40 replies to this topic

[Hati]

In todays qualifying Nico Hulkenberg and Kevin Magnussen didn't get grid penalty since they slowed down enough under yellow flags while three other people got punished:

http://www.autosport...rivers-punished.

 

A statement from the stewards read: "Although the driver went 'green' [setting a personal best time] in the sector where the double yellow flags were displayed, the telemetry clearly demonstrated he had decelerated on approaching the flag point and that his speed reduced in the yellow flag sector."

 

How [insert colourful expression here] can you claim with margins in F1 that someone slows speed down significantly and at the same time improves his sector time? Since he improved his time the slowing down could only happen for a fraction of a second, something a bystander can't see. Is it that much safer if you crash on a parked car at 256km/h instead of 257km/h? I say that in dry track it's physically impossible to improve time (which is already within 107% rule) if you slow down enough for yellow flags and this is a big fat double standard in all the fancy safety speak amongst F1.

[TomNokoe]

Sky replayed Hulkenberg's lift. It was absolutely miniscule.

[HoldenRT]

It's a very grey area rule and I've never liked it.  Some common sense should be used, especially if it's dry.. where if the car is on the side of the straight out of the way of danger, the other drivers should be able to use their own judgement and take caution (but not slow down).. and if it's in a bad spot, like a corner for example or in a run off zone.. drivers shouldn't be allowed to post a time anywhere near their best time and if they use common sense they will abort their lap.  It should be seconds slower in that sector.  Maybe different yellows could be used for each situation.  The way it is now, some drivers will slow down more than others and the safer ones will be punished in terms of laptimes and the penalties from the stewards are inconsistent.  A driver going 2-4km/h slower is silly, and like a parody.

[Kev00]

I think basically Hulk and Magnussen acknowledged the yellow flags. They showed they were aware of them. Of course if marshalls had been on the track or there was more of a danger then I would have expected a much bigger drop in speed. It seems some drivers did absolutely nothing different and so they don't really have an excuse.

[Marklar]

I think acknowledging isnt enough. They are not waving the yellow flags for fun. They are waving them because you have to be careful there and a bit lifting isnt sufficient to ensure that you wont crash into the marshalls/car on track.

[Muzzyf1]

This kind of behavior will eventually bring on another Bianchi style crash.
We all saw the onboard video he was going full tilt passed the yellows.
Having a lift that was hardly audible is just a joke.
Just like nearly every decision is in today's f1

[johnmhinds]

Hakkinen was famous for not lifting and just holding up his hand to acknowledge that he had seen the flags.

The FIA has been allowing reckless driving under yellow flags for decades and I don't see them changing any time soon.

[quaint]

It's a very grey area rule and I've never liked it.  Some common sense should be used, especially if it's dry.. where if the car is on the side of the straight out of the way of danger, the other drivers should be able to use their own judgement and take caution (but not slow down)..

 

Judging by this weekends records on suspension rigidity, I'd say it's very hard to say when a car (and marshals) are out of the way of danger.

[Piledriver]

If there is a yellow flag you should be going seconds slower, not hundredths of a second slower.

[Hati]

and take caution (but not slow down)

 

How do you take caution without slowing down? These are racing drivers in racing conditions focusing only on the driving, they are as alert as they can be.

 

Lets imagine that Hulk had driven too heavily over the kerb as some other drivers did and his suspension had broken just at that place making him a passenger, what good would extra caution or the 'slowing down' that he did had done? Absolutely nothing.

[Hati]

Hakkinen was famous for not lifting and just holding up his hand to acknowledge that he had seen the flags.

 

Yeah, I remember seeing a pole lap of him where he did that, it's from where I've been thinking of this. So from a thought to a topic in less than twenty years, who says that I can't get anything done. (And still I'm probably fast as lightning compared to FIA actually doing anything for the problem.)

[Nonesuch]

How [insert colourful expression here] can you claim with margins in F1 that someone slows speed down significantly and at the same time improves his sector time?

 

That's simple: these drivers did nothing wrong according to F1's own peculiar version of the rules, which mostly boils down to the say so of the FIA race director.

 

Never mind that there are volunteer marshals on or near the track.

 

[mangeliiito]

It's really insane that it has come this far and they still don't understand. They even blamed Bianchi for driving to fast, but it's okay to set a PB sector...? I get so angry at theese morons, punish them amd punish them hard!!!

[Clatter]

I still wonder why things like this are so lax. Who/where does the problem originate? Is it CW?

[Afterburner]

This is why I have no problem with IMSA and Indycar throwing yellows as often as they do: they get it. As a corner marshal myself I've spoken about this before--you either enforce drastically slower speeds for waved yellows and punish the f&%k out of anyone who disobeys, or you make greater use of full-course yellows and red flags. Great to see that F1 feels neither is a reasonable solution.

[PayasYouRace]

I think the best solution is to automatically delete any laptime set with yellow flags on the track. Then there would be no incentive to drive fast through the danger area.

[Clatter]

I think the best solution is to automatically delete any laptime set with yellow flags on the track. Then there would be no incentive to drive fast through the danger area.

I think there needs to be a speed limit set through any yellow flag zone. After all its a problem in the race as well as Q, and you can't remove a lap time in the race, so remove the possible advantage of speeding.

[pdac]

I think the best solution is to automatically delete any laptime set with yellow flags on the track. Then there would be no incentive to drive fast through the danger area.

 

But they would. All breaches of rules designed solely for safety must be punished severely. Sadly they rarely are.

[scheivlak]

I think the best solution is to automatically delete any laptime set with yellow flags on the track. Then there would be no incentive to drive fast through the danger area.

"Automatic" solutions are not always the smartest or the most rightful. On a drying track you can and should go faster even when you lift.

[Seanspeed]

I think the best solution is to automatically delete any laptime set with yellow flags on the track. Then there would be no incentive to drive fast through the danger area.

That would make it very easy for teams to guarantee certain results.  

 

"Hey, we're 3rd and 4th, go out and make sure to make a mistake on your final lap".  

[LeClerc]

I think the best solution is to automatically delete any laptime set with yellow flags on the track. Then there would be no incentive to drive fast through the danger area.

 

I like that idea, but it of course would lead to all kinds of shenanigans. I can imagine a lot of cars going slightly off at an opportune moment.

 

VSC works, and it should be applied more liberally.

[ANF]

A couple of facts:
• Q1 had been red flagged for Kvyat's accident at T9
• 1:44 remained of Q1 when the session was restarted – enough for everyone to do one out lap and one flying lap
• 0:47 remained when the yellow flags came out for Sainz's car – a VSC or a red flag would have been the end of Q1
• Sainz parked his car on the grass not far off the track at a very fast part of the circuit, and marshals were attending the car

A couple of questions:
• What are the odds that the recovery of Sainz's car would have warranted a VSC or a red flag had there been more time left in Q1?
• Is it the job of race control to ensure a fair/exciting end of Q1/2/3? Even if it means a compromise on safety?

[BillBald]

It's really insane that it has come this far and they still don't understand. They even blamed Bianchi for driving to fast, but it's okay to set a PB sector...? I get so angry at theese morons, punish them amd punish them hard!!!

 

Nobody's going to punish CW.

[ANF]

That would make it very easy for teams to guarantee certain results.  
 
"Hey, we're 3rd and 4th, go out and make sure to make a mistake on your final lap".

I believe Indycar penalize drivers who cause a yellow flag in qualifying for that very reason?

[Nonesuch]

I still wonder why things like this are so lax.

The simple answer is that it has worked out fine so far.

The less popular answer would probably follow from comparing the efforts made by the FIA to promote the safety of drivers on the one hand, and the concern they've demonstrated towards the safety of volunteer marshals on the other hand.
 

Who/where does the problem originate? Is it CW?

 

Whether it starts there is anyone's guess, but the FIA race director can change this situation.

Yet he doesn't care to.

[johnmhinds]

I think the best solution is to automatically delete any laptime set with yellow flags on the track. Then there would be no incentive to drive fast through the danger area.

 

That doesn't really make them slow down in the moment though, you could still drive recklessly and ignore the flags. And isn't applicable to yellow flags that happen during free practice or the race.

 

I think it would be better if they said you had to drop down to 2nd gear while travelling through a yellow zone. Creating a driver controlled speed limit.

[CoolBreeze]

I think in a yellow flag area, they should reduce the speed drastically for about 5 seconds, and the get on with it. There's a reason a yellow flag is being waved, and just to 'show' you are slowing down when you actually are just dropping 3 km/h, that's ridiculous. Soon, something bad gonna happen soon, and then Charlie will just blame the driver for not slowing. Why can't they just standardized the whole bloody thing.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

They still haven't learnt the lessons from Bianchi's accident!

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I think in a yellow flag area, they should reduce the speed drastically for about 5 seconds, and the get on with it. There's a reason a yellow flag is being waved, and just to 'show' you are slowing down when you actually are just dropping 3 km/h, that's ridiculous. Soon, something bad gonna happen soon, and then Charlie will just blame the driver for not slowing. Why can't they just standardized the whole bloody thing.

Create a slow zone like LeMan ?

[Montie]

I personally think Sainz was too slow to get the car off the track and ruining it for the other drivers. I noticed already while leaving the pit the STR was hasitant to go, looked like the problem was already present at that time. I think that should warrant a penalty for Sainz really.

https://streamable.com/ep5g

[Nonesuch]

Why can't they just standardized the whole bloody thing.

 

The FIA race director has standardized it. His standard just doesn't account for weather changes as it is dependent on session best times.

 

[travbrad]

But they would. All breaches of rules designed solely for safety must be punished severely. Sadly they rarely are.

 

Don't worry they are still handing out reprimands for reversing in parc ferme after the race is over or random penalties for crossing white lines sometimes, but not usually, unless they decide to that time and the moon is in the right phase.

 

Those things are surely much worse than risking marshal's lives 

[Nonesuch]

random penalties for crossing white lines sometimes, but not usually, unless they decide to that time and the moon is in the right phase.

 

The FIA race director has investigated this thoroughly. He has concluded that: "It is up to us to decide whether he has gained an advantage from being off track."

 

Luckily, that decision is often very easy, because as the FIA's appointee explains: "
Circuits are designed so that going off track should always be slower – or at least not faster."

 

All those drivers leaving the track and taking full advantage of the enormous kerbstones? Total rookies!    They just don't understand that it's slower - or at least not faster - but luckily the FIA does.

 

Those things are surely much worse than risking marshal's lives 

 

Perhaps it is. And that might just be the saddest part of this situation.

Edited by Nonesuch, 03 July 2016 - 08:42.

[Oho]

Hakkinen was famous for not lifting and just holding up his hand to acknowledge that he had seen the flags.

The FIA has been allowing reckless driving under yellow flags for decades and I don't see them changing any time soon.

 

That was a single yellow held stationary to warn drivers of Hills car parked off line, not double or even single waved yellow.

[TomNokoe]

I personally think Sainz was too slow to get the car off the track and ruining it for the other drivers. I noticed already while leaving the pit the STR was hasitant to go, looked like the problem was already present at that time. I think that should warrant a penalty for Sainz really.

https://streamable.com/ep5g

I agree, this is how I feel the situation should have gone

- Sainz pulls off immediately
- Jumps out of car and behind barrier
- Car stationery on grass, long way from race track
- No yellows
- Marshalls attend after chequered flag

There was no reason (i.e Fire) for the car to be attended immediately.

[Bleu]

One thing to consider is that how good the previous lap has been. If driver makes a mistake and loses two seconds at one point it's easy to go faster even by slowing down significantly.

[Retrofly]

How about whenever there is a yellow they pause the timer for the countdown clock. It may allow people to get in an extra lap, and make it less of an insentive to go fast with yellows being waved.

[Montie]

I agree, this is how I feel the situation should have gone

- Sainz pulls off immediately
- Jumps out of car and behind barrier
- Car stationery on grass, long way from race track
- No yellows
- Marshalls attend after chequered flag

There was no reason (i.e Fire) for the car to be attended immediately.

Yes I agree with you. He did not even stop at the firemarshall, he passed the firemarshall and the escape road before stopping further down the track on the grass.

[Ruusperi]

How about whenever there is a yellow they pause the timer for the countdown clock. It may allow people to get in an extra lap, and make it less of an insentive to go fast with yellows being waved.

Nice idea, but I don't think TV companies like that every spin or stationary car delays the session.

 

There should be more flags:

-Yellow-green striped flag that indicates the car is stopped in a safe position (inside after a slow corner / at the exit of the pit lane)

-Yellow with white circle flag that indicates a car has just spun or run wide but is able to continue in a second.

-Yellow flags to tell a driver that he must slow down to 100km/h, because another car has stopped near the track (but before VSC or SC is deployed)

-Double yellows that are used during VSC or SC.

Edited by Ruusperi, 03 July 2016 - 11:05.

[sabjit]

It's a very grey area rule and I've never liked it.  Some common sense should be used, especially if it's dry.. where if the car is on the side of the straight out of the way of danger, the other drivers should be able to use their own judgement and take caution (but not slow down).. and if it's in a bad spot, like a corner for example or in a run off zone.. drivers shouldn't be allowed to post a time anywhere near their best time and if they use common sense they will abort their lap.  It should be seconds slower in that sector.  Maybe different yellows could be used for each situation.  The way it is now, some drivers will slow down more than others and the safer ones will be punished in terms of laptimes and the penalties from the stewards are inconsistent.  A driver going 2-4km/h slower is silly, and like a parody.

 

Maybe we need a new colour flag, one just an advisory flag so they dont have to slow down, just saying that there is some sort of hazard and then another flag for slow down and abort hot lap.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Yet another flag to be ignored, they just need to enforce the rules! Simple they will soon learn after they have been penalised...