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One lesson motor racing can definitely learn from the Olympics


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#1 ensign14

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 22:28

Just watched one of the most thrilling races this year of any sort.  The final of the men's team pursuit cycling.

 

For those who do not know what that's about, you have two teams of four that start either side of the velodrome.  The idea is to catch the other team up inside 4,000 metres.  Hence pursuit.  In practice this rarely happens in an Olympic final, so the result is on the time.

 

Not all four need to finish though.  The time is taken from the third bike.  What this means is that someone usually does a bit more work than the other three, breaking the air and creating the necessary slipstream, and drops out near the end.  They take turns up front, of course, and the transition is a work of art, trying to keep the same speed and momentum without losing touch with your team-mates - or worse, taking them out.

 

The final was Britain v Australia.  Britain had a bad start and Australia got a lead of 0.7s at half-distance.  But their fourth rider dropped out earlier than expected, which slowed the Aussies.  Britain then caught back and back, and took a tiny lead with a couple of laps left - when the fourth British rider dropped back, and, on the final transition, a gap appeared in the British threesome.

 

But Australia had gone too fast, too soon, and Britain put in a monster final lap for a world record.

 

The lesson?

 

There was zero overtaking action in the race, other than against the clock.  The crowd oohed when the Australian lead dropped to 0.01s and cheered when Britain overtook (obviously a very British crowd). 

 

Nobody thought "I can't follow this, this is rubbish, I have no idea who is winning."

 

Instead everyone was absorbed, enraptured, captivated.

 

In the same way, one of the most astonishing GPs in the last quarter-century was Japan 1994, in the monsoon wet.  And why was it so astonishing, thrilling, amazing?  Because it was so tense.  And why was it tense?  Because the racing was against the clock.

 

Ergo.  The lesson to learn.

 

When a race is red-flagged, drop this stupid, cretinous, insane, moronic and completely, totally and utterly unfair practice of re-setting the clock to zero.

 

I.e. go back to the old system of having aggregate times.  It's against the clock?  Yes.  So what?  It means that it's easier to overtake, for starters, you don't need to do it on track if you are having to catch a deficit but lead on the road.  But it means a different skill is rewarded - and it makes it so much more exciting when cars are separated and racing against a chimera.  Obviously not all the time, but in those rare circumstances when the red comes out, it adds a very different dimension.

 

I think somehow the world can cope with aggregate times.

 

Indeed, the world somehow coped with cars racing the clock in every Grand Prix until 1921...



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#2 Marklar

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 22:34

Aggregrate and F1.....grrrrrr



#3 pingu666

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 22:49

high stakes and result in question, that makes it interesting, and seeing excellence taking it to the limit



#4 Les

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 22:49

Japan 94. Literally the best race ever. Yes. 



#5 TennisUK

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 23:21

ensign14, on 12 Aug 2016 - 22:28, said:

Just watched one of the most thrilling races this year of any sort.  The final of the men's team pursuit cycling.

 

Ensign, I like you; you are rarely right when not talking about motor racing (and I agree with nearly everything you say about that), but on this you are utterly correct in both your observations and your analysis.

 

Les, on 12 Aug 2016 - 22:49, said:

Japan 94. Literally the best race ever. Yes. 

Absolutely.



#6 goingthedistance

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 23:39

I find the British cycling team's consistent miraculous improvement come Olympic time a little hard to swallow. But then I also found a certain Ethiopian breaking the 10,000 metres world record today by 14 seconds (the previous world record holder being a Chinese athlete from 2000 later found to be doping and dubbed one of the "chemical sisters") rather remarkable too.

So yeah I'm really not sure Motorsport needs to be taking anything from the farce that is most of the Olympic sports (barring sailing, golf, equestrian and a few other non-chemical assisted endeavours).

#7 F1Mad85

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 23:59

They're all on PED'S don't worry about that, you really think the likes of Bolt was clean at a time when all of his teammates were at it? Money talks.... the same with Mayweather in boxing, the man who claimed to be "cleaning" up the sport was at it all along.....

Man is corrupt full stop, you really believe F1 teams are any different?

Edited by F1Mad85, 12 August 2016 - 23:59.


#8 Slowersofterdumber

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 00:49

F1Mad85, on 12 Aug 2016 - 23:59, said:


Man is corrupt full stop, you really believe F1 teams are any different?

 

They´re worse. And that´s simply because they´re allowed to get away with everything.

 

If you´re an athlete and you get caught doping you´re out for 2 years. Goodbye sallary. Second time and it´s most likely a life-time ban. And you can even find yourself involved in some serious **** wihout doing anything wrong because you got stinged by a bee and you put the wrong oingment on your skin. Then you´re deemed an idiot at best, a cheater at worst.

 

In F1 you get caught with a hidden second fuel tank and a month later you´re back at it. You´re caught underweight on quali and you still start the race from the back. You´re caught stealing blueprints from your rivals and you´re still allowed to win the biggest prize.



#9 PlatenGlass

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 02:09

I don't like aggregate times. In any case, they're completely incompatible with the idea of a safety car. Imagine a driver leading on aggregate and then losing because the safety car came out.

It's inconsistent that it's OK for someone's lead to be wiped out in a safety car situation but not if the race is stopped.

The safety car/red flag inconsistency was instrumental in Hill's 1994 Japan win. Schumacher lost his gap and the opportunity to pull away further when he was faster in the early stages.

But anyway, races are so rarely red flagged that this would have no effect on how F1 is as a sport. One could use it as an argument for a form of racing where drivers start on different parts of the track but race against the clock. But to change a rule that would affect less than 1% of races doesn't seem worth it. And of those 1%, probably not much more than a few percent would have races as exciting as Japan 1994, which was also made more exciting because of its championship relevance. To suggest you'd get an aggregate race as exciting as that 1 race in 1000 would be an optimistic exaggeration.

We do actually get aggregate races anyway when drivers get these five second penalties after their final pitstop. I find them most unsatisfactory.

#10 HP

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 02:11

ensign14, on 12 Aug 2016 - 22:28, said:

...

I.e. go back to the old system of having aggregate times.  It's against the clock?  Yes.  So what?  It means that it's easier to overtake, for starters, you don't need to do it on track if you are having to catch a deficit but lead on the road.  But it means a different skill is rewarded - and it makes it so much more exciting when cars are separated and racing against a chimera.  Obviously not all the time, but in those rare circumstances when the red comes out, it adds a very different dimension.

...

You think those rare circumstances need fixing in F1? Better start with the things that need fixing for each and every race.



#11 jonpollak

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 02:44

They opened a competition cycle shop in my town after 2012. Trendy stuff. They serve a £3.50 coffee and tiny little chocolates.

I don't mind Aggies. FOM could do a count down clock graphic. .. Or summit.
Jp

#12 sidewinder26

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 02:46

Love the idea. Now let's go to YouTube and find that Japan '94 GP...



#13 F1Mad85

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 05:23

I know some purists don't like it but maybe they should consider shortening the races? Surely this would help get rid of the "preserve" everything mentality and allow flat out racing from start to finish....

#14 ensign14

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 07:09

goingthedistance, on 12 Aug 2016 - 23:39, said:


So yeah I'm really not sure Motorsport needs to be taking anything from the farce that is most of the Olympic sports (barring sailing, golf, equestrian and a few other non-chemical assisted endeavours).

 

Hate to break it to you...



#15 Collombin

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 07:27

Of course racing against the clock is thrilling, that's why alpine skiing is the best sport there is.

#16 Nonesuch

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 07:46

The only result of aggregate times in F1 would be that you'll have to add 20 and 18 seconds together to find by how much Mercedes has won this time.

 

Competition is exciting, and the way in which you then calculate the results is of secondary importance - at best.



#17 ensign14

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 07:59

The thing is, the argument that the plebs cannot possibly comprehend aggregate times is surely now non-existent, given that the stewards can throw in a few seconds' penalty towards the end of races.  Somehow the world comprehends that adding 5s to someone on track means they drop behind the chap who is right behind them.



#18 P123

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 08:02

goingthedistance, on 12 Aug 2016 - 23:39, said:

I find the British cycling team's consistent miraculous improvement come Olympic time a little hard to swallow. But then I also found a certain Ethiopian breaking the 10,000 metres world record today by 14 seconds (the previous world record holder being a Chinese athlete from 2000 later found to be doping and dubbed one of the "chemical sisters") rather remarkable too.

So yeah I'm really not sure Motorsport needs to be taking anything from the farce that is most of the Olympic sports (barring sailing, golf, equestrian and a few other non-chemical assisted endeavours).


Equally those that suddenly drop a few tenths (or seconds) in performance when it comes to the Olympics despite dominating in the years between also has a bit of a smell to it. Have they cleaned up in advance, or just a genuine loss of form.

As for aggregate times.... in F1 it added a bit of tension. But I don't think the excitement level is comparable with team pursuit cycling in the Olympics. Unless FOM is informing us, there is no way of telling what we are seeing; who is in what position, who is ahead or behind in reality. Japan '94, sure, but it was wet. In team pursuit cycling they start off at opposite sides of the track, and you don't really require a timing clock to know who is winning or losing as it's visual every 10s or so as they cross the line.

#19 chunder27

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 08:56

Nonsense to OP.

 

It was tense in Suzuke because a title was at stake!  Nothing more.

 

Pursuit racing is not really that fascinating, you only liked the cycling coz it was something you don't watch every two weeks and are tired of the characters, the same teams winning etc.



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#20 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 09:07

Just think how much more exciting Suzuka 94 could have been if Hill and Schumacher had to actually battle for position on track, not just on the stopwatch.



#21 Spillage

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 10:12

It works both ways. Another of the most exciting races ever was Canada 2012, and that probably wouldn't have been exciting without the race being reset after the Red flag.

There are bad races in the team pursuit where one team is miles ahead of the other, as well. The close competition is what made last night so exciting, and it's what makes F1 races exciting too.

#22 pdac

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 10:21

I think part of the excitement behind the pursuit cycling is down to there only being two teams on the track.



#23 Henri Greuter

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 10:21

First of all, I wonder how many who hail Japan '94 hail it because of the nationalitity of the winner an the natiuonality (and reputation.....) of the man he defeated. And I have my wonders if the nationality of the people who do so and wrote such within this thread is not a big factor as well. I am sorry but I can't shake that thought away.

 

 

But a thought that has crossed my mind more and more in the past. In the very beginning of GP racing when races were so much more longer too then nowadays, Cars were not started at one and the same time put in pairs with intervals. Such was also possible of course because the used tracks were so much longer and the cars so much slower.

It is impossible to apply with the current cars at the current tracks. But given the fact that ovetaking etc is next to impossible nowadays without artificial aids like DRS, the practice as previously used more than 100 years ago might be a good one nowadays. Cars can drive in free air with little to no blocking by cars in front of them and have more opportunity how fast they really are and how fast they can be driven.

No wheel to wheel battles anymore. only when someone made up the distance between them. And in such case, when a driver made up more that a number of seconds on the driver in front of him, overtaking might be less of a problem or even a blue flag can be given to the driver in front to move over for the faster driver.

It can't be applied in current times but it might have advantages.

 

 

Henri



#24 superden

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 10:32

Looking at those empty grandstands in Rio, I'd say the IOC have learnt a lesson or two from F1 ...

#25 Stephane

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 11:01

Well, WRC is for you...

#26 TomNokoe

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 11:14

Japan 1994 was a one off. Similar to Canada 2010 and the degrading tyres.

#27 P123

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 12:27

superden, on 13 Aug 2016 - 10:32, said:

Looking at those empty grandstands in Rio, I'd say the IOC have learnt a lesson or two from F1 ...


Empty grandstands in stadiums... more like ROC.

#28 Bleu

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 12:49

In reality, aggregate timing isn't that great.

 

If Hamilton leads Rosberg by 5 seconds when the race is red-flagged, then at the restart Rosberg beats him for the lead, Hamilton just needs to sit behind. As he is likely to be faster, so that isn't really a problem.



#29 Thursday

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 14:07

It turns out that Olympic athletes are already learning from F1.

During the BBC coverage of the track cycling Chris Hoy told of how he met Lewis Hamilton. They were looking at a photograph of Bradley Wiggins which showed him wearing a large ring while cycling on the track.
Lewis asked why was he wearing a ring as surely it affects the air flow. None of the British track cycling team wear rings anymore.



#30 HeadFirst

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 14:31

pdac, on 13 Aug 2016 - 10:21, said:

I think part of the excitement behind the pursuit cycling is down to there only being two teams on the track.

 

No, it's because the racing is done on a banked oval ..... like NASCAR, or sometimes IndyCar. F1 should switch to high-banked short-track ovals (like in Iowa) for maximum excitement!!!! :clap:



#31 Yamamoto

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 15:17

The excitement came from closely contested, dramatic, high level competition. I wouldn't have been shocked if someone told me F1 needs this before last night. 

 

I see the point insofar as arguing that we don't need to pursue overtaking volume to have excitement. I also see why aggregate racing could be seen as fairer - at least in some circumstances. 



#32 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 15:19

I believe Japan 1994 showed us who truly is the greatest F1-driver there has ever been. So I agree, aggregate sorts out the best of the best of the best and so it did that glorious day. 

 

Thank you for your attention. 



#33 f1paul

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 15:26

E.B., on 13 Aug 2016 - 07:27, said:

Of course racing against the clock is thrilling, 

Not necessarily look at road cycling time trials. Mass starts are better than time trials IMO



#34 Collombin

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 15:30

f1paul, on 13 Aug 2016 - 15:26, said:

Not necessarily look at road cycling time trials. Mass starts are better than time trials IMO


Probably true, and cross country skiing bores the hell out of me, so I'll qualify that - FAST sports are exciting against the clock.

#35 f1paul

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 15:30

Aggregate timings........... NO. If you used aggregate timing then Canada 2011 would've been a totally different story. Instead of Button winning on the final lap he probably would've been out of the points if you used aggregate timings.



#36 Izzyeviel

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 15:32

Replace the motor with pedals.... we could have flintstones style racing!  :up:  :smoking:



#37 f1paul

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 15:33

E.B., on 13 Aug 2016 - 15:30, said:

Probably true, and cross country skiing bores the hell out of me, so I'll qualify that - FAST sports are exciting against the clock.

Precisely imagine the 100m final where the athletes would run one by one. It would be boring and time consuming.



#38 f1paul

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 15:39

Izzyeviel, on 13 Aug 2016 - 15:32, said:

Replace the motor with pedals.... we could have flintstones style racing!  :up:  :smoking:

Just like when Richard Hammond on Top Gear did an 18 minute lap in a Porsche made out of chocolate that was pedal power



#39 P123

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 17:48

f1paul, on 13 Aug 2016 - 15:30, said:

Aggregate timings........... NO. If you used aggregate timing then Canada 2011 would've been a totally different story. Instead of Button winning on the final lap he probably would've been out of the points if you used aggregate timings.


Even looking at the favoured '94 example, that gave us Mansell making a superb move around the outside of Alesi at the chicane to take 3rd on the final lap.... but oh no, it wasn't, thanks to aggregate timing.

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#40 ensign14

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 18:58

PayasYouRace, on 13 Aug 2016 - 09:07, said:

Just think how much more exciting Suzuka 94 could have been if Hill and Schumacher had to actually battle for position on track, not just on the stopwatch.

 

We had that in Adelaide.  We know what would have happened, Schumacher would have had Hill off.

 



#41 RECKLESS

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 19:16

We have F1 racing against the clock already.

 

It's called Qualifying.



#42 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 19:58

ensign14, on 13 Aug 2016 - 18:58, said:

We had that in Adelaide.  We know what would have happened, Schumacher would have had Hill off.

 

 

On track battles are much better than time trials, even if sometimes they result in collisions.



#43 pdac

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 20:08

HeadFirst, on 13 Aug 2016 - 14:31, said:

No, it's because the racing is done on a banked oval ..... like NASCAR, or sometimes IndyCar. F1 should switch to high-banked short-track ovals (like in Iowa) for maximum excitement!!!! :clap:

 

Ah, you could be onto something here .... Banked oval track and two teams of four. Bernie is already working towards the two teams of four idea, so we just need the banked oval.



#44 ensign14

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 20:35

PayasYouRace, on 13 Aug 2016 - 19:58, said:

On track battles are much better than time trials, even if sometimes they result in collisions.

 

That's why they all start sort of together.  But re-setting the clock after a red flag is ridiculously unfair.  Luciano Burti's F1 career was ended in a race that was effectively a five lap qualifying session.



#45 PayasYouRace

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 20:39

ensign14, on 13 Aug 2016 - 20:35, said:

That's why they all start sort of together.  But re-setting the clock after a red flag is ridiculously unfair.  Luciano Burti's F1 career was ended in a race that was effectively a five lap qualifying session.

 

What difference would it have made to Burti if the restart had been on aggregate?



#46 ensign14

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 21:50

Makes it all seem so pointless.



#47 HP

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 22:57

Henri Greuter, on 13 Aug 2016 - 10:21, said:

First of all, I wonder how many who hail Japan '94 hail it because of the nationalitity of the winner an the natiuonality (and reputation.....) of the man he defeated. And I have my wonders if the nationality of the people who do so and wrote such within this thread is not a big factor as well. I am sorry but I can't shake that thought away.

 

 

But a thought that has crossed my mind more and more in the past. In the very beginning of GP racing when races were so much more longer too then nowadays, Cars were not started at one and the same time put in pairs with intervals. Such was also possible of course because the used tracks were so much longer and the cars so much slower.

It is impossible to apply with the current cars at the current tracks. But given the fact that ovetaking etc is next to impossible nowadays without artificial aids like DRS, the practice as previously used more than 100 years ago might be a good one nowadays. Cars can drive in free air with little to no blocking by cars in front of them and have more opportunity how fast they really are and how fast they can be driven.

No wheel to wheel battles anymore. only when someone made up the distance between them. And in such case, when a driver made up more that a number of seconds on the driver in front of him, overtaking might be less of a problem or even a blue flag can be given to the driver in front to move over for the faster driver.

It can't be applied in current times but it might have advantages.

 

 

Henri

As long as drivers need to conserve fuel and manage tires by going slower than they could, there will be sadly not much overtaking happening.

 

Alternatively was it that great to see what happened to Alonso at the last GP? Losing a few places because he had to conserve fuel to make it to the line. He's responsible as a driver for that, but if a team has to add more fuel to compensate for a thirsty engine, they can't do that thanks to the current regulations.



#48 HP

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 23:01

ensign14, on 13 Aug 2016 - 18:58, said:

We had that in Adelaide.  We know what would have happened, Schumacher would have had Hill off.

 

And what about the times Hill crashed out all by himself (trying to overtake someone other than MSC in some instances)? Hill might have enjoyed an even more successful career in WRC than in F1 if he was so good at time trials.


Edited by HP, 13 August 2016 - 23:09.


#49 maximilian

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 02:16

F1 can't even put up a basic FREE detailed live timing page :down:



#50 HeadFirst

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Posted 14 August 2016 - 04:30

RECKLESS, on 13 Aug 2016 - 19:16, said:

We have F1 racing against the clock already.

 

It's called Qualifying.

 

And there are times when it is the most exciting part of the weekend.