75 replies to this topic

[Slowersofterdumber]

One thing I´ve noticed in my brief time here is the enormous threads that erupt after accidents, and how often they´re very polarized by the fact that there are specific drivers involved. I get the feeling that the names of the drivers involved in an accident really trigger some emotional reactions that don´t allow fans to judge incidents in a rational way.

 

So I thought that creating a "general thread" to talk about racing etiquette, without mentioning any specific incident, could raise the level quite a lot. The idea is people posting stuff that annoys them that drivers/riders do nowadays, changes they would like to see in the way certain actions are treated by stewards, and whatever you can come across here WITHOUT being specific about a certain incident, unless used to illustrate the action they talk about.

 

To make it clear, what I´d like:

 

- It´s so annoying when drivers leave for the last moment their defensive move down the straights! Being the guy behind you really don´t want anyone moving across when you´re poking out of the tow. They had ages to move and secure the inside before, and they wait to the last possible fraction just to see if you get frightened and lift.

 

And what I´d like to avoid:

 

- Oh shut up, you only complain because it´s (insert whatever name here). He did it in the past too and you didn´t complain back then!

 

I´ll kick it out with a thought: it´s incredible how incredibly hard it is getting to pass on the outside in slow corners these days. The guy trying that move is not safe anymore from a squeeze even when they´re ahead heading for corner exit, let alone if they´re fully alongside. In fast corners the driver on the inside usually doesn´t want contact at all so they all tend to leave room. But when they exit a hairpin and the consequences for contact are controllable, they don´t mind using every inch of the track even if they clash with the other guy out there.

 

Using all the track width on exit should be allowed if you´re ahead. Then the other guy should be wise enough to back out and filter behind. If he´s fully alongside you, or even ahead, you should be forced to grow a pair and race him fairly.

[Marklar]

This thread will need many myattitude photoshops

[Marklar]

Anyway, my personal tolerance is the braking zone. If and only if you are ahead it is pretty much your corner, so I'm not that bothered if the squeezing is happening after there (would prefer to have nothing of that though), though before that (particulary on a straight) you have to leave room, otherwise an overtaking attempt is impossible to happen.

[PayasYouRace]

I've never been happy that squeezing out on corners has become acceptable. As far as I'm concerned of another car is alongside you anywhere on the track you should have to give him room. If the other guy has to lift to avoid a collision, then you should be in the wrong.

[senna da silva]

I agree with Nando.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=k_sMZG0MLcc

[jonpollak]

After you Claude.
Jp

[Kev00]

I've never been happy that squeezing out on corners has become acceptable. As far as I'm concerned of another car is alongside you anywhere on the track you should have to give him room. If the other guy has to lift to avoid a collision, then you should be in the wrong.

I have always thought that if you choose to defend the inside going into the corner then you should be prepared to take the inside line all the way round the corner, allowing space on the outside if required. Pushing the other guy out is just too easy.

[Clatter]

I hate that drivers are allowed to get away with a number of offences at the start on the basis that's it's all a bit busy and chaotic. If something is against the rules then that doesn't change because of the stage of the race.

[myattitude]

The drivers should play by the rules, and they should be as utterly ruthless with the rules as the rules allow them to be, hence why Rosberg was in the right in Austria. This 'rule ruthlessness' was one of the things I loved about Schumacher. Steward inconsistency in upholding the rules accurately makes playing to the rules difficult. At Hungary 2010, Rubens went off the track to pass, therefore he should of handed the place back to his master.

Edited by myattitude, 16 July 2016 - 09:33.

[Peat]

Racing Etiquette is a moveable feast due to inconsistent stewarding.

It used to be governed by the reluctance of drivers to willingly kill one another, but now that the cars are so safe it's like a football referee calling a foul.

[myattitude]

I should also say that if 2 cars are at about the same level of performance (i.e, no car damage or wrong weather tyres), then show me an overtake round the outside, and I'll show you a mistake.

[HP]

I should also say that if 2 cars are at about the same level of performance (i.e, no car damage or wrong weather tyres), then show me an overtake round the outside, and I'll show you a mistake.

.. from the driver on the inside you mean?

[myattitude]

.. from the driver on the inside you mean?

Yes. If they're at a similar level then really it's inexcusable to let someone overtake you round the outside.

Edited by myattitude, 16 July 2016 - 10:07.

[myattitude]

Anyway, my personal tolerance is the braking zone. If and only if you are ahead it is pretty much your corner, so I'm not that bothered if the squeezing is happening after there (would prefer to have nothing of that though), though before that (particulary on a straight) you have to leave room, otherwise an overtaking attempt is impossible to happen.

If you're creative enough, you can get away with 3 blocks under the 1-block rule. VES did it in Silverstone on the Hangar Straight. Usually you can only do 2 blocks though under this rule.

[AlexanderF1]

I was watching Indycar at Road america and the drivers on the inside sqeezed the outside driver so badly that the inside driver had 4 wheels off the outside part of the track and no penalties. In f1 its the age old problem of drivers pushing the rules to the limit so until they make a rule stating space must always be left on corner exit drivers will continue to spoil the show. Its the same with yellow flag rules. It needs changing but they are only following the current rules.

[f1paul]

Rubbing's Racing!!!!

[senna da silva]

Traditionally if a driver made a pass attempt and was able to get half a car length or more up the inside the driver on the outside would concede the corner. This however was when a crash had the implications of severe injury. I think the only way to ensure fair racing is to allow some space for each car on the track during a racing situation. One of the issues is that there is such poor peripheral visibility for the drivers these days. Another has been the poor stewarding in allowing transgressions such as pushing drivers off the track to exist. I have in the past said that a driver on the outside of a turn is in a perilous position and it is his responsibility as the car on the inside really holds the line, but I think the time has come due to aggressive defending to say that some racing space should be given at all times.

Edited by senna da silva, 16 July 2016 - 11:48.

[Clatter]

I was watching Indycar at Road america and the drivers on the inside sqeezed the outside driver so badly that the inside driver had 4 wheels off the outside part of the track and no penalties. In f1 its the age old problem of drivers pushing the rules to the limit so until they make a rule stating space must always be left on corner exit drivers will continue to spoil the show. Its the same with yellow flag rules. It needs changing but they are only following the current rules.

The rules are already there its the enforcing of them that's the problem.

[senna da silva]

Rubbing's Racing!!!!

 

Not something you typically want to do in open wheel cars.

[Clatter]

Traditionally if a driver made a pass attempt and was able to get half a car length or more up the inside the driver on the outside would concede the corner. This however was when a crash had the implications of severe injury. I think the only way to ensure fair racing is to allow some space for each car on the track during a racing situation. One of the issues is that there is such poor peripheral visibility for the drivers these days. Another has been the poor stewarding in allowing such transgressions such as pushing drivers off the track to exist. I have in the past said that a driver on the outside of a turn is in a perilous position and it is his responsibility as the car on the inside really holds the line, but I think the time has come due to aggressive defending to say that some racing space should be given at all times.

Its purely the stewarding afaic.

[Slowersofterdumber]

Yes. If they're at a similar level then really it's inexcusable to let someone overtake you round the outside.

Hamilton used to say that. Until Hungary 08 lap 1, turn 1. All it takes is the other guy respecting you on exit.

[pdac]

Traditionally if a driver made a pass attempt and was able to get half a car length or more up the inside the driver on the outside would concede the corner. This however was when a crash had the implications of severe injury. I think the only way to ensure fair racing is to allow some space for each car on the track during a racing situation. One of the issues is that there is such poor peripheral visibility for the drivers these days. Another has been the poor stewarding in allowing transgressions such as pushing drivers off the track to exist. I have in the past said that a driver on the outside of a turn is in a perilous position and it is his responsibility as the car on the inside really holds the line, but I think the time has come due to aggressive defending to say that some racing space should be given at all times.

 

I think it would help if the stewards refused to allow the many variations of "I didn't mean to, but I didn't have the grip I thought and couldn't hold the corner" when the driver on the inside pushes the guy on the outside off the track.

[Prost1997T]

 

I was watching Indycar at Road america and the drivers on the inside sqeezed the outside driver so badly that the inside driver had 4 wheels off the outside part of the track and no penalties. In f1 its the age old problem of drivers pushing the rules to the limit so until they make a rule stating space must always be left on corner exit drivers will continue to spoil the show. Its the same with yellow flag rules. It needs changing but they are only following the current rules.

 

If that was Helio Castroneves you were referring to, he was told to give up a position.

[senna da silva]

I think it would help if the stewards refused to allow the many variations of "I didn't mean to, but I didn't have the grip I thought and couldn't hold the corner" when the driver on the inside pushes the guy on the outside off the track.

 

Exactly, it should be treated as an error in judgement and driving.

[Clatter]

I think it would help if the stewards refused to allow the many variations of "I didn't mean to, but I didn't have the grip I thought and couldn't hold the corner" when the driver on the inside pushes the guy on the outside off the track.

The worst excuse in my book is "I had the racing line".

[PlatenGlass]

I agree with Nando.
 
https://www.youtube....h?v=k_sMZG0MLcc

Although it was tight in that case, I don't think a driver needs to leave any space if the driver behind doesn't have any part of their car alongside. You're allowed to drive down the edge of the track.

On a separate note, when the driver on the inside pushes the driver on the outside wide off the track, a lot of people think that's fine. But what if the driver on the outside just refuses to yield and they collide? Whose fault is that? Take this as the example (Japan 2015, Hamilton/Rosberg) - whose fault would it have been?

Edited by PlatenGlass, 16 July 2016 - 13:50.

[myattitude]

Hamilton used to say that. Until Hungary 08 lap 1, turn 1. All it takes is the other guy respecting you on exit.

Even leaving them the required room (car's width), you shouldn't lose a place to the guy on the outside unless you've made an error in judgement somewhere.

 

Although at the start you'd stand to lose more places on your inside by holding off someone on your outside.

[senna da silva]

Although it was tight in that case, I don't think a driver needs to leave any space if the driver behind doesn't have any part of their car alongside. You're allowed to drive down the edge of the track.

On a separate note, when the driver on the inside pushes the driver on the outside wide off the track, a lot of people think that's fine. But what if the driver on the outside just refuses to yield and they collide? Whose fault is that? Take this as the example (Japan 2015, Hamilton/Rosberg) - whose fault would it have been?

 

Apportioning blame in past events is not going to be useful in this discussion. My point stands, if there is a car alongside there should be space for that car. I've never been a fan of swerving on straights, taking a defensive line is one thing but to swerve violently is dangerous IMO.

Edited by senna da silva, 16 July 2016 - 14:20.

[Slowersofterdumber]

Even leaving them the required room (car's width), you shouldn't lose a place to the guy on the outside unless you've made an error in judgement somewhere.

 

 

I don´t really know what you´re arguing.

 

If you say that two drivers with equal pace are unlikely to fight at all since the one in front needs to mess up to even come under pressure, I entirely agree, even in the DRS days.

 

If you say that, once the driver ahead comes under pressure for whatever reason, he won´t ever be passed on the outside unless he makes a mistake during the fight, I strongly disagree. It´s perfectly possible, and in fact heading into many corners in the calendar fully alongside, I would rather be the guy outside.

 

When you enter a fast corner like 130R, Suzuka turn 1, or Hockenheim turn 1 from offline, you need to lift/brake SO much earlier than normal that the other guy will often simply sweep around the outside of you carrying more speed. It doesn´t need to be all that fast either, a corner like Les Combes allows the guy on the racing line during the braking zone (outside) to brake significantly later.

[Fatgadget]

This is just a rehash of most other bitching threads albeit under a different tag ..or am I missing something?

[myattitude]

I don´t really know what you´re arguing.

 

If you say that two drivers with equal pace are unlikely to fight at all since the one in front needs to mess up to even come under pressure, I entirely agree, even in the DRS days.

 

If you say that, once the driver ahead comes under pressure for whatever reason, he won´t ever be passed on the outside unless he makes a mistake during the fight, I strongly disagree. It´s perfectly possible, and in fact heading into many corners in the calendar fully alongside, I would rather be the guy outside.

 

When you enter a fast corner like 130R, Suzuka turn 1, or Hockenheim turn 1 from offline, you need to lift/brake SO much earlier than normal that the other guy will often simply sweep around the outside of you carrying more speed. It doesn´t need to be all that fast either, a corner like Les Combes allows the guy on the racing line during the braking zone (outside) to brake significantly later.

 

I'm not arguing anything at all buddy, I'm just making conversation.

 

But I offer you, show me an outside overtake (1 on 1) and I'll show you a mistake.

 

.

.

Edited by myattitude, 16 July 2016 - 18:40.

[Slowersofterdumber]

I'm not arguing anything at all buddy, I'm just making conversation.

 

But I offer you, show me an outside overtake (1 on 1) and I'll show you a mistake.

 

 

Everybody participating in a discussion argues something.

 

Given your response I think your view is that once the driver ahead comes under pressure for whatever reason, he won´t ever be passed on the outside unless he makes a mistake during the fight. You can start then by explaining what mistake Lewis made when Massa drove around him in Hungary 08.

[Counterbalance]

I'm not arguing anything at all buddy, I'm just making conversation.

 

But I offer you, show me an outside overtake (1 on 1) and I'll show you a mistake.

 

.

.

 

Show me a mistake, please.

 

 

[maximilian]

The fewer rules interfere with interesting racing, the better.  Racing is already too sanitized with lack of consequences for leaving the track, outstanding reliability, etc.   The only bit of uncertainty appeal we have left is when two drivers duke it out and shred a front wing/slice a rear tire every once in a while.  Just let them race.  If a driver is consistently dangerous, measures can be taken, but a couple of aggressive defenses or rough attacks are all good in my book, especially when nowadays they tend to just run wide on miles of asphalt anyways to rejoin the track as if nothing ever happened.

Edited by maximilian, 17 July 2016 - 04:17.

[tormave]

As long as the stewarding stays consistent and everyone knows the rules, I'm okay. A good example of the opposite is forcing another driver off the track when they try to overtake on the outside. It used to be okay for a long time, but now we've had 2 penalties in 2 races. So can you or can't you do it?

[myattitude]

Everybody participating in a discussion argues something.

 

Given your response I think your view is that once the driver ahead comes under pressure for whatever reason, he won´t ever be passed on the outside unless he makes a mistake during the fight. You can start then by explaining what mistake Lewis made when Massa drove around him in Hungary 08.

That wasn't a 1 on 1 because had Hamilton defended properly then others would have overtaken on his inside. But if they were on their own, his "mistake" would have been that he should have turned in much later, he didn't hang him out on entry.

 

Show me a mistake, please.

 

Nico was FAR too tight on entry, very bad positioning, he could have entered much wider out with the space he had.

 

 

Show me a mistake, please.

 

 

He was already fully ahead on the straight, he didn't overtake him round the corner.

 

I should probably qualify this offer by saying such an overtake should be where the inside driver has at least half his car or more alongside the outside car on entry to the corner, i.e. the outside driver overtakes literally around the corner.

Edited by myattitude, 17 July 2016 - 08:27.

[PayasYouRace]

I see this has turned into another episode of myattitude's Racing School. 

[Dr. Austin]

Racing Etiquette is a moveable feast due to inconsistent stewarding.

It used to be governed by the reluctance of drivers to willingly kill one another.................

 

<<<<WINNER>>>>

[Counterbalance]

That wasn't a 1 on 1 because had Hamilton defended properly then others would have overtaken on his inside. But if they were on their own, his "mistake" would have been that he should have turned in much later, he didn't hang him out on entry.

 

Nico was FAR too tight on entry, very bad positioning, he could have entered much wider out with the space he had.

 

 

 

He was already fully ahead on the straight, he didn't overtake him round the corner.

 

I should probably qualify this offer by saying such an overtake should be where the inside driver has at least half his car or more alongside the outside car on entry to the corner, i.e. the outside driver overtakes literally around the corner.

 

Diagrams, please. It's time for you to fire up Photoshop.

 

Or not.

[Dr. Austin]

There are too many points on this thread to address individually, so I will just explain how it was when I grew up.

 

I raced a variety of karts, which I understand is not the same thing as F1, but our code of conduct would apply to it well. Our karts went from 80 to 120mph, depending on the circuit.  The dedicated sprint racing tracks were shorter and we would top out about 70-80mph, but when we went to places like Road Atlanta or Road America, we were going so fast it was spooky.

 

This was in the early seventies before we were running bumpers and nerf bars, so your feet and wheels were totally exposed. If you ran over another guy's wheel, the wheel didn't just simply shear off ....... you usually popped the front up, the kart would do half a roll and you would land on your head with 250lbs of kart on top of you, and then you would slide to a stop leaving a trail of blood and skin behind you. This was worse on the street circuits because it was a lot like Isle Man. There was nothing to hit except for buildings, trees, telephone poles and barbed wire fences.

 

If you had an accident it was usually painful. As such when you were wheel to wheel, you thought less of what the rules were and more about how you were going to come out of it alive, adding to it the guy next to you was probably your friend. This made our code a little bit self enforcing.

 

It was fair to take away as much of the available road from the other guy as you can, and "available road" meant whatever road the other guy was not on, including his trajectory. We didn't have mirrors, so swerve blocking was difficult, and considered so dirty that usually the entire paddock was ready to beat your ass when the race was over. Nico Rosberg would not have lasted a single weekend because he would have suffered multiple beat downs after a stunt like he pulled in Barcelona. Most of the drivers would have stood in line to get a piece of that.

 

By the time you heard the guy coming up beside you, you didn't dare move over because you risked interlocking wheels, which would be a lottery for both of you. So, it was something we never even considered. It was unthinkable because you could very easily kill one of your friends, not to even mention yourself.

 

When fighting over a corner, positioning was important. If a guy got his wheel alongside your head, you could definitely see him, and were not allowed to cut him off. This was the same on entry as on exit. If you got a wheel inside another guy but not up to his head, you had to back out and let him take the line. If you got alongside his head, he had to give you room. This method made sense because if the guy was far enough alongside you that you could see him, you also game him room because you didn't want to collide with him.

 

You might think this was too regimented, but we made it work. There were a few guys I would even interlock wheels with in high speed corners, simply because we could trust each other. Sure, we had some nasty accidents, but it was never because someone was being unfair. Stuff happens, and then you go to the pub together. I carried this code into Formula Fords, and later, Atlantics, and it served me well. Racing was so dangerous back then that even people who didn't understand the code still raced each other fairly because they didn't want to die.

 

If anything, I tended to be conservative in defending, because I felt I could always get him back, and aggressive on overtaking because I knew I was racing mostly fair people. That's the problem with Formula One ..... no one plays fair. Nico and Lewis don't play fair with each other, which is why you see them colliding so often. If they just raced each other with a little respect they might bump every so often, but it wouldn't be a big deal.

 

Yes, I know. It's Formula One and not kindergarten. Fair is not part of formula One, but at some point you have to ask yourself if unfair competition is sporting. If not, and it's all about winning no matter how bad you have to abuse your competition, I guess that's fine. Let them kill each other with total impunity, but then never give me the smarmy-ass lecture about the importance of safety. If they don't want to compete safely, they don't deserve for us to put any more effort into making F1 safer for them.

 

Of course, this is the old world view from back when we were actually men. We took our chances in a very deadly era, but most importantly, we looked out for each other and did not deliberately put the other guy in a bad position. Any one of us could have died at any instant, so honorable men played fair. Full Stop.

 

This is why I think a lot of the Formula One safety discussion is so farcical. The drivers cry like little children when you present them with a magnificent circuit like Baku, because they don't want to stub their little toes on the narrow road up to the Castle. Bu-whaa! It's too dangerous! Then they go out and drive like possessed little grim reapers for two hours. It is hard to have respect for any of them except for guys like Vettel and Ricciardo who always seem to understand where the dividing line between hard and fair is. Verstappen seems to understand this as well, though it's a little early for him. Alonso is really good about racing cleanly.

 

While I am definitely not a motorcycle guy, I admire they way the men race at Isle of Man. Sure, it's a time trial, but the bikes end up running together anyway. You never, ever see people playing dirty with each other. It just doesn't happen because the consequences are too drastic. Imagine if one rider were to shove another off into a building. You could never live with that, so you play fair.

 

In Formula One, there are no consequences for dirty driving. The only fatality we have had on a formula One weekend over the last 22 years was utterly freak, so the cars and circuits are so safe the drivers feel no need to do anything but chop, block and swerve their way to victory. While I am all for safer racing, it is sad that making it safer has taken the sport out of it.

Edited by Dr. Austin, 17 July 2016 - 15:37.

[Dr. Austin]

One thing I´ve noticed in my brief time here is the enormous threads that erupt after accidents, and how often they´re very polarized by the fact that there are specific drivers involved. I get the feeling that the names of the drivers involved in an accident really trigger some emotional reactions that don´t allow fans to judge incidents in a rational way.

 

If there was an accident, the thread would be forty pages by now because most people stick up for their guy no matter what. Everyone has a opinion, which usually is formulated based off who they do or don't like. I guess that's ok, but it's not objective and it's certainly not rational.

 

However, when it comes to solutions, or a proper way to race with honor and sportsmanship, we're only 37 posts in. Clearly the vast majority of experts have never raced anything and have no clue about what is or isn't fair. So, when I rag on Rosberg one race, and then berate Hamilton the next, you can believe that is based off my own experience and sense of fair play that was developed in competition. I don't have any tolerance for dirty dangerous tricks no matter who is doing it. It's never right.

 

It does get a little complicated because things happen so fast, and then on the net it becomes a giant cluster argument with graphs and photoshops based off imaginary lines that have nothing to do with the rules or fair play. So, instead of making it so complicated, the way it was explained to me is that I should not do anything that I would feel were unfair if done to me.

 

That, and I felt like dirty driving was the same thing as cheating. If you cheat, you really haven't won anything except the race to throw your dignity and integrity away.

[Dr. Austin]

 

But I offer you, show me an outside overtake (1 on 1) and I'll show you a mistake.

 

.

.

 

Here's some pretty clean racing. I was actually surprised that Schumacher didn't simply turn left.

 

 

Edited by Dr. Austin, 17 July 2016 - 18:29.

[Slowersofterdumber]

That wasn't a 1 on 1 because had Hamilton defended properly then others would have overtaken on his inside.

 

WAT. They arrive side by side into the braking zone, with no one else with a remote chance to even participate in the action. Also, Hamilton DID defend, can´t you see he is going into the corner covering the inside?

 

By now I suspect that by "showing me a mistake" you meant fabricating one yourself. Anyway, one more chance for you to show me wrong:

 

[Dr. Austin]

WAT. They arrive side by side into the braking zone, with no one else with a remote chance to even participate in the action. Also, Hamilton DID defend, can´t you see he is going into the corner covering the inside?

 

By now I suspect that by "showing me a mistake" you meant fabricating one yourself. Anyway, one more chance for you to show me wrong:

 

 

That was some good, clean racing.

[myattitude]

Here's some pretty clean racing. I was actually surprised that Schumacher didn't simply turn left.

 

 

This is actually a very difficult one, well done. Here is MS's mistake: Schumacher seemed pressured by JV prowling for an inside dive that MS put his car directly in front of JV's face when he didn't need to block the inside line as much as he did. He should have angled the car more at "45'" so that his back wheels were pointing at JV and his own cornering would've been at a more optimal angle. If he positioned slightly more to the left and leave only 3/4 of a width up the inside (don't forget MS is not required to give a full width here), a dive wouldn't have been on for JV because he'd have an even tighter angle MS did plus 2 of his wheels would have been on the kerb and grass.

 

AND an outside attempt would be thwarted because Schumi

1) wouldn't have been so tight to the corner that his traction couldn't hack the steering angle causing him to back out of the throttle like he did,

2) would have been more on the grippier racing line.

 

 

JV's move may not even be attempted, because the angle would be very wide for JV. If you were staring at this, where would you go, keeping in mind the racing line?:

 

 

Terrific driving from JV though, I never normally rate him as any good. But that was great. That's how I fight T3 at Barca on the sims.

 

WAT. They arrive side by side into the braking zone, with no one else with a remote chance to even participate in the action. Also, Hamilton DID defend, can´t you see he is going into the corner covering the inside?

 

By now I suspect that by "showing me a mistake" you meant fabricating one yourself. Anyway, one more chance for you to show me wrong:

 

re: LH/FM, if LH hung out FM on entry (it would have to have been wide), the apex would have been an open goal for Heikki at least, think LH/KR at Fuji 2008 letting all those cars through because the apex was open. But the thing is, LH can't know at the start how bad it would be to put all your eggs against Massa, because the start is too chaotic to keep track of everybody else hence the start is not a 1 on 1 situation.

 

As far as the video, once NH was alongside, FA's positioning was terrible. When you're in that situation you MUST move over to the other car so that you are wheel to wheel like Mansell/Senna on the Barca straight. Think of man-marking in football, you stay close to your opponent like a magnet. Once your car is there, be prepared for the outside car to shuffle over more in reaction, in which case move over yourself more (remember to leave a car's width though), if the outside car responds or doesn't, now that you're wheel to wheel you have the more advantageous line, plus you can turn whenever you choose and the other car must now wait for you.

 

This is where he should have been:

 

Brake somewhere about 1/2-2/3s of maximum lateness to be ready for any switchback attempt at early braking from NH.

 

Alonso's mistake here is similar to Fisi/Kimi at Japan 2005 T1.

[PayasYouRace]

The only mistake I see is that you made the blanket statement that outside overtakes require a mistake from the defending driver and now you're doomed to defend it.

[Slowersofterdumber]

@myattitude

 

Great effort, I can see you put plenty of time there. However, I can refute it all in 15 seconds. I expect more tomorrow, good night

 

 

[Dr. Austin]

Here's some more heady driving...............

 

[Xentas]

Etiquette in which racing series? DTM, BTCC, STCC, CTCC, WTCC, TC2000 and many other tin top series out there, rubbing or leaning on other drivers is a common thing, ive even seen other drivers using other drivers as a braking marker and bump them out the way in a corner or brake into the side of them.

 

In Formula One, Indycar, GP2/3, Indy Lights, European Formula 3 and so on, there are clearly defined things a driver can and can not do, but somethings are still happening even if the rules don't specifically allow it.

 

In NASCAR and Brazilian Stock cars and so on, Bump drafting is a typical thing but only between rivals with the same manufacturer, but even drivers end up getting overly enthusiastic and end up wrecking half the field in one go and still the occasional brawl in the pits happens.

 

I am staying the driver etiquette is not always the case and stewards have to get involved at times, even so "dirty" driving doesn't always qualify a penalty or punishment either.

This stuff will always happen despite drivers agreements.

Edited by Xentas, 18 July 2016 - 12:18.

[Dr. Austin]

 

I am staying the driver etiquette is not always the case and stewards have to get involved at times, even so "dirty" driving doesn't always qualify a penalty or punishment either.

This stuff will always happen despite drivers agreements.

 

Dig up all the mile wide curbings and runoffs and put the grass back in, and move the barriers back where they were years ago. Then you will see all of this crap stop. The drivers feel so safe that they know they can chop, block and swerve with utterly no penalty from the stewards, and they are mostly unafraid of the consequences of crashing. 

 

Like I say, if they want to drive like stupid monkeys, give them some consequence. Then maybe they will grow a  sense of fair play, if for no other reason than survival. There is not a lot of point in providing a safe environment for people who are bent on behaving unsafely. Some people could hurt themselves in a padded room.

 

When the speed and the danger no longer makes the drivers at least a little bit afraid, it's not sport any more. It's easy to be brave when you know you can't get hurt.