22 replies to this topic

[mariner]

On a recent trip to the USA I was lucky enough to see a NASCAR race after a very long gap- my Fathers Day present!

 

It was at Pocono, rain delayed from the Sunday but I was amazed just how many people could get there on the Monday.

 

One incident was quite funny and shows just how much Aero influence there is on a modern NASCAR car.The Penske team car of Brad Keselowsaki made an early pit stop then it was brought in by the NASCAR officials who studied it carefully for a long while. Eventually it re entered the race.

 

What ahd happened was that during the pitstop the  very large right jack  man ( NFL size) had stepped back and body-charged the right side of the car between the back of the door and the right rear wheel. given his impressive size he made a big dent in the bodywork.

 

That is exactly what the team were trying to do. Apparently a concave profile there generates a inward side force thus improving rear grip!

 

NASCAR aren't stupid however and they have HD tv watching the pits so Team Penske got caught and penalised.

 

 

The video of him at work is here  

 

I was quite impressed by the idea , and by, the willingness of the crewman to risk his shoulder against the steel bodywork. Mind you he was big.

Edited by mariner, 13 July 2016 - 09:28.

[desmo]

I wonder what the aero mechanism is for that and how it was discovered?  And the bodywork is steel?

[JacnGille]

Anything one can do to help a "brick" do 180 to 200MPH is going to be attempted.

[Fat Boy]

It's interesting in that they aren't trying to get DOWNforce, but SIDEforce. So, how can *I* use that?

[Magoo]

This is sorta common lately, though this case was rather egregious. Big lad, wasn't he.

 

This also led to a feud between driver Keselowski and Gordon up in the booth that I couldn't quite follow. 

[Lee Nicolle]

In future they will need some form racing with the teammate the but a dent  'just there'!

[bigleagueslider]

The body panels used on Cup cars are indeed made from steel. But the steel is fairly thin gauge. NASCAR also has a rigorous inspection procedure using several templates to check the shape of every car before and after qualifying, before starting the race, and every car after the race that will be awarded any championship points.

[imaginesix]

It's interesting in that they aren't trying to get DOWNforce, but SIDEforce. So, how can *I* use that?

Start by forgetting how to turn in one direction.

[imaginesix]

I always figured once the race is on, team cars should take turns rear ending each other to buckle the rear bumper area into the shape of a diffuser. Guess I negelected to consider the 'making up rules on the fly' nature of NASCAR.

[dbltop]

Yes the body work is steel, but very very thin steel. Easily dented.

[mariner]

I think the aero mechanism must be quite subtle as you would think a dent on the INSIDE of the car  would be more useful in creating some sort of turbulence and thus lower pressure. Any ideas how the outside dent works?

 

NASCAR pitstops are interesting for other things too. The right side jack guy has to be strong as he has to lift up one side of a 1,500 kg car very quickly. They only seem to use one big sroke of the jack. What is noticable is how fast the car comes up on the right versus the left side. I presume they run very high outside spring rates with some sort of droop limiter so the wheels clear the ground fast if the jackman is strong enough.

 

The left side seems to take several pumps on the jack handle so I presume the inside rate must be lot lower than the outside rate.

[Fat Boy]

Start by forgetting how to turn in one direction.

 

I'm not bad at that, oval setup in an engineer's playground. The race is about the driver, but we're _a hell_ of a lot more important on an oval than on a, say, a street circuit.

 

Regardless, at nearly every road course racetrack you end up turning one direction more than the other. It's relatively rare that I end up with a completely symmetrical car.

[gruntguru]

I think the aero mechanism must be quite subtle as you would think a dent on the INSIDE of the car  would be more useful in creating some sort of turbulence and thus lower pressure. Any ideas how the outside dent works?

Look at the car in plan view. Imagine it is an airfoil and you want a lift vector pointing away from the fence. A concave profile on the fence side will help.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I'm not bad at that, oval setup in an engineer's playground. The race is about the driver, but we're _a hell_ of a lot more important on an oval than on a, say, a street circuit.
 
Regardless, at nearly every road course racetrack you end up turning one direction more than the other. It's relatively rare that I end up with a completely symmetrical car.

1999 I tested a Formula car for a winning team in a serious championship. It was a pokey little test track but it was 3:1 lefts to rights.

I asked about asymetric setups, was told it made the braking funny. End of discussion.

I mean, sure they won a **** ton more than I did/do, but it wasn't much of an exchange of ideas..

But you look at places like Thruxton, where all the really fast turns go one way and you can't not think "hmmm..."
 

[Fat Boy]

1999 I tested a Formula car for a winning team in a serious championship. It was a pokey little test track but it was 3:1 lefts to rights.

I asked about asymetric setups, was told it made the braking funny. End of discussion.

I mean, sure they won a **** ton more than I did/do, but it wasn't much of an exchange of ideas..

But you look at places like Thruxton, where all the really fast turns go one way and you can't not think "hmmm..."
 

 

 

There's a few things to take into account.

 

1. Braking probably does get funny. It's part of the compromise. Keep in mind, you may have to put quite a bit of asymmetry in the car before braking goes away.

 

2. Euro's in general tend to keep things the same side-to-side. Just an observation.

 

3. It was a test (one off?). Most teams use this an an opportunity to do the least amount of work while collecting the most amount of cash. If you're lucky, the big change of the day will be a set of stickers.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Oh I totally agree on 3, especially in my case. It was sort of a first-timers test. I wasn't even asking for changes(and they never asked me if I wanted anything, or how I was going, etc). It was more a lunch break "oh hey, this track is a bit funny, do you guys ever..." "No."

 

Honestly the most interesting/open conversation I ever had with anyone in European racing was Mark Webber's dad. I think we talked about dirt oval racing. But he would only be European in the sense of that's where we were sitting. 

 

Speaking in generalities I found the older generation were often more open-minded. If you worked on 80s F1 cars or something. I think everyone should do a stint in motorcycle racing to learn about practicality, not scaring the meat, etc. 

 

And I've always had this pet theory that part of the reason drivers that raced in America(even if their backgrounds were heavily European, ie Bourdais) struggle in F1 is cultural. They usually come off championship winning years with big teams that treat them like professionals and human beings. You get into F1 and it's suddenly "Uh, which one are you? Why are you here again?". I think it's telling that the stronger personalities did better. But that's probably true of the guys who promote classically from F3, F3000, GP2, etc. 

[Fat Boy]

I think you're right. The Euro vs. American mentality is quite a bit different across the board.

 

A couple years ago at Daytona I was working with a Euro crew who were good guys, but maybe a little questioning of the Yank. We blew an engine before before qual and the change had to happen ASAP. I waded in with the mechanics and we got it changed in time. It wasn't about my mechanical skills, which are mediocre. A race mechanic is much, much more efficient at his job than I am. It was about motivating everyone to get the **** done, and it worked. It was also about having a guy(me) that could fetch trays and lend a hand in a 'floater' capacity. At some point during the drill someone asked, "Don't you have engineer **** to do?" to which I responded, "None of that really matters if we don't have a running car, does it?" We both laughed.

 

Anyway, after the race we were having drinks and the Euro guys said that they couldn't believe an engineer would wade into an engine change because it just never, ever happens in their world. I had to admit that it wasn't a normal thing for me either, but it was kind of an "all hands on deck" situation and even though I was clumsy in comparison, I knew enough to be of assistance. I got the feeling that they were still shaking their heads even after an explanation. I guess I found their response as odd as they found my dirty hands.

 

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Another thought about the test you spoke about. Until the point where you are running about as fast as they know that setup can run, I probably wouldn't change much, either. At some point, you have to know what you can do and what you can't do. If a new guy is several seconds off pace (not saying you were, but it's not uncommon), then car changes are really not the issue. I'd go over data and working on coaching, but I would keep car changes to a minimum.

[Fat Boy]

 

Speaking in generalities I found the older generation were often more open-minded. If you worked on 80s F1 cars or something. I think everyone should do a stint in motorcycle racing to learn about practicality, not scaring the meat, etc. 

 

Karting does the trick as well.

[JacnGille]

I think you're right. The Euro vs. American mentality is quite a bit different across the board.

Didn't Mario have to kick and scream and threaten to hold his breath before Chapman agreed to try asymetric setups???

[Fat Boy]

I believe Jacques V had a similar experience.

[bigleagueslider]

There is not much incentive anymore for US drivers to pursue an F1 career when they can earn a very nice income driving in NASCAR events. Of course we should not consider driving a Cup car to be less demanding than driving an F1 car. There have been a couple F1 champs that struggled a bit in NASCAR.

 

Also remember a while back how many motorcycle GP racing world champs were Americans that started out racing on dirt flat tracks where they learned how to slide thru corners. Roberts, Spencer, Rainey, Lawson, Schwantz, etc.

[Greg Locock]

Oh, racing drivers do it for the money? How quaint.

[Nathan]

 

Start by forgetting how to turn in one direction.

During a 180mph powerslide you remember quickly..