43 replies to this topic

[Bob Riebe]

This brief bit says Holden is stopping producing cars.

Now I heard the rwd cars were stopping but I did not know they were going to stop making cars entirely.

 

Is this true?

 

http://www.macsmotor...963/#more-51442

[BRG]

Have no fear, Holden cars will still be made, just in the UK by Vauxhall rather than in Australia.  

[Bob Riebe]

Have no fear, Holden cars will still be made, just in the UK by Vauxhall rather than in Australia.  

OMG --  they will all be Ford.

Fix or repair daily!

 

Well thank God they will not be made by Chevy because on a quite night you can hear a Chevy rusting.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 29 July 2016 - 19:39.

[Greg Locock]

They will still sell cars badged as Holden. They've done that for a long time with excellent cars like the Astra and rather less distinguished product like the captiva. Basically gmh will be a sales and marketing division, selling imports from China Korea and Europe for the most part. As a sop to various subsidies they have received the design studio remains open, albeit with no engineering backup. They've also decided not to sell off their proving ground at Lang-lang. I'd love to know the logic there, shipping cars around the world to proving grounds is a decidedly expensive business, and Lang-lang is not very special.

Incidentally Ford stops manufacturing in Oz in October, but our product engineering group is expanding, partly on the back of Ranger and Everest, but also a lot of localisation of stuff for China and fairly thorough redesigns for the whole region. It's not as much fun as working on falcon, but if you look at the rear suspension on Everest you'll see the spirit lives on.

Edited by Greg Locock, 29 July 2016 - 21:21.

[Lee Nicolle]

Holden have always sold models either not designed locally or just plain imported. Many of which have been lemons. The local cars were generally better, even the locally assembled imported models are appreciably better in finish and build quality.

 

Ford too have had their imported stuff, again many which are lemons also. As Mitsubishi also did too.

 

Now we will get all the imported often inferior cars, Aussie motoring costs are about to get a lot higher and the use by of cars more frequent too. Local cars are so called inferior,,,, but you see lots of 30 y/o ones getting around whereas you struggle to see 15 y/o imports left on the roads.

[BRG]

Now we will get all the imported often inferior cars

 

Don't be so negative, they might be superior products.  You lot sound just like the British did when those cheap and nasty, rubbishy Japanese (first) motorbikes and then cars came on the market in the UK. We soon learnt the truth....

[imaginesix]

Don't be so negative, they might be superior products.  You lot sound just like the British did when those cheap and nasty, rubbishy Japanese (first) motorbikes and then cars came on the market in the UK. We soon learnt the truth....

It's called chauvinism, and it's likely quite a bit more repugnant in person for those who happen to look different or have the wrong accent.

[Greg Locock]

Back in the hay-day of falcon and commodore the assumption was that the unique Australian conditions required a unique Australian car. Camry put paid to that. The really consistent failure with imports is the A/C system. We have a test that involves parking in the sun, getting the car nice and toasty, then jump in, start the engine, and time how long it takes to get bearable. That one test is a great reason not to work in climate control.

[mariner]

Ive not driven a Holden or Falcon but did drive a Toyota and Hyundai in OZ. The Hyundai impressed me more than the Toyota actually.

 

I know Holdens were shipped to Middle East so I imagine the A/C is good.

 

I've always thought US cars had the best A/C. That instant blast of cold air on "max" and water pouring from the evaporator. The first time I saw that I thought the heater hose had burst!

 

My last two cars have been , essentially US - Cadillac and Ford Mondeo/Fusion. I get the impression that the instant cold of older US cars has been traded off for fuel efficiency or weight etc. Still super cold air but it takes while to get cold.

[Canuck]

When we lived in Dubai, I regularly drove 3 different vehicles - a Dodge Ram, a Nissan Patrol (which, coming from Canada I'd never seen before) and an Isuzu Trooper. The Patrol had vastly superior A/C over the Dodge - it was cold instantly and stayed that way while the Dodge was only sufficient in the summer sun if it was moving, which even 15 years ago, meant the rush-hour commute was a sweaty affair. I'd never been so impressed by a Nissan.

I only have two memories of the Trooper - I was pleasantly surprised by it, having what we'll politely call Big-Three chauvinism, and it was the first vehicle to have power folding mirrors that we'd driven. I even looked for one when we landed back in Canuckistan to no avail.

[Bob Riebe]

When we lived in Dubai, I regularly drove 3 different vehicles - a Dodge Ram, a Nissan Patrol (which, coming from Canada I'd never seen before) and an Isuzu Trooper. The Patrol had vastly superior A/C over the Dodge - it was cold instantly and stayed that way while the Dodge was only sufficient in the summer sun if it was moving, which even 15 years ago, meant the rush-hour commute was a sweaty affair. I'd never been so impressed by a Nissan.

What was used in the a/c system?

I just picked up a new used 1978 Oldsmobile Delta 88; the only major item was it needed a new compressor.

I bought eight cans of R12 in Hong Kong and they are on their way.

I refilled the 84 Olds I am now driving with R12 last year and it a/c is vastly superior to my sig's. 04 Mercury.

The Olds is cold and stays that way, the Mercury is like you said, OK as long as the engine running hard but merely tolerable at idle.

[Canuck]

It was a newish (at the time) Dodge so I assume it was not R12. The Patrol was a 2-door Y60 variant of unknown year so it could have been either I suppose. Perhaps that was the primary difference.

[Robin Fairservice]

From 1969 to 1971 we lived in Sri Lanka (Ceylon then) and in our office we had 4 Holden Sedans with 6 cylinder engines, 3 Toranas, and one Viva.  I remember that the Holdens were delivered without air conditioning, nor heaters!  Hence, no fans and it got very interesting in raining hot weather with total misting up of all windows.

[Wuzak]

Ive not driven a Holden or Falcon but did drive a Toyota and Hyundai in OZ. The Hyundai impressed me more than the Toyota actually.

 

Depending on the model, the Toyota may have been built in Oz.

 

Toyota are stopping production in Australia next year also.

[Lee Nicolle]

Back in the hay-day of falcon and commodore the assumption was that the unique Australian conditions required a unique Australian car. Camry put paid to that. The really consistent failure with imports is the A/C system. We have a test that involves parking in the sun, getting the car nice and toasty, then jump in, start the engine, and time how long it takes to get bearable. That one test is a great reason not to work in climate control.

How did the Camry put paid to that? Take one out in the country and they fall to bits yet alone front drive being unacceptable in those conditions. You probably see about one Camry registered to country adresses, the rest of the passenger cars are Falcon and Commodores. Which actually became less desireable as the cars got lower and more sports car like. The rest [most] of the viechles are Landcruiser, Hilux, Patrol, Pajero, Prado.

Camrys are 'oh what a feeling snooze!

Once upon a time motor cyclists used to have Volvo aware rider, these days it is Camry aware rider.

I caught a Camry cab Friday, 320000 km, the wheel bearings were all worn out, the tranny flared and it had a bird under the bonnet cheeping. Piece of ****.

The Falcon cabs do 600000 km usually without much real problems if they are serviced  properly. I drove an  ex Melbourne FG factory gas Ford  in lovely yellow recently, the owner wanted way too much as a trade but it did actually drive very well.

From what I gather the Camry and Prius are sent to scrap as they have no worthwhile use.

[Lee Nicolle]

From 1969 to 1971 we lived in Sri Lanka (Ceylon then) and in our office we had 4 Holden Sedans with 6 cylinder engines, 3 Toranas, and one Viva.  I remember that the Holdens were delivered without air conditioning, nor heaters!  Hence, no fans and it got very interesting in raining hot weather with total misting up of all windows.

Torana 6 of that period were a modified lengthened Viva.  In reality a bloody awful car but they really lended them selves for modification and could be bloody quick as race and rally cars in the period

Mine ended up a little overkill with a 6 litre Chev!  and it was still far more Holden than a V8Supercar has been for near 20 years

[Wuzak]

How did the Camry put paid to that? Take one out in the country and they fall to bits yet alone front drive being unacceptable in those conditions. You probably see about one Camry registered to country adresses, the rest of the passenger cars are Falcon and Commodores. Which actually became less desireable as the cars got lower and more sports car like. The rest [most] of the viechles are Landcruiser, Hilux, Patrol, Pajero, Prado.

Camrys are 'oh what a feeling snooze!

Once upon a time motor cyclists used to have Volvo aware rider, these days it is Camry aware rider.

I caught a Camry cab Friday, 320000 km, the wheel bearings were all worn out, the tranny flared and it had a bird under the bonnet cheeping. Piece of ****.

The Falcon cabs do 600000 km usually without much real problems if they are serviced  properly. I drove an  ex Melbourne FG factory gas Ford  in lovely yellow recently, the owner wanted way too much as a trade but it did actually drive very well.

From what I gather the Camry and Prius are sent to scrap as they have no worthwhile use.

 

Australia is one of the most urbanised countries in the world.

 

"Country addresses" are not a huge market in Australia for vehicles.

[Greg Locock]

That's correct. The image of bush bashing beer drinking ockers has absolutely nothing useful to do with selling new cars.

 

Anyway, Camry passes our durability tests just fine. If taxi drivers don't maintain them properly that's their lookout. 

[Wuzak]

Greg, I guess the idea of needing cars suitable for Australian conditions is carried over from the times before Australia had modern freeways. And probably hasn't been applicable since the '80s/'90s.

[imaginesix]

Camrys are 'oh what a feeling snooze!

I caught a Camry cab Friday, 320000 km, the wheel bearings were all worn out, the tranny flared and it had a bird under the bonnet cheeping. Piece of ****.
The Falcon cabs do 600000 km usually without much real problems if they are serviced  properly. I drove an  ex Melbourne FG factory gas Ford  in lovely yellow recently, the owner wanted way too much as a trade but it did actually drive very well.

I see you're no longer stuck in the 50s and have moved up to the 80s

 

https://youtu.be/D6MBG0Kd0J0

 

These days as you know, nobody can compete with Ford "Quality Is Job 1". By quality, they mean "improved customer quality".

 

https://youtu.be/UEB6l6YUx7E

Edited by imaginesix, 08 August 2016 - 17:20.

[Lee Nicolle]

That's correct. The image of bush bashing beer drinking ockers has absolutely nothing useful to do with selling new cars.

 

Anyway, Camry passes our durability tests just fine. If taxi drivers don't maintain them properly that's their lookout. 

There is a LOT of country people you have just offended. Millions do live in rural parts of Australia. Seemingly forgotten by vehicle manufacturers as well as politicians! 

And I doubt you will find many Camrys there at all. But quite a few bug and mud splattered Holdens and Fords.

As for the cab, it was near 'rooted' at half the km that the Fords [and some Dunnydores too] have done with far less maintence. And it was a major cab comany too. 

I do know a small operator who was talked into a Prius and hated it. He has replaced it with an ex Govt dedicated gas FG. Which is on the road earning instead of at the Toymota dealership being fixed at astronomical hourly rates. As they reputedly are the only ones equipped to do so.

[imaginesix]

Seemingly forgotten by vehicle manufacturers as well as politicians!

Anyone stuck in the past is gonna get forgotten by the system. Make your own car company, and your own government while you're at it. But beware! That'll leave you with only the neighbouring clans to blame for all your ills.

[Wuzak]

Millions do live in rural parts of Australia.

 

Maybe.

 

But nowhere near as many who live in the cities.

 

Australia's population is approximately 90% urban. Which means around 2-2.5 million don't live in cities and around 22 million do.

[Nathan]

I caught a Camry cab Friday, 320000 km, the wheel bearings were all worn out, the tranny flared and it had a bird under the bonnet cheeping. Piece of ****.

The Falcon cabs do 600000 km usually without much real problems if they are serviced  properly. 

 

Did you see that Camry's service records??..

[Canuck]

As for the cab, it was near 'rooted' at half the km that the Fords [and some Dunnydores too] have done with far less maintence.

How the hell could you possibly know that? You have absolutely no idea how much maintenance that car has been given, or not given, never mind relative to the broader fleet of taxis on the road. Senseless, meritless statement.

We have entirely different but equally forbidding areas in Canadastan I would think, and the solution is very, very simple. You don't buy sedans when you live in SUV / pick-up territory. You don't buy a fork and complain that its a **** knife.

[Bob Riebe]

There is a LOT of country people you have just offended. Millions do live in rural parts of Australia. Seemingly forgotten by vehicle manufacturers as well as politicians! 

And I doubt you will find many Camrys there at all. But quite a few bug and mud splattered Holdens and Fords.

As for the cab, it was near 'rooted' at half the km that the Fords [and some Dunnydores too] have done with far less maintence. And it was a major cab comany too. 

I do know a small operator who was talked into a Prius and hated it. He has replaced it with an ex Govt dedicated gas FG. Which is on the road earning instead of at the Toymota dealership being fixed at astronomical hourly rates. As they reputedly are the only ones equipped to do so.

I guess that maybe when Chevrolet and Toyota joint produced a car there was a good reason it was called a Toylet. That crapper made the Vega and Chevette look like a good idea.

[Greg Locock]

Lee-how many of those millions buy or ever bought new sedans? Just about none.

[Dipster]

Lee-how many of those millions buy or ever bought new sedans? Just about none.

I think Greg makes a very valid point here.

 

Car manufacturers anywhere are really only interested in new car buyers. And from my many travels in Oz I have to admit that the only new vehicles I ever saw in the "country" (I thought you guys liked to call it "The Bush"!) were mostly rentals driven by visitors like me! So I doubt that the country folk interest the manufacturers much, if at all.......

 

As for Holden ceasing production well, would it matter? I thought there is over production of vehicles worldwide. Others will easily take up the slack, particularly I suggest, the Koreans.

[Charlieman]

Australia's population is approximately 90% urban. Which means around 2-2.5 million don't live in cities and around 22 million do.

I'm a Brit so shoot me down nicely, please. The population of Australia who might require a rough off roader is about 3 million -- 2 million who live in hard places and 1 million who live in soft places but work elsewhere, or they have family somewhere else.

 

Usage is about 1.5 person per vehicle and a vehicle life is 10 years or so (for its stressful existence). 200,000 Australians buy a serious off road vehicle each year knowing that it will have a tough existence. I don't know whether that is a big enough market to design Australian cars.

[Greg Locock]

Exactly. They buy off roaders or trucks, not dunnydoors or falcons, new. Where i live, twenty five minutes from town, i can commute in an Astra, but anything without a lockable diff or AWD is unable to use our driveway or our bushfire escape road for several months of the year. Ground clearance and tires are also an issue. Sure, people bomb about in old Falcons, but not new ones.

[Lee Nicolle]

How the hell could you possibly know that? You have absolutely no idea how much maintenance that car has been given, or not given, never mind relative to the broader fleet of taxis on the road. Senseless, meritless statement.

We have entirely different but equally forbidding areas in Canadastan I would think, and the solution is very, very simple. You don't buy sedans when you live in SUV / pick-up territory. You don't buy a fork and complain that its a **** knife.

Bloody hell, major cab company who do look after their cars at least to a mininum standard. Unlike some of the 'contractor' cabs.

Since I have bought and sold over 2500 cars I can hear noises and feel viabrations that should not be there.

As for Camry, over rated car. Not nearly as good as all the waffling.  Still ok mechanised transport but not a car. Will they do 600k? If they do how much higher is the maiuntenance costs than the Ford?

As for the 600k Melbourne cab FG, it was a far nicer car to ride in. Drove extremely well, just the customer wanted about 3 times its actual value

[Greg Locock]

Anybody like to take a punt on the distribution of vehicle odo readings when scrapped? The 600000km car is a red herring in my opinion.

[Canuck]

Bloody hell, major cab company who do look after their cars at least to a mininum standard. Unlike some of the 'contractor' cabs.
Since I have bought and sold over 2500 cars I can hear noises and feel viabrations that should not be there.

You said the car was in worse shape, at half the mileage, with far more maintenance done. I do wasn't questioning your ability to discern rattles and clanks or general condition, but the maintenance done that still resulted in a trashed car. Are you saying here that you actually do have first hand knowledge of its service history? In that case, I apologise.

[Magoo]

On my trips to Australia I would do my best to obtain a local vehicle, usually a Holden Commodore. Very nice cars with some American in their feel despite the RWD and IRS. 

 

I understand why Australia's native manufacturers must go away, but it's still a shame to me. The automotive world will be less rich without them. 

[Greg Locock]

It will be interesting to track new car prices since the tarriff reductions.

[GreenMachine]

It will be interesting to track new car prices since the tarriff reductions.

 

Yes.  It will also be interesting to see what the effect on prices the cessation of local manufacturing will have. As a high cost manufacturing country, the pricing of the local product will have had an influence of the pricing of the imported product. While comparisons are difficult, there is some evidence of equivalent imports being priced higher in Australia (significantly higher in some cases) compared to other markets.  When the market becomes fully imported, will it be a highly competitive market, including a high degree of price competition, or will it be dominated by cartel-like behaviour?  Speaking academically of course, we know that car companies would never resort to illegal behaviours ...

[Dipster]

On my trips to Australia I would do my best to obtain a local vehicle, usually a Holden Commodore. Very nice cars with some American in their feel despite the RWD and IRS. 

 

I understand why Australia's native manufacturers must go away, but it's still a shame to me. The automotive world will be less rich without them. 

I once rented a Commodore during a visit.

 

Agreed, nice car. But wasn`t it basically similar to the European Opel (Commodore too I think) and Vauxhall (Senator?)? different motor for sure but I think the structure was very similar, no? I thought RWD suited the bigger motor well.

[Canuck]

When companies save money in manufacturing / production costs, they pass those on to the consumer? Surely ye jest!

[Dipster]

I once rented a Commodore during a visit.

 

Agreed, nice car. But wasn`t it basically similar to the European Opel (Commodore too I think) and Vauxhall (Senator?)? different motor for sure but I think the structure was very similar, no? I thought RWD suited the bigger motor well.

Thinking about this wasn`t there also a Cadillac version of the same basic car  for the US and Canada?

[Greg Locock]

There was a long time ago, the Cadillac Catera, based on the Omega, and built at Russellheim. Lotus developed an Omega for the American market, in the eighties, but it wasn't for cadillac as it used that horrible 90 degree V6- I did the powertrain NVH on it and hated every second. The prototype got written off by the lead engineer on it and I think that terminated the project (and his job).

 

 

Various versions of the  Commodore were largely based on the Omega although I don't know if the parts would swap over. By eye the chassis was identical

[saudoso]

The Omega name was dragged up to 2011 here in BR with GM importing Holdens and rebranding them after the original german based Omega was discontinued.

[Lee Nicolle]

The Omega name was dragged up to 2011 here in BR with GM importing Holdens and rebranding them after the original german based Omega was discontinued.

Actually the base model Commodores here are branded Omega, then Berlina and then Calais on the luxury scale with the sporty models generally based on upmarket Berlina.

[Lee Nicolle]

It will be interesting to track new car prices since the tarriff reductions.

Ever increasing, the local manufacturers have been pushed out.

[Lee Nicolle]

You said the car was in worse shape, at half the mileage, with far more maintenance done. I do wasn't questioning your ability to discern rattles and clanks or general condition, but the maintenance done that still resulted in a trashed car. Are you saying here that you actually do have first hand knowledge of its service history? In that case, I apologise.

Errr read the post. A major cab co who do the maintenance.