43 replies to this topic

[f1paul]

It's a simple question but is the answer simple?

As far as I know F1 is the only motorsport that has an intermediate tyre. WEC's LMP1 class is the closest thing to an intermediate tyre with the so called 'slickermediates'. Should F1 just have a wet tyre and then the 3 other race weekend dry compounds?

 

 

[Clatter]

You could argue that they dont need more than one type of tyre full stop.

[myattitude]

I guess performance-wise they do because the lap time differences are huge. The way the safety car comes out when it rains, we hardly see full wets anymore, so if there is any tyre they don't need it would be that, but that would be a terrible sacrifice. I remember they used to have a 4th wet tyre beyond full wets, they were called "monsoon tyres" and only stopped being used about a decade ago. They need to drop the sill parc ferme rule, because it hinders teams from setting up the car properly for wet weather, and that's what made the monsoons go obsolete.

[Topsu]

I feel like intermediates should be the only wet tire. The race is redflagged anyway if there's a need for full-wets.

[PlatenGlass]

With no tyre war, there's no competitive pressure for it, so an intermediate is not essential. But whether it's preferable or not is another question.

[TomNokoe]

Does F1 need tyres?

[Marklar]

Does F1 have tyres?

[Seanspeed]

What is a tire anyways?  

[mangeliiito]

You can't top that can you..?

[TheRacingElf]

Wouldn't the better question have been; does F1 still need wet tyres?

 

They don't drive in the wet anymore anyway...

Edited by TheRacingElf, 16 July 2016 - 18:22.

[ANF]

[PistolPete]

The more tyres to select the more variability in strategy. So yes the intermediate tyre has a role.

 

I think the main problem is that the wet tyre mainly has its use, when its so wet that they pull out the safetycar. Do we need a tyre for driving behind a safetycar?

[SenorSjon]

It is because the wet is so poor, they rather have a go at intermediates. Even with aquaplaning, the intermediate is faster than the full wet.

[Vettelari]

Is it required to start the race on full wets when it is raining?

Since we never see anything more than driving behind the safety car in wet conditions, I would be tempted to start the race on intermediates every "wet" race knowing that by the time the safety car leaves the intermediate will be the tire of choice.

Why even bother using full wets unless following the safety car on intermediates is downright impossible?

Would be a hell of an opportunity for someone like STR (Sainz, OBVY), FI, or McLaren to steal a W, IMO.

Edited by Vettelari, 16 July 2016 - 22:28.

[Marklar]

Is it required to start the race on full wets when it is raining?
 

Yes, if you start behind the SC. Sporting Regulations 24.4 i

 

If the race is started behind the safety car because of heavy rain (see Article 39.16), or resumed in accordance with Article 42.5(a), the use of wet-weather tyres until the safety car returns to the pits is compulsory.

 

A penalty under Article 38.3(d) will be imposed on any driver who does not use wet weather tyres whilst the safety car is on the track at such times.

 

For your information: 38.3d is a 10 seconds stop and go penalty (time loss: a pitstop+10 seconds). In some cases I can even imagine that it is worth to take that penalty though, if you can save this pitstop and gain a bit time on the faster tyre on track. Well....

Edited by Marklar, 16 July 2016 - 22:32.

[Nonesuch]

Is it required to start the race on full wets when it is raining?
 

 

Yes, since 2008. Officially anyway.

 

Earlier on, the FIA race director threatened to disqualify Ferrari if they didn't fit the 'Extreme' wet weather tyres at the Fuji 2007 race.

[Vettelari]

Thanks for the reply! I figured that such a rule must exist. Otherwise somebody would've surely tried that by now either last season or this one.

[SR388]

What's a "tyre"?

And yes. Very important for F1.

Edited by SR388, 17 July 2016 - 15:16.

[maximilian]

You could argue that they dont need more than one type of tyre full stop.

 

Exactly.  Formula E's tire approach is best!  To hell with tires, just RACE!

 

And FFS finally make a tire that can run ovals in the wet.  This is 2016!

Edited by maximilian, 17 July 2016 - 03:32.

[Gorma]

Edited by Gorma, 17 July 2016 - 13:02.

[Kalmake]

Exactly.  Formula E's tire approach is best!  To hell with tires, just RACE!

 

And FFS finally make a tire that can run ovals in the wet.  This is 2016!

They can make a tire that works. NASCAR has tested on ovals in the wet. Main problem is poor visibility.

[FPV GTHO]

A couple of years ago they toyed with the idea of a single wet tyre that would wear down and perform like an intermediate. Even if they brought that back I think there would still be room for an intermediate though. A drying track might not need it but when it starts raining they probably still do. Not to mention quote often in winter testing they start on inters despite a dry track.

As for monsoon tyres, from what I can find they were just the Bridgestone Wets, as they called their intermediate a Wet. If they had a deeper treaded tyre now it's unlikely to be used thought as even if it could prevent aquaplaning it would just make the spray and visibility worse.

The current tyres I believe are 660mm tall for dry tyres and 670mm tall for both wets. Next year the dry tyres will be 670mm, inters 675mm and wets 680mm so I think that will naturally balance them out a little or at least bring the inter pace closer to dry pace.

Edited by FPV GTHO, 17 July 2016 - 08:14.

[ANF]

https://www.youtube....h?v=-iikUvXPKjE

Exactly. They tried the single wet weather tyre thing in 2003 and it didn't work out very well.

[f1paul]

What's a "tyre"?

I'm not American and I'm guessing you're american ...................sooooo

"Tire and tyre both mean a covering for a wheel, usually made of rubber.Tire is the preferred spelling in the U.S. and Canada. Tyre is preferred in most varieties of English outside North America"

[SenorSjon]

Iirc, the monsoon tyre had a deep groove down the middle to prevent aquaplaning. The amount of liter/s water they can manage of the current wet and intermediate tyres is quite poor.

[Gorma]

Exactly. They tried the single wet weather tyre thing in 2003 and it didn't work out very well.

They tried to save money, but that single wall destroyed a lot more than they would have ever saved.

[maximilian]

They can make a tire that works. NASCAR has tested on ovals in the wet. Main problem is poor visibility.

 

Again, in 2016, it's time to apply technology to this problem and get on with the show.

 

[Atreiu]

They only barely need one rain tyre for as long as Charlie/FIA/whatever remain so risk averse they'd rather neuter wet races.

[Gorma]

Again, in 2016, it's time to apply technology to this problem and get on with the show.

 

 That type of surface isn't made racing or for high speed driving. It is only usable on driveways, sidewalks and parking lots. It would crumble under the load of F1 cars. But still, something like that should be developed for racing circuits.

[Garndell]

It's the full wets that need to go (or at least change to a useful tyre).  Without the Intermediates we'd have the safety car on track until time for slicks or they'll all just follow the safety car into the pits.  When they were making the 2017 reg changes they should have made more effort to design the tyres and cars into functional multi-weather vehicles rather than the wimpy things we have now when a drop of water hits the track.

[Seanspeed]

We need to 

 

a) Get rid of Charlie Whiting

 

and/or 

 

b) Design the cars/tires so that they can run in the wet with less risk of aquaplaning.  

[FPV GTHO]

b) Design the cars/tires so that they can run in the wet with less risk of aquaplaning.

Like i said though, if you deal with the aquaplaning you just increase the spray. The water has to go somewhere afterall.

[PistolPete]

 

Yes, if you start behind the SC. Sporting Regulations 24.4 i

 

If the race is started behind the safety car because of heavy rain (see Article 39.16), or resumed in accordance with Article 42.5(a), the use of wet-weather tyres until the safety car returns to the pits is compulsory.

 

A penalty under Article 38.3(d) will be imposed on any driver who does not use wet weather tyres whilst the safety car is on the track at such times.

 

For your information: 38.3d is a 10 seconds stop and go penalty (time loss: a pitstop+10 seconds). In some cases I can even imagine that it is worth to take that penalty though, if you can save this pitstop and gain a bit time on the faster tyre on track. Well....

 

 

Interesting.. I assume you can do 10s penalty when you switch from intermediates to slicks. I dont get why noone take the change and puts on intermediate behind the safetycar then, especially the lesser teams that has less to loose by trying something alternatively.

[Marklar]

Interesting.. I assume you can do 10s penalty when you switch from intermediates to slicks. I dont get why noone take the change and puts on intermediate behind the safetycar then, especially the lesser teams that has less to loose by trying something alternatively.

No, you can't. A 10 second stop and go is basically a Drive Through with a 10 seconds stop (without changing tyres). But by starting on inters you are saving the switch from full wets to intermediates (basically you are serving this with that penalty) and you are until everyone is doing this pitstop on the probably fastest tyre. I'm amazed that nobody ever tried this.

Edited by Marklar, 17 July 2016 - 20:39.

[teejay]

Bring back grooved slicks! All bases covered.

[Talisker]

What exactly is the point in starting the race under the safety car anyway? It's not really starting the race. If the conditions are so terrible, i.e. it's raining, and Charlie reckons they can't race, then they shouldn't start at all. The safety car is just a fudge, a way of pretending they haven't completely bottled it. 

 

You know what, the whole not doing full race starts in the wet thing really annoys me. It's like how after Richard Reid tried to blow up a plane with explosives in his shoe, suddenly everyone has to take their shoes off at airport security. Do we care about belts? Bombs in underwear? No. Shoes. Because some bloke already tried it so it's a thing. Now because Jules Bianchi had a terrible tragic accident in the rain, we have to avoid rain, because dying in a wet race is a thing. Actually if you asked Senna I'm sure he'd tell you that the dry can be pretty dangerous too and we shouldn't race in that. Actually he wouldn't, because he wasn't an idiot. 

 

Sorry for the rant.

[Kalmake]

I haven't noticed any change in wet SC start policy after the Bianchi accident. It's been the same for about 15 years. They don't start from the grid in the wet, because the spray is blinding.

 

I feel there has been a change on how long it takes for the SC to leave. Would be nice to see a statistic.

[phrank]

 That type of surface isn't made racing or for high speed driving. It is only usable on driveways, sidewalks and parking lots. It would crumble under the load of F1 cars. But still, something like that should be developed for racing circuits.

In the Netherlands we have this stuff for like 10 years on our highways, it's always a shock to drive abroad in the rain with all the spray and standing water. I am sure this can be applied to F1 too. It would not be a bad investment too, seeing the disaster the of the British GP was.

Edited by phrank, 18 July 2016 - 11:18.

[Clrnc]

The more tyre compounds the better as it mix up the grid and allows variation. I personally love the inters because drivers struggles on it and we can see their skill differences. 

 

The main problem with f1 nowadays are not tyres, but the management and race director. They are too scared to take responsibility and allows adult racing. They treat them like kids. 

[Bleu]

No, you can't. A 10 second stop and go is basically a Drive Through with a 10 seconds stop (without changing tyres). But by starting on inters you are saving the switch from full wets to intermediates (basically you are serving this with that penalty) and you are until everyone is doing this pitstop on the probably fastest tyre. I'm amazed that nobody ever tried this.

Stop/go-penalty has to be taken under racing conditions (=not when SC is on the track) so basically in a race like Silverstone, if someone had done that would have lost almost instantly 6-8 seconds more time by doing stop/go compared to normal tyre change.

[Marklar]

Stop/go-penalty has to be taken under racing conditions (=not when SC is on the track) so basically in a race like Silverstone, if someone had done that would have lost almost instantly 6-8 seconds more time by doing stop/go compared to normal tyre change.

Yup and before that you are on the faster tyres and making up all the difference. I can see this being an advantage in some cases

[Anderis]

You can pit and change your tyres for inters as soon as SC comes in, so you aren't on the faster tyre even for a moment.

 

Even if you would be on the faster tyre for one lap, it would require the track to be almost dry to make inters 8 seconds faster on a lap than full wets. Thankfully, nobody is mad enough yet to keep SC on the track for so long.

 

I think there's a good reason that nobody tried it. We've seen worse things done by teams to gain an advantage. But you have to see an actual advantage in it.

[BuddyHolly]

I feel like intermediates should be the only wet tire. The race is redflagged anyway if there's a need for full-wets.

 

Pretty much this^.   Full wet races have gone and we'll never see another Donnington 93 or Spain 1996.

 

Way to go Charlie..  nice legacy you have there

[Marklar]

You can pit and change your tyres for inters as soon as SC comes in, so you aren't on the faster tyre even for a moment.

This depends. Some teams are pitting immediately, but some think that the wet tyre is for now the faster tyre and continue and some others are waiting perhaps to change immediately to the slicks or pull a gap first and then changing. Again, in some cases (depending on car and track conditions) I see scenarios where it might turn out to be an advantage. And if you are last on the grid or something then I see no reason to not try it.