16 replies to this topic

[Starchild]

There were always talks about how tall and heavy drivers (Webber, Hulkenberg) are in disadvantage in F1. I guess it's the same in junior single seaters series, right?

I just wonder how much pronounced is that? How much advantage small and light drivers have / how much disadvantage heavy drivers have?

 

Yesterday I watched Formula Renault 2.0. Lando Norris is really tiny compared to his rivals. They are some 15-20kg heavier than him... How much advantage he has because of that?

Or last year in MSA Formula where he won championship: http://cdn-2.motorsp...orris-and-d.jpg

 

But on the other side, for example Ocon and Verstappen were taller and heavier than most of their rivals, but didn't seemed that they were in any disadvantage because of that at all...

 

[Seanspeed]

It'd be really useful to know what kind of ballast allowances and regulations junior series use before we could answer this question. 

[Marklar]

It is always an advantage, especially if everyone is driving a similar car as in junior series. But the minimum weight includes the driver IIRC and you cant play as advantageous with the weight distribution as in F1. And the impact on the Center of Gravity is not as important as in a F1 car I think, so I tend to say that it doesnt matter as much, but I'm no expert.

Edited by Marklar, 18 July 2016 - 17:18.

[Prost1997T]

I can't speak for other series, but this is how it works for Indy Lights (and presumably USF2000/Pro Mazda run by the same promoter):

 

14.36. Weight

(a) The minimum weight of the car includes fuel, all lubricants and coolants but does not include the driver or
driver equivalency weight. Minimum weights are as follows:

(1) Speedways - 1375 pounds (623.6 kilograms)
(2) Road, street and short ovals - 1395 pounds (632.7 kilograms)

(b) All drivers will be ballasted to a weight of 150 pounds (68 kilograms). Any driver weighing less must add
weight (up to a maximum of 35 pounds) to the car in the location provided by the chassis manufacturer.
This shall be known as the driver equivalency weight. All ballast shall be installed with a Series
representative present, who shall apply a seal once fitted.

© Any driver weighing more than 150 pounds (68 kilograms) will be permitted to reduce the overall weight of
the car to help achieve the driver equivalency weight.

(d) Drivers will be weighed at random and Teams may be requested to adjust the chassis or driver equivalency
weight at any time.

(e) Any Entrant not following the guidelines regarding chassis and driver equivalency weight will be subject to
penalties.

 

[ensign14]

Potentially a huge advantage.  It is surmised that size is one reason why Roberto Moreno was extremely successful in lower formulae - beat Jones and Piquet in the Australian GP when it was held to a low-power formula, champion in F3000 - but flattered to deceive in F1.  Compare his one appearance for Lotus - DNQing in a race-winning car - with that of Geoff Lees.   The extra power and longer races were more physically gruelling.  He was better off in CART where there were yellow flags and (on ovals) more constant G forces.

[PlatenGlass]

I've said this before, but before 1995, F1's weight limit didn't include the driver, so if you were lighter than another driver that was basically free lap time. And it arguably puts the performances of Prost (light) and Mansell (heavy) in a different heavy light.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 18 July 2016 - 22:45.

[oetzi]

When I was young driver weight was a massive thing in junior stuff. No idea how it works now.

Guessing height's still a problem though.

Edited by oetzi, 18 July 2016 - 23:56.

[oetzi]

I've said this before, but before 1995, F1's weight limit didn't include the driver, so if you were lighter than another driver that was basically free lap time. And it arguably puts the performances of Prost (light) and Mansell (heavy) in a different heavy light.

Aren't you glad nobody told Nige he could just lay off the pies so he tried to do it with chippiness?

I am

[Prost1997T]

Guessing height's still a problem though.

 

Dean Stoneman is reportedly 6 foot 1 inches and still comfortably fits in an Indy Lights car. Several others are close to 6 foot tall. 6 foot 2 Joel Miller (Mazda's test\factory driver) can fit in the new USF2000 chassis.

[MattPete]

I sometimes wondered if Cristiano Da Matta's problem was that he was too small (I remember him doing a commercial where he stated he was 130lbs).  Yes, he had a weight advantage, but at times he seemed to struggle compared to the larger guys.

[teejay]

Funnily enough watching the 2002 Champcar/Cart/Indycarsplit series atm - they introduced the rule mid season to include driver weight to remove the weight advantage. Da Matta was having a great season, and specifically mentioned that someone like Paul Tracy or Andretti simply didn't have the build to get that small.

 

These days its all equal with most series adding/removing ballast to meet the numbers. 

[HaydenFan]

Dean Stoneman is reportedly 6 foot 1 inches and still comfortably fits in an Indy Lights car. Several others are close to 6 foot tall. 6 foot 2 Joel Miller (Mazda's test\factory driver) can fit in the new USF2000 chassis.

 

Excessive height is a factor. Remember Minardi essentially built their '04 car for his 6 foot 4 inch frame. F1 design has allowed for more freedom for a taller driver. Mark Webber never seemed to struggle. In the 80's a big reason Tommy Kendall didn't do much in single seaters was due to his over 6 foot height. 

 

Weight will always be the bigger issue. Coulthard admitted to an eating disorder in his youth, and I strongly believe many other drivers have had the same issue. At the top level you saw the likes of Paul Tracy, Montoya, previously mentioned Mansell. 

 

In the lower ranks, Formula 4/ Formula Renault are not very heavy cars. Also remember, many (ok, they all) came from the karting ranks. I tried karting, and at 14 I was already 5'8 and 150 pounds. Let's just say, I could compete with the mid pack. Ultimately talent will rise to the top, but even still; if you're the kid who's much bigger than the rest, you will find yourself at a huge disadvantage. 

 

Weight won't be the same for a driver like it is in gymnastics (which is a very scary sport in that aspect). 

[Prost1997T]

Formula 1 is F1, this thread about is junior series.

 

As I said, I can't speak for F4 etc, but in MRTI you aren't disadvantaged by being heavy or tall. Stoneman's wins this year prove that (one of them was on an oval).

[Vesuvius]

Lighter weight is huge advatage, for example Webber suffered against Vettel, yes they use ballast but that can be but to the car so that it actually helps the balance as well.

[messy]

I sometimes wondered if Cristiano Da Matta's problem was that he was too small (I remember him doing a commercial where he stated he was 130lbs). Yes, he had a weight advantage, but at times he seemed to struggle compared to the larger guys.

Definitely - probably moreso in MotoGP where someone like Dani Pedrosa simply doesn't have the power to ride the way some of the other riders do, but I do wonder how someone like Lando Norris is going to cope when the cars get more physically demanding and powerful. He's tiny.

I was too big. I used to race a bit, and as a teenager desperate to get into F1 and so on (like everyone) it was gutting to find that I was too tall, too heavy and too unfit as well as too poor and not talented enough. Apart from all that it was all systems go.

Edited by messy, 19 July 2016 - 11:47.

[CountDooku]

When I kart (100% amateur)  it is a massive headache. I'm very often 15-20 kgs heavier than the best racers in my group and that's a pain as you always start with a massive handicap. Not to mention that as a % of the total weight in karting, it's much greater than F1 or junior single seaters. 

[SpeedRacer`]

I wonder if this is the reason why certain drivers sometimes look more competitive when they reach F1 compared to beforehand - Hill and Coulthard spring to mind, with Sato the opposite.  Why would any series have a regulation where the total weight wouldn't include the driver?