27 replies to this topic

[Vettelari]

Even though WEC teams do not officially announce their budgets, recent articles and interviews have given estimates that fall in line with each other for the 2016 season.

Audi - 250 M
Porsche - 250 M
Toyota - 150 M

That is less than the big F1 teams as a whole, but their budgets are for merely 9 races.

If they spent an equal amount on a per race basis, Audi & Porsche would have a budget of 582.5 M and Toyota at 349.5 M. That would place Audi and VW ahead of any other F1 team's budget by 114.5 M. Toyota would be 68 M behind Ferrari and 163.5 M ahead of Williams. Looking at it on a per race basis makes me wonder if WEC can be justified as an investment.

Even if Audi/VW merged into a single F1 team, they would have a larger budget than any other F1 team with 500 M.

I don't understand how they can justify spending so much on a racing series that is not even close to the popularity of F1 except for 1 race. The exposure from all 21 F1 races would far outweigh the marketing advantage if we are assuming similar budgets.

I don't understand how everyone uses the same "F1 is too expensive to join" excuse, while they spend fortunes on other saving series.

What is going so horribly wrong here? Why are Toyota, Audi, and VW more than happy to spend so much on WEC while never even giving F1 a thought.

What needs to change to make F1 so much more attractive than WEC that nobody would ever consider spending fortunes on another series.

Do you think it is about not wanting to pay for and build a PU? By combining Audi and Porsche's budgets, they could buy their engine from Renault at first and absolutely give RBR a run for their money, IMO.

I guess my major point is, I understand why BMW isn't entering F1. They do not want to spend the money and aren't participating in any major motorsports.

VW and Toyota complain about expenses while spending more than the majority of F1 teams in a less popular/watched series. It is so frustrating.

F1 budgets...
http://m.crash.net/f...pends-most.html

Edited by Vettelari, 19 June 2016 - 05:57.

[Marklar]

Well you can also size it down to how many hours they are racing. In a F1 year you have around 32 h racing. WEC 72 h.

WEC is definetely a better investment as they can much more freely develop, which is generally a benefit for mfrs

[Vettelari]

Good point. Thanks for the reply. I just wish F1 were the obvious option for companies like these.

[Vettelari]

So is the answer opening up development in F1 to the level of WEC? Would that bring on more manufactures or cause current ones to pull out?

I am of the opinion that F1 NEEDS BMW, VW, and Toyota to join in the next 10 years for the sport long term stability and everything should be done to entice them to enter. Rip up the regulations and come up with something that'll attract the manufacturers that are being lost to WEC and Formula E.

[Vettelari]

In just the last year, Formula 1 could have lost Sauber, Lotus, Manor, and FI due to finances and RBR/STR to engine gate.

That is half of the grid. Would have absolutely killed the sport beyond repair, in my opinion. That's a scary thought and should NEVER be even a remote possibility.

In the same time period, rumors are that Honda is joining WEC. Formula E is gaining Jaguar and BMW (likely). It's a bad sign when the big boys are deciding to spend money on motorsports but F1 isn't even considered.

Maybe I am the only one worrying, but thinking about the current health of F1 scares the heck out of me.

Edited by Vettelari, 19 June 2016 - 06:18.

[Victor_RO]

Depends very much on what teams/manufacturers want out of the sport. The problem with F1 nowadays is a lack of foresight and vision, see teams still bickering about regulations that will come into effect next year. Meanwhile, on Thursday morning, the ACO held their annual press conference at Le Mans and they set out a roadmap for LMP1 regulations all the way to 2030 (!!!), with some elements mentioned there that are sure to capture the interest of parties like BMW and Honda (for example a view towards having the fastest LMP cars in 2030 all powered by HYDROGEN!)

 

And just to illustrate a major element of why manufacturers choose WEC for road relevance, Toyota's WEC budget is now allocated straight from the budget for road car R&D.

[Ben1445]

LMP1

[Nonesuch]

What is going so horribly wrong here? Why are Toyota, Audi, and VW more than happy to spend so much on WEC while never even giving F1 a thought.

 

F1 doesn't offer what they want out of their motorsport activities? At the end of the day, it's just business.

 

What do you think F1 offers that large car companies should wish to be a part of?

[FredF1]

Don't forget the politics angle. Why invest billions in F1 only to see whatever advantage you have wiped out because Bernie wants to make a quick buck or needs to keep another team onside.

[HistoryFan]

F1: 4 manufactures

LMP1: 3 manufactures

 

So the answer is clear: Both series are not very good to invest.

 

But F1 is a bit better as there is more to get out of marketing.

[Caboose]

VW and Toyota complain about expenses while spending more than the majority of F1 teams in a less popular/watched series. It is so frustrating.

F1 budgets...
http://m.crash.net/f...pends-most.html

 

They spend that much to win the WEC and Le Mans. With those budget, they would barely be in the also competing category in F1...

 

And Toyota was in F1 only a few years back and they spend more than any other and didn't even get one victory for all that money...

[DeKnyff]

If I was a financial investor, I'd probably go for WEC.

 

However, as a racing fan, I still believe F1 is one thousand times more fun to watch.

 

WEC is interesting and I enjoy it, but I think it's more suitable for reading about it than watching, since there is little on-track action. I liked it more in the past, when the lack of reliability made races more eventful.

[DeKnyff]

Don't forget the politics angle. Why invest billions in F1 only to see whatever advantage you have wiped out because Bernie wants to make a quick buck or needs to keep another team onside.

 

Well, in my opinion politics is one of the most fascinating things about F1. The sport would be dead boring without all the drama around it.

[DeKnyff]

So is the answer opening up development in F1 to the level of WEC? Would that bring on more manufactures or cause current ones to pull out?

I am of the opinion that F1 NEEDS BMW, VW, and Toyota to join in the next 10 years for the sport long term stability and everything should be done to entice them to enter. Rip up the regulations and come up with something that'll attract the manufacturers that are being lost to WEC and Formula E.

 

The sport has been doing OK for more than 50 years without manufacturers, despite being chronically unstable. You can not count on them for long term stability, since they come and go depending on marketing decisions, budget allocations, financial results, cuts on jobs and so on.

 

Apart from that, the sport must be bigger than its teams, not the other way round.

[chrisPB15]

Well, in my opinion politics is one of the most fascinating things about F1. The sport would be dead boring without all the drama around it.

 

This is true, but when drivers get involved in politics or silly arguments they are universally hated for the rest of their careers. Mansell, Prost and Senna would all be playing politics chess, Mansell normally losing out, people forget that Senna was quite disliked back in the day and Mansell was within the sport.

Today people now look back with a certain amount of admiration when Mansell stormed into offices and banged his fist on the table to het things done.

 

Some of the dated politics, such as the favours and entitlement Ferrari are afforded by default is quite distasteful though

Edited by chrisPB15, 19 June 2016 - 10:53.

[Dolph]

I think Porsche has always been a traditional sportscar & Le Mans oriented motrosports company. Its their DNA.

 

Audi has just found a place where to dominate cheapely for 10-15 years at Le Mans.

 

Toyota has a history at Le Mans as well.

 

I think the perspective of budgets is a very good one. However, we must also consider what it brings. You can easily spend a lot of money like Toyota did in 2001-2009 and come away with nothing. At the moment Renault is in F1, spending money and is a laughing stock (they'll rise from that, I'm sure).

 

I looking back Audi could have spent 15 years in F1 and maybe win a few races or even a title (unlikely), but instead they have a gazillion Le Mans wins. I think the later is better.

[ArnageWRC]

Good point. Thanks for the reply. I just wish F1 were the obvious option for companies like these.

 

Why??  I don't. Motorsport doesn't revolve around F1, despite people thinking so. There's loads of series out there for manufacturers to look at.

 

F1 is appallingly run, governed, etc Why would you want to enter in its current guise?

[Ross Stonefeld]

For a starters those budgets are completely off. Toyota isn't spending 1/3 of that unless they've built a bank vault in Cologne. 

 

 

I think the calculus is different. You do F1 for the TV, WEC for the image. You can write it off as more of an R&D exercise that happens to be a race car viewed in public.

 

Reading various British newspapers I see way more F1 coverage(the only series that's covered) and way more LMP1 manufacturer advertisements(the only racing companies that really buy any advertisements in traditional media). 

[hittheapex]

Even if the budgets were the same per race or per hour of racing, in F1 the drivers are the stars. At Le Mans, the manufacturers get more coverage. In F1, people are generally more loyal to drivers than to teams.

 

WEC also has a better idea of where it is going and looks more organised than F1 does at the moment. How is a manufacturer supposed to take F1 seriously and put together a two to three year plan to enter when rules are being changed on a whim? Contrast that to the 90s up to 2004 where F1 didn't go from one radical regulation change to another every few years. We had as many manufacturers involved in 2003 in F1 alone as F1 and LMP1 put together now.

[Kalmake]

In just the last year, Formula 1 could have lost Sauber, Lotus, Manor, and FI due to finances and RBR/STR to engine gate.

That is half of the grid. Would have absolutely killed the sport beyond repair, in my opinion. That's a scary thought and should NEVER be even a remote possibility.

In the same time period, rumors are that Honda is joining WEC. Formula E is gaining Jaguar and BMW (likely). It's a bad sign when the big boys are deciding to spend money on motorsports but F1 isn't even considered.

Maybe I am the only one worrying, but thinking about the current health of F1 scares the heck out of me.

In LMP1 that half of the grid isn't there to begin with and privateers are practically in a different class.

Edited by Kalmake, 19 June 2016 - 12:33.

[Risil]

I don't think either are particularly good investments if you want your returns in money.

[superden]

WEC, by a mile.

[JHSingo]

Good point. Thanks for the reply. I just wish F1 were the obvious option for companies like these.

Why? There's more to the world of motorsport than just F1.

I'm glad that there are alternatives, and that we get to see manufacturer presence in a mix of different series, rather than them all being in F1.

[Kalmake]

WEC, by a mile.

If WEC is so much better as an investment, why are there only two three manufacturers in it?

 

Both are a good if you can win. In general, everyone else will be making a loss.

[realracer200]

In Formula 1 is a better investment. Most people who don't follow motorsport still know who Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso are, I don't know if that can be said about the endurance champioship.

[Diablobb81]

Depends if you are Toyota or McLaren.

[AlexLangheck]

For a starters those budgets are completely off. Toyota isn't spending 1/3 of that unless they've built a bank vault in Cologne. 
 
 
I think the calculus is different. You do F1 for the TV, WEC for the image. You can write it off as more of an R&D exercise that happens to be a race car viewed in public.
 
Reading various British newspapers I see way more F1 coverage(the only series that's covered) and way more LMP1 manufacturer advertisements(the only racing companies that really buy any advertisements in traditional media).

As mentioned during the race on RLM, Toyota R&D now provide the budget for their WEC and WRC programmes. It's still nowhere near what the VW Group teams budgets.

[Nathan]

 

WEC is definetely a better investment as they can much more freely develop, which is generally a benefit for mfrs

hmmm....  I would then suggest it is more beneficial for manufacture to take that $200 mln they spend on racing and instead put it into production based R&D.  They could invest more into direct R&D because they don't have to pay racing costs that have nothing to do with R&D.  For the cost to run an LMP car 100,000 miles I imagine you can run production based test mules millions and millions of miles, and I really question how applicable LMP Hybrid technology is to road car technology.  Toyota is probably the road car leader in hybrid technology, and racing provided almost nothing to becoming so.  How hybrid tech is applied in racing is very different to how you use it on the road, and the materials used in LMP1 hybrids is not something you are going to see in a $25,000 Prius.

 

 

If they spent an equal amount on a per race basis

This isn't a very logical way to look at it because much of those costs are fixed, regardless if they did 1 race or 20. 

 

 

Maybe I am the only one worrying, but thinking about the current health of F1 scares the heck out of me.

How is WEC any healthier?  It has less manufacturer involvement, and WEC privateers seem to have less chance for success.  TV viewership doesn't even compare.  No privateer WEC team is going to get sponsorship comparable to what Williams or Force India can muster.  There is no commercial support similar to FOM prize money.  The sheer fact there are almost no privateer teams in LMP1 shows how far less viable it is for non-manufactures. F1 has 8 privateer teams to 5 LMP1 teams total, 3 of which are car makers.  No one talks about how WEC LMP1 has one less privateer team in 2016...  One-third of the WEC privateers left after 2015, but that isn't worrisome?? No one is questioning LMP1 health afterwards? Good grief...

 

 

Why invest billions in F1 only to see whatever advantage you have wiped out because Bernie wants to make a quick buck or needs to keep another team onside.

It is different in WEC?  BOP in GT is a joke.   ACO rigs rules to push specific technologies that means if you don't have nine-figure budgets you won't be competing outright at Le Mans.  For how many years if you didn't have a need to push diesel technology was there no point going to Le Mans? And what value does being WEC champion have?  How many iterations of prototype and GT world championships have we had in the last 20 years? F1 looks far more stable both from championship and team involvement perspectives.  But all this only makes sense if you remove your blinders and F1/Bernie hate.

Le Mans is less risk, but also less reward marketing wise.  F1 is the opposite.  In theory Le Mans offers a manufacture the ability tailor their technological application to what they are doing with their road cars, but the reality is if another manufacturer has a more successful approach for the race track then you either copy it, or you sit and let your approach look inferior.

If you are a car maker wanting to develop and promote technology that is currently en vogue with ACO, then do Le Mans.  If you are mostly in it for the marketing F1 is a no-brainer.  I could be wrong, but to me it seems only Europe and Japan really cares about Le Mans.  F1 is far more global.

Edited by Nathan, 19 June 2016 - 16:29.