164 replies to this topic

[vactrac]

You could combine this sub-thread with the Nostalgia Forum sub-thread about Stefano Modena and ask him about racing the Honda V10 in the 1991 Tyrrell against the Honda V12 in the McLaren!

[TennisUK]

I got the impression that Honda's V12 was about vanity more than anything else...

[Fat Boy]

Why did Ferrari's engineers choose 12 cylinder engines for the 3 Litre era in F1? 12 by 250cc piston engines consumed more oil and petrol than a Repco or Cosworth -- but delivered a few more revs. Very expensive revs.

 

Because they have a sound so beautiful it would bring a tear to the eye of Pavarotti.

[Greg Locock]

I remember when Lotus switched from V8s (?) to Lambo V12s, they did a few laps at Hethel and half the workforce wandered out to have a listen.

[PayasYouRace]

Good question. Think in hindsight that was a real mistake, especially given their success with the V10 in 89/90. I recall Senna not being terribly impressed with the Honda V12 in 1991?

The only V12 to win the F1 championship as far as I know.

[gruntguru]

The only V12 to win the F1 championship as far as I know.

I know its ancient history but what about '79, '77, '75?

[RacingGreen]

The 1969 Spanish Grand Prix saw both Lotus' have wing failures. At the following race (Monaco) cars were made to cut their wings down / take them off. They should never have been allowed back on.

 

F1's biggest blunder? - aerodynamics. It stops cars running together so limits overtaking. 

 

More mechanical grip - less Aero you know it makes sense.

[RacingGreen]

I know its ancient history but what about '79, '77, '75?

Wasn't the Ferrari a flat 12 not a V 12 ? 

 

Was it a shallow V ?

Edited by RacingGreen, 04 March 2017 - 17:38.

[Peter0Scandlyn]

Continuing to cling to Charlie Whiting Esquire.

[gruntguru]

Wasn't the Ferrari a flat 12 not a V 12 ? 

 

Was it a shallow V ?

You are right - flat 12.

[Ali_G]

V12s were being looked at by Toyota(and Cosworth) but the FIA said everyone on V10s(and everyone was, except for maybe Minardi still sucking wind with an old V8) to keep costs under *some* control. Given they were still insane in the early 00s.

V12s were an outlier anyways, as HaydenFan said. Someone might have flirted with them again and wasted a ton of money and had not much more than sound to show for it. Sound is nice and all, but it's a race not a concert.

The FIA banned them out of panic and after Toyota had already ploughed millions into the development of a V12. Their banning was the reason Toyota entered a year later than originally anticipated.

Given the rev war at the time, the assumption was that V12 was indeed the way to go.

[PlayboyRacer]

The only V12 to win the F1 championship as far as I know.

Fair point. However I think Senna was onto something, given the rate Williams Renault closed them down and ultimately blew them away (1992). For sure the engine wasn't the only factor in that but the Honda V12 wasn't the class leading engine for long, I've always thought McLaren were slightly fortunate in 1991 with Williams and their niggling issues helping no end.

[jcbc3]

The confusion stems from the fact that English use the term flat engine for two different concepts.

 

There are 180 degree V-engines and Boxer engines.

 

https://www.autoevol...gine-85305.html

 

So the question is if the Ferrari engines of the seventies were one or the other?

[PayasYouRace]

The Ferrari flat 12s were not boxers. They were the 180 V type, but that's just a way of describing the piston, crank and firing design. It's still a flat engine. In the context of a single seater of the time, the engine's centre of gravity, shape and size are much more relevant than it's internals. Calling those Ferraris flat 12s tells you much more about that car.

I wonder if anyone's ever built a non 180 degree boxer. Probably would put a lot of unbalanced force on the crankshaft with both cylinders firing together.

[ray b]

How many cars did Ferrari sell in 1966? Who paid for racing as trade sponsors? Why didn't they go bust?
 
The 12 cylinder Ferrari association is a 1970s marketing myth to sell expensive road cars. At that time, the most successful Ferrari F1 cars, historically, would have been fours or sixes. In the early 1970s, the V12 Ferraris weren't very good and there hadn't been a 12 cylinder Ferrari single seater for 15+ years.

they had the motors 3l v12 were off the shelf item for them
that had years of development in sportscars and P-car racing
funding was starting money+oil gas tyre deals were the big money sponsors
teams were small and drivers worked cheap vs today