98 replies to this topic

[sabrejet]

Another Friday FoS done and an excellent show again, despite the mud. Also miraculously few hold-ups in the runs.

 

However, I am prompted to ask - at the risk of getting a sniffy or stuffy response - why the British Hill Climb Championship runners were yet again ignored?

 

We now have Time Attack and Drift cars as regular elements of the show, along with other runners from our national championships (BTCC, GT, rally etc), so what is going on here?

 

Can't be that they'd be too fast surely? I can't imagine that top speeds would be not much more than the current quick runners.

 

I have heard rumblings that BHC competitors would somehow be overawed by the occasion and overstretch themselves: the latter most likely the response from those who haven't been to a hill climb, and also deeply disrespectful.

 

It can't be that the BHC cars would somehow not be able to 'cope' with the hill. In fact I always laugh when FoS drivers and riders comment on how 'narrow/challenging' the hill is: take a look at Doune (or Google some of the onboard camera footage) to see what 'narrow/challenging' really means.

 

And even if all of the above are somehow a justification for excluding this most eligible group of cars & drivers from Britain's biggest hill climb - couldn't we at least have a few select entries to do demonstration runs?

 

Anyone care to comment?  

[Dick Dastardly]

There was a thread on this last year or 2 years ago.....in the early 00's, Graham Wight Jnr was invited, did a very quick time [2nd fastest to Nick Heidfeld's record IIRC].....BHC would probably demolish that record, they're probably too fast for the course. Don't know of any other hillclimber being invited since....

After Heidfeld set the record, it was deemed not safe for modern F1s to set competitive times, so they are barred from doing so....  

At the time, I suggested having a separate event.....on the Sat there'd be historic hillclimb cars......and on the Sun rounds of the BHC and even maybe the British Sprint Championship.

Edited by Dick Dastardly, 24 June 2016 - 20:36.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Lack of star power in the cars and drivers? 

[RS2000]

The use of the venue was first investigated/proposed by a couple of club level speed event competitors as a "club" hill climb - something scarce, and now long non-existent, in the south east quarter of the country . It was hijacked for what it is now (well not the monstrosity it is NOW but what it was in 1993 when I attended the first practice day for the first event).

There has been the odd demonstration by a BHC car but it is largely a taboo subject because of this history and some guilty consciences. This is not targeted at the land owner. You probably need to look at the BARC as much as anyone else.

[sabrejet]

Interesting. Sad to hear and maybe no way back then?

 

I'd discount speed (no need to do timed runs) and lack of 'star' power (many non-'stars' in other FoS cars, and for BHC drivers the term is subjective).

[Ross Stonefeld]

But the Festival is mostly about Name drivers or at least Name cars(with drivers you might  have heard of). You have to think of it as any other 'top flight' series. It's like asking why they don't run a Ministox round supporting the Indy 500 

[BRG]

Or wondering why they don't have an edition of the Voice at Glastonbury.  The FOS isn't a motorsport event, it is a...well. a Festival of Speed.

[sabrejet]

So it's a festival of speed but without the fastest? That surely makes no sense...

 

[Lee Nicolle]

Fairly obvious it is about star cars and star drivers.

As a hillclimb venue it would be both boring and dangerous. I am sure lord March does not want the wall taken out, nor does he want cars arriving at his front door so rapidly either,

[sabrejet]

Fairly obvious it is about star cars and star drivers.

As a hillclimb venue it would be both boring and dangerous. I am sure lord March does not want the wall taken out, nor does he want cars arriving at his front door so rapidly either,

 

1. Star cars/drivers: have a look at this year's programme. Luckily still a good many 'non-star/non-star cars' in there!

2. Not suggesting it as a hill climb venue (though it already is): just recognising the branch of the sport that the whole event pays homage to!

 

Boring to see full-on hill climbers at 90%? Seen the Mannic lately?

[john aston]

It's a show;and the lustre of the show  would be tarnished if some random middle aged bloke nobody outside the hillclimb community had ever heard of turned up with a cheap as chips Jedi(other bike engined cars are available ) and made Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button's times look  pedestrian .Just the same reason why Top Gear didn't see a teenager turn up in a superkart or a Formula Renault , neither costing more than a set of wheels for a Veyron, and then make hypercars like the LaFerrari or 918 look slow.     

 

I watched a hillclimb round recently at Harewood - my 47th year of attendance - and the speed of the top cars was just jaw dropping. Not as dramatic perhaps as the big banger vars on teh straights but some of the turbo or supercharged bike engined cars are just amazing in the twisty bits 

[Alan Cox]

The use of the venue was first investigated/proposed by a couple of club level speed event competitors as a "club" hill climb

Don't forget that the first Hillclimb event on the Goodwood hill was in 1936 when the Duke of Richmond, Freddie March, organised an event for the Lancia Car Club

[chunder27]

They and the Berg Cup guys are ignored for an obvious reason.

 

They would push the limts on the hill far more than some old git in an old car worth more than the house would.

 

You have to understand that it is not really a pukka motorsport event. So the barriers and safety are not really suitable for a 160mph Norma or Osella or Gould to run full chat at?

 

They have been invited in the past, I am sure Graeme Wight ran there once or Grace, not sure.

 

But for the run off, if you had a Merli, Faggioli or Moran there they would win easily.  And possibly even get close to the record.

 

And who wants that other than them? It's a bit of a non event anyway.

 

Get guys like Zlatkov, Pailler, Gabat, Keith Roberts, Rito Meisel over there.  Instead of the road cars that only the youtube car parade freaks care about.

 

Sadly FoS is about money, alleged glamour, spectacle and crowds.

 

For me if you saw Faggiloi and Merli going flat out up there, that would be far more spectacular than some berk in a wheel standing drag car.  but I might be different to the fee paying norm as I think it's an overly expensive event anyway. Plus parking and traffic are hell.

Edited by chunder27, 25 June 2016 - 13:17.

[ensign14]

There is another slightly different elephant, which is that I think the more interesting stuff has been edged away into the Members' Meeting now.  The pre-WW2 area is no longer the Cathedral Paddock, it is with the more contemporary machinery.  Seemed to be a lot less interesting material.  But still some good stuff like the mental Voisin GP car.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Who makes the decisions at Goodwood as to what cars and which drivers are invited, not just to FoS, but to all three events? (Don't worry, I don't plan to dispatch a "Sir!" letter. I'm just curious. )

[chunder27]

I think the top man himself makes most of the decisions!

 

Either way it is a show, not a race meeting, so they only care about spectacle loose links to motorsport or car culture hence Fonda a few years ago.

[sabrejet]

There is another slightly different elephant, which is that I think the more interesting stuff has been edged away into the Members' Meeting now.  The pre-WW2 area is no longer the Cathedral Paddock, it is with the more contemporary machinery.  Seemed to be a lot less interesting material.  But still some good stuff like the mental Voisin GP car.

 

I'd definitely agree: Cathedral Paddock used to be chock-full of historics and they've now gone where? F1 paddock is already too big and this year also saw a lack of WEC machinery.

 

For me it was still a good event but my rose-tinted spectacles came off this morning when I realised I'd taken half the number of photos compared to last year. Fewer photos would seem to equate to fewer things of interest?

 

But that's off-topic a bit! Chunder27: valid points in your replies too.

[Lee Nicolle]

I have been watching the 'live' feed and some are having a 90% go, others a Sunday drive. I like to see them having at least half a go.

Just saw the M8 McLaren do 51 sec and seemingly well under control,,, then it rained!

Yesterday I saw one of the prewar cars with the driver wearing a HANS,, and no seat belts!

Or a tall chap on a pre WW1 car with a leather helmet, not done up.

Modern race suits and helmets do look a little weird in this very old equipment.

[Adrian Beese]

Andy Priaux in something quick would shake them up, you can't, ignore a world champion and works Ford driver.

[Perruqueporte]

There is an awful lot of hillclimbing aside from the fastest single seaters - with some fantastic home-designed and home-made kit. And the history of hillclimbing is as old as the hills (sorry, couldn't resist that). Which is why I have always been surprised at the omission from the Festival of Speed. Among others, I would love to see Nick Mann's Mannic Beattie and Chris Cannell's Force SR8 tackle the Goodwood hill. They would be stars of the show, and they would put a smile on every face.

Christopher W.

[john aston]

Andy Priaux in something quick would shake them up, you can't, ignore a world champion and works Ford driver.

 Andy Priaulx of course made his name many years ago in hillclimbing . But the fact that somebody is either a WTCC winner or a works Ford driver doesn't automatically mean they would be an effective hillclimber  if by 'something quick' you mean a single seater. 

[sabrejet]

There is an awful lot of hillclimbing aside from the fastest single seaters - with some fantastic home-designed and home-made kit. And the history of hillclimbing is as old as the hills (sorry, couldn't resist that). Which is why I have always been surprised at the omission from the Festival of Speed. Among others, I would love to see Nick Mann's Mannic Beattie and Chris Cannell's Force SR8 tackle the Goodwood hill. They would be stars of the show, and they would put a smile on every face.

Christopher W.

     See my post 10!

[Stephen W]

Ross Stonefeld - for what it is worth I hadn't heard of half of the drivers in the so called top Ten Run-off last year and most of those cars wouldn't even win their class in a British Hillclimb Championship meeting. As for star power in the cars, well you obviously have never been to a British Hillclimb Championship round or a Bergrennen event.

 

Several people have hinted at the real reason for the BHC drivers not being invited. They would demolish the hill record and in doing so raise lots of safety issues. Let's leave the FoS to wallow in nostalgia and have mediocre 'competition', it's a show, entertainment and as such it has its place. It would be nice to see some of the Top Class winners in the BHC taking part - not necessarily the single seaters as they may ruin the show.

[dwh43scale]

Long time FoS attendee but not this time. Not enough new stuff to see and discovered (late in life) real hillclimbing.

 

The FoS is a very successful event, but now, as perhaps for other TNFers, it is not what I want to spend my hard earned on.

 

Will have the live streaming on in the background, but even there the continual selfies and tweets are wearisome - must be getting old !!

[sabrejet]

Re Posts 23 and 24: I wholeheartedly agree: I think this year has made me realise that the selfie stick and the Twitter post are now the FoS must-haves, where in the past it would have been due reverence and a chance to see something new and talk to one's heroes (I mean folks like Stirling Moss and Brian Redman, not some nobody whose done a few single-seater races and been on Big Brother).

 

I'll have to see how I feel next year but I may be putting my money elsewhere in 2017. I already attend a lot of REAL hill climbs so maybe I'll look at doing a whole season

 

And no, it's not about getting old - it's about reasonable expectations.

[chunder27]

The silly thing about about this is, the reason people like us fans go to Goodwood is to see something different perhaps or to see something you never expected to see.

 

What were the things that wowed people the most over the past decade?  Perhaps Rod Millen in the Tacoma Pikes Peak car? Perhaps Mike Whddett in the drift car, or that bonkers Monster off road thing.

 

Why?  Coz he drove it like a nutter, it sounded great and looked amazing!

 

Anyone here heard of Felix Pailler?  Fulvio Giulani?  Chritian Merli?  Simone Faggiolli?  Reto Meisel?  Erich Edlinger?  All these guys drive cars that look amazing, sound great, would be interesting look at in  the paddock and would also put on a good show, looks, and sound wise up the hill.

 

But they are not "classical", have no links to history and are not known to a lot of motorsport fans.

 

What they are known to is tens of thousands of youtubers like me who discovered European hill racing in the past few years.

 

Are we moving with the times here Goodwood?  I remember working there, and sadly no they never have!

Edited by chunder27, 26 June 2016 - 08:24.

[sabrejet]

Well here's another thought: in years gone by (when spectator numbers were first limited), the variety was there but tickets sold out. 

 

So on that basis why pander to the 'armchair F1' brigade when you already have a product which meets your expectations?

 

Or are these the potential customers who the corporate sponsors want through the gates?

[chunder27]

I think aspects of Goodwoods meetings are definitely to be seen at events, especially the one early in the year which is pathetically expensive.

 

The Revival is to a certain extent too.

 

But the Festival is an even anyone can go to really, wear what they want, take pics, wander around. Fine.

 

I would prefer a proper festival of motorsport not a celeb trout farm. I don't think it's too bad really, but it is very pricey now and to make it work you have to go at least 2 days to see everything. That makes it a very dear weekend.

 

Again, that also takes it away from a few of the masses.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Ross Stonefeld - for what it is worth I hadn't heard of half of the drivers in the so called top Ten Run-off last year and most of those cars wouldn't even win their class in a British Hillclimb Championship meeting. As for star power in the cars, well you obviously have never been to a British Hillclimb Championship round or a Bergrennen event.

 

 

I'm sure they're stars in the hillclimbing world but not in the general motorsports world which is what the FoS is aimed at.

[sabrejet]

So what exactly is, "The general motorsports world"? Drifting? Time Attack? Touring Cars? That Ken Block stuff?

[chunder27]

I think Ross hits the nail on the head really sabre.

 

You are dealing with PR people who work for Goodwood who book drivers for this, PR people, marketing people, account managers.  Not all of them will have a clue about some branches of motorsport, they will also be dealing with pushy PR people from Red Bull, Monster, Honda, every type of manufacturer, series and brand. Look at things like motocross, speedway, Monster Jam, all massive crowd pulling events but not really relevant. Drifint isnt a crowd puller in Europe, it might be in Japan in the US. But not here, what is massive is the youtube hits they get as they spam your social media pages with them.

 

I somehow doubt the British Hillclimb series or Berg Cup have marketing folk employed to send pushy emails to Goodwood.

 

Unless there are people working there who are single minded enough to have their own ideas, they will do what most mdoern journalists do and check their inbox every day for months!!

 

It is sad but true.

[sabrejet]

Some non-sequiturs here. To use two terms from the above: "crowd-pulling" and "general motorsports -  from the first few pages of this year's FoS programme I'll list a few of the "crowd-pulling, general motorsports" names/cars listed:

 

Avions Voisin C1 Laboratoire - Reg Winstone

Renault Type AK - Luis Penedo

Fiat S61 - Giuseppe Bagli

Kieft-Climax GP - Nigel Batchelor

 

..and so on. The FoS would be all the poorer if these cars and drivers/owners were not present, but I doubt any of them would claim to be crowd-pulling or general motorsport. Or do these people have their own, "...marketing folk employed to send pushy emails to Goodwood"?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Sure because those are some obscure, amazing looking cars. It's going to be a mix of the Known and the Weird, there's not really a lot of room left for club racing. 

 

And you guys have plenty of events, why so hung up on Goodwood? Because you want to be part of the big show? It's a show, not a race event. 

[chunder27]

I think you mis understand me Sabre

 

The vast majority of vehicles at FOS have some historical significance or are recently restored or linked to whatever theme is present.

What I am talking about are the off the ball things, the Block, Whiddett, Monster truck etc.

[BRG]

And you guys have plenty of events, why so hung up on Goodwood? Because you want to be part of the big show? It's a show, not a race event. 

Exactly.  There seems to be some sort of hurt pride involved here.  If people wanted to see current hillclimbers, they would be flocking to Prescott or Shelsley, not to the FoS.  It is a show about cars and racing in general.  It isn't, and never set out to be, a competitive hill-climb. The elephant on the room is that very small cuddly stuffed one on the mantelpiece.

[chunder27]

It is simply a comment based on the general motorsport world.

 

Goodwood throw up a live run off don't they?

 

So what is the problem with getitng some proper hillclimb cars in there? No-one is saying it is a disgrace they dont, or a total shock. Just a discussion point really.

or is that a little too common sense for you strange folk that seem to think it would not be a good idea?

[GMACKIE]

"Goodwood throw up" ! Really, chunder, did you have to bring that up ?

[ensign14]

Nominative determinism.

[Alan Cox]

Will have the live streaming on in the background, but even there the continual selfies and tweets are wearisome - must be getting old !!

I did tune in to the live stream but would agree that the 'selfies' did get extremely tiresome, but I suppose, nowadays, everyone is encouraged to be 'part of the event', and if that means taking pics of yourself to show the world that you were there, so be it. It did seem to me that there were always 'supercars' and brand new road cars being displayed on the hill whenever I tuned in to an extent that I don't recall in previous years. I thought that Thursday's 'Moving Motor Show' was a more appropriate time to be doing that. However, I suppose it's motor industry big bucks that helps the event turn a profit, so one just has to live with that.

Edited by Alan Cox, 26 June 2016 - 21:53.

[Lee Nicolle]

Some non-sequiturs here. To use two terms from the above: "crowd-pulling" and "general motorsports -  from the first few pages of this year's FoS programme I'll list a few of the "crowd-pulling, general motorsports" names/cars listed:

 

Avions Voisin C1 Laboratoire - Reg Winstone

Renault Type AK - Luis Penedo

Fiat S61 - Giuseppe Bagli

Kieft-Climax GP - Nigel Batchelor

 

..and so on. The FoS would be all the poorer if these cars and drivers/owners were not present, but I doubt any of them would claim to be crowd-pulling or general motorsport. Or do these people have their own, "...marketing folk employed to send pushy emails to Goodwood"?

The commentators were waffling about something when the Kieft went up and it did not even get a mesage.  And the adds are now commercial partners.PC speak for adverts!

[sabrejet]

Thanks Chunder: I think my query was getting lost amid some bizarre ideas of 'pride' or whatever. I'm not a competitor, just someone who'd like to see the best of the best. The arguments 'against' thus far haven't explained the absence of proper hill climbers, aside from the pointers made by Dick Dastardly and RS2000's at the top.

 

And don't get me started on the bl00dy commentators: it took them two days to work out that just because a Mazda is green and orange, it's not necessarily the Le Mans winner.

 

On that basis I shall now refer to any Marlboro McLaren as, "that car Nigel had trouble getting his fat *rse into".

[Stephen W]

Several people mention spending their hard-earned elsewhere. The real elephant in the room is "Does the FoS represent good value for money for motor sport enthusiasts or does it just pander to the enthusiasts of the celebrity culture?"

 

Ross Stonefeld hits the nail on the head when he says "It's a show, not a race event!. So if that is the case why do the commentators bang on about hill records especially when we all know that the only reason Heidfeld's record still stands is that they dare not invite any of the Top Ten British Hillclimb Contenders to the 'show'.

 

Toby Moody, Marcus Pye and Chris Drewett were again excellent on the commentary but who was that other bloke? His grasp of the English language was tenuous and his enthusiasm totally disproportionate to what was being broadcast!

[ensign14]

I thought Jennie Gow did an excellent job on Thursday.  After all, nothing much happens then, so it was basically a six hour chat show.  Not easy to keep engaged.

[sabrejet]

Was it Ben Constandurous doing the roving commentary? Talking on the McLaren stand about one of the 1980s TAG-engine F1 cars, he was getting excited about the 'massive' engine with a 'huge turbo' strapped to it. Funny that - not being an F1 enthusiast I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure it's a 1.5-litre twin-turbo. Or does a 1500 qualify as 'massive' these days? 

 

Moving on to the M8D, he then described the intake trumpets as 'exhausts' and on it went. Enthusiastic yes, but his input was of doubtful worth to either enthusiast or pundit.

 

Until he found his latest excuse to fawn over Keanu that is... 

[F1matt]

I have never visited the Festival of Speed, living in North Yorkshire it is a bit of a trek to see racing cars that dont actually race, a visit to Silverstone for the classics is much higher on the agenda, (or a trip to Harewood but I dont want to rattle any cages) and reading the above comments makes me want to go over less. I dont care about corporate partners on Credit Suisse executives day out I want to see a racing driver and racing car in their natural surroundings on a track, for me its a bit like turning a safari down to go and see a lion in a zoo. 

[Gary C]

'Was it Ben Constandurous doing the roving commentary?'

If so, he has been woeful on the commentaries from the Revival Meeting, too.

[sabrejet]

Ah. Well I shall look forward to renewing his acquaintance in September. Oh joy. Ear defenders at the ready (my retro ones).

[PRD]

I enjoyed it. I went on my own on Saturday and wandered around looking at lots of interesting cars. I took a stroll pass the shops and the stands and called in at Hortons and Chaters, but didn't buy anything. I watched a lot of interesting cars being driven and there were plenty parked up to gawp at. I watched most of the runs up the hill and then met my son on Sunday and did more of the same. I missed the MM this year because both myself and my wife had flu and this was my annual Goodwood fix. I'm not keen on the Revival because the dressing-up has never appealed and it's all a bit silly

[chunder27]

I think yoou approach it the right way PRD!

 

Two days, one too mooch!  The other to watch, the rally and the climb!

[sabrejet]

I think if I attend next year it'll be to mooch: Moving Motor Show Thurs seems a better day to see stuff without the scramble for selfies/pointless autographs.