quoted max power capability, possible at a given moment) is easier to achieve, than the best efficiency over 1000kms (5 races per engine). No more scientific than that.

I would like to add that I consider Mercedes strength in the area of efficiency to be generally underrated/understood compared to their headline grabbing apparent power advantage.

hypothetically If a car can start with 10% less fuel it can theoretically be 0.5 seconds per lap faster at the start with less fuel weight penalty. Or fill it up and it has that extra power to convert for the same capacity through efficiency.

[chhatra]

http://www.motorspor...pec-car-804825/

Toro Rosso introduced quite a huge package in Germany, yet McLaren were still ahead.

If they manage to beat us in Spa or Monza IMO, it will be proof that the 2015 engine is still comparable to the Honda one.

3.5 weeks to go! 😃😠😠

[tkulla]

With regards to my forecast that Honda will catch up on peak power rather than efficiency first, it's simply based on the premise that peak power (let's define as headline quoted max power capability, possible at a given moment) is easier to achieve, than the best efficiency over 1000kms (5 races per engine). No more scientific than that.
I would like to add that I consider Mercedes strength in the area of efficiency to be generally underrated/understood compared to their headline grabbing apparent power advantage.
hypothetically If a car can start with 10% less fuel it can theoretically be 0.5 seconds per lap faster at the start with less fuel weight penalty. Or fill it up and it has that extra power to convert for the same capacity through efficiency.

I suspect peak power is easier to achieve. It also provides fewer benefits. But one area it should help is qualifying, where having to carry a little bit more fuel in order to use a thirsty but powerful engine mode is no big deal.

[Risil]

Posts removed. Please keep your contributions to the topic of McLaren's car and Honda's engine.

 

If you think that some members are taking the thread off-topic or are posting unreasonably, please report them to the moderating team.

[CPR]

http://www.motorspor...lopment-805003/
 

Racing director Eric Boullier said: "There will still be some car developments after the shutdown.

"Every development we are doing is obviously applicable to next year's car, so we focus on this and on next year's car."

No real info though.

 

It's not clear but I guess he means that the developments will be new/ongoing rather than simply completing work started some time ago.

[CPR]

http://www.motorspor...pec-car-804825/

Toro Rosso introduced quite a huge package in Germany, yet McLaren were still ahead.

If they manage to beat us in Spa or Monza IMO, it will be proof that the 2015 engine is still comparable to the Honda one.

3.5 weeks to go!

 

The article calls it a "B-spec" but if you take all the changes McLaren introduce over (say) 5 GPs it would probably be about the same

 

Regarding STR, maybe they weren't able to get the most out of it? They tend to be stronger at "aero" tracks as well, so Spa might suit their package more.

 

Regarding the German GP in general, I wonder how much the tires affected the relative standings - we've not had many races this year with 3 pit stops, and that might have made the race less PU dependant than might have been expected. I also get the feeling that some people looked at Fernando's problems right at the very end and concluded certain things about the PU rather than looking at the overall result in context - as I posted last night, it was actually one of our best races of the year, if we consider the race pace gap to Mercedes.

Edited by CPR, 03 August 2016 - 15:05.

[Pro4TLZZ]

http://www.thebestf1...nzar-a-ferrari/

The Ecuador of the season has come to Formula 1 and the holidays too. The teams close their factories for their workers to rest before returning for the final part of the season in good shape. On the one hand, if we review so far this season McLaren-Honda , we see has experienced a clear improvement over 2015 thanks in part to a better chassis and aerodynamics but above all, a power unit Honda much more advanced . For proof of this, Eric Boullier , team manager of Woking, recently declared that the chassis of the MP4-31 is already up to the car of the Scuderia Ferrari. In addition, the team is in seventh place in the Constructors ' Championship just three points Toro Rosso.
As for the Japanese power unit, improving this season it is not over yet, since still have 12 tokens to evolve the engine. As if that were not enough, since Honda promise to utilize all available tokens to reach the level of Ferrari for the final part of the season and finish as the third force in the world. Undoubtedly, good letters by the Japanese to start fighting for the world title next season.
There is talk of two important developments in the power unit Honda. The first of them is expected to arrive in the first race after the summer break, in Spa-Francorchamps , with the idea of getting to be at a similar level to that of Williams and definitely settle in the points. the second and latest developments come in the home race for Honda in the Japanese Grand Prix in Suzuka , completing engine improvement and achieving catch Ferrari mechanic level .

[CPR]

I don't see the necessity of 3 engines/PU for the rest of the season. Honda wants, as seen in this season so far, confirm the realibility of their products and are obivously confident enough to drive them for 5 and recently even 6 races. One engine for Spa, second one for Suzuka (maybe penalty already for Sepang).

 

Certainly there shouldn't be a "need" for the team to use 3 PUs per driver over the remaining 9 races, and 2 PUs each should be enough. On the other hand, given that the PU isn't especially reliable yet there is a strong risk that one or more of the PUs would expire sooner than expected which would then incur another penalty. So if we're going to take a penalty for certain at Sepang (or wherever), then taking a double-penalty for some extra insurance (and probably performance and opportunity for development) would be nice.

 

A part of me does also want to see two fingers raised to the rules that insist on making various parts last multiple GPs in the name of cost cutting   

[BillBald]

The article calls it a "B-spec" but if you take all the changes McLaren introduce over (say) 5 GPs it would probably be about the same

 

Regarding STR, maybe they weren't able to get the most out of it? They tend to be stronger at "aero" tracks as well, so Spa might suit their package more.

 

Regarding the German GP in general, I wonder how much the tires affected the relative standings - we've not had many races this year with 3 pit stops, and that might have made the race less PU dependant than might have been expected. I also get the feeling that some people looked at Fernando's problems right at the very end and concluded certain things about the PU rather than looking at the overall result in context - as I posted last night, it was actually one of our best races of the year, if we consider the race pace gap to Mercedes.

 

It looks to me as though McLaren got quite a boost from the change the FIA made re measuring tyre pressures.

 

I don't quite understand why 3-stopping would make the race less PU dependent. But getting the strategy right was obviously worth a lot.

[Quickshifter]

You know there is so much momentum in this team at the moment. Aero upgrade, fuel upgrade and engine upgrade all at once in Spa. So going by recent reports there are going to be two engine updates, one at Spa and another at Suzuka. We don't know how much of this is true though. One thing is certain that the  chassis and engine are heading in the right direction. If honda get their act together, come the start of 2017 season we will be starting  ahead of Ferrari.

Edited by Quickshifter, 03 August 2016 - 17:28.

[TomNokoe]

A Suzuka upgrade would be something to really look forward to.

[CommanderShepard]

This year we did surprisingly well at circuits that didn't suppose to suit us, and relatively badly at circuits where we supposed to do well. So I'm gonna out on a limb, and say that we are going to finish P9 and P11, with a Force India between us.

Edited by CommanderShepard, 03 August 2016 - 17:50.

[loki0420]

A Suzuka upgrade would be something to really look forward to.

Either this update won't require any component change or it won't happen. Highly doubt they'll accept grip drop at home race.

[CPR]

Malaysian GP is week before, so they should be able to take the penalty there rather than at Japan.

[f1paul]

A Suzuka upgrade would be something to really look forward to.

No more GP2 engines, eh

[MrRat]

http://www.motorspor...pec-car-804825/

Toro Rosso introduced quite a huge package in Germany, yet McLaren were still ahead.

If they manage to beat us in Spa or Monza IMO, it will be proof that the 2015 engine is still comparable to the Honda one.

3.5 weeks to go!

 

the thing is Spa still needs to good Aero. Monza is a much better indicator.

[rabbitleader]

Either this update won't require any component change or it won't happen. Highly doubt they'll accept grip drop at home race.

PU upgrade at Sepang, the GP prior to Suzuka then perhaps?

Edited by rabbitleader, 03 August 2016 - 20:18.

[alpes]

I suspect peak power is easier to achieve. It also provides fewer benefits. But one area it should help is qualifying, where having to carry a little bit more fuel in order to use a thirsty but powerful engine mode is no big deal.

If we keep present that peak power is achieved with a fuel flow rate of 100 kg/h then I think increasing peak power means increasing efficiency.
In my eyes they are closely related and pose the same challenge to improve

[loki0420]

PU upgrade at Sepang, the GP prior to Suzuka then perhaps?

I would like it to be true. But in that case there will be just one month difference so maybe not that big upgrade.

[CPR]

Shiny new chart (or at least new algorithm for the race pace estimate which I've not shown in a long time):



I mentioned this last night. I spent a while tweaking things today. Seems to be okay though there's probably a few oddball results at some races.

 

It's quite a simple algorithm (way way simpler than previous version, haha): simply compare the average lap time for all "meaningful" laps in the race. So what's a meaningful lap? Basically, everything except the first lap (sometimes first 2 laps depending on how slowly field spread kicks in), laps under SC or restarts. Sometimes I've excluded VSC laps. So for the German GP, it's every lap except the first few. For the race in Austria, it's every lap except for the first few and the SC period when Vettel's tyre blew. This doesn't attempt to normalise pit stops or anything like that, so a bad pit stop or penalty pit stop is counted as is.

 

Bit hard to say why Austria was so good for us. It's not the short lap since these are percentage differences. The SC did help but even before then it was going well. Also hard to say why Canada was so bad - we did have too much drag and tire strategy was rather extreme but was that just it?

[balmybaldwin]

I think it was the short lap that helped.

 

They are limited in recovery from MGU-K, and Overall deployment in a lap.  Therefore a shorter lap means more KJ per km can be deployed. IF the problem is we can't run in a self sustain mode (no battery deployment MGU H feeds K directly) as long or as powerfully as others then a shorter lap would naturally bring the Honda closer to the Merc (provided batteries could still be filled via mgu-k)

[Rinehart]

the thing is Spa still needs to good Aero. Monza is a much better indicator.

It's the lap length that puts such a premium on ICE power and efficiency at Spa because you only have so much deploy capacity per lap.

[Disgrace]

Part V.