41 replies to this topic

[Boing 2]

I wanted to have a look at pole and fastest laps times for various generations of cars but so many tracks have changed their layouts  down the years, what circuits can you think of that haven't?

 

My list off the top of my head (not including resurfacing)

 

Interlagos

Melbourne

Montreal

Suzuka (did they alter Spoon at some point?)

 

 

Can anyone add to or confirm this?

 

[Jejking]

I wanted to have a look at pole and fastest laps times for various generations of cars but so many tracks have changed their layouts  down the years, what circuits can you think of that haven't?

 

My list off the top of my head (not including resurfacing)

 

Interlagos

Melbourne

Montreal

Suzuka (did they alter Spoon at some point?)

 

 

Can anyone add to or confirm this?

Nice thread Suzuka has got to go from your list, 130R used to be sharper but it was slightly redesigned at the end of the 90s if I recall correctly.

Edited by Jejking, 04 September 2016 - 10:18.

[f1paul]

Are you talking about F1 circuits or any circuits? Because there's lots of ovals in America that haven't changed for at least 20-25yrs 

[levi1700]

The backstraight of Montreal has also changed mid 90's IRC

[f1paul]

The backstraight of Montreal has also changed mid 90's IRC

And the pit exti if that counts

[OO7]

I wanted to have a look at pole and fastest laps times for various generations of cars but so many tracks have changed their layouts  down the years, what circuits can you think of that haven't?

 

My list off the top of my head (not including resurfacing)

 

Interlagos

Melbourne

Montreal

Suzuka (did they alter Spoon at some point?)

 

 

Can anyone add to or confirm this?

Montreal has had the run down to the hairpin (The hairpin that leads onto the longest straight) shortened slightly as well as the longest straight to match.  The back straight used to have a few high speed corners with gradient changes.

[Boing 2]

Nice thread Suzuka has got to go from your list, 130R used to be sharper but it was slightly redesigned at the end of the 90s if I recall correctly.

 

 

You're right, I thought it was spoon that was re-profiled.

[f1paul]

I wanted to have a look at pole and fastest laps times for various generations of cars but so many tracks have changed their layouts  down the years, what circuits can you think of that haven't?

 

My list off the top of my head (not including resurfacing)

 

Interlagos

Melbourne

Montreal

Suzuka (did they alter Spoon at some point?)

 

 

Can anyone add to or confirm this?

The first chicane at Interlargos has changed, recently actually, Montreal the back straight I think and Suzuka 130R as someone has said, there's not many that have stayed exactly the same. Remember lots of tracks like Bahrain, China, Malaysia, Baku, Russia and more haven't been on the calendar for 20-25yrs never mind changing the layouts.

[Boing 2]

Are you talking about F1 circuits or any circuits? Because there's lots of ovals in America that haven't changed for at least 20-25yrs 

 

Well, you can add non-f1 tracks out of curiosity but I'm interested in tracking F1 car speeds so I'm only really intersted in F1 circuits.

[OO7]

Interlagos it the only circuit that hasn't really changed in 25 years, however last years alterations to the kerbs was said to have increased lap times by half a second to a second.

[Marklar]

Of the current F1 tracks the most latest significant layout changes

 

Interlagos - 1990

Melbourne - 1996 (never changed)

Montreal - 1996

Spielberg - 1997 (never really significant changed)

Kuala Lumpur - 1999 (never changed)

Monza - 2000

Hockenheim - 2002

Monaco - 2003

Budapest - 2003

Suzuka - 2003

Shanghai - 2004 (never changed)

Sakhir - 2004 (never changed, run on an alternate track in 2010)

Barcelona - 2007

Spa - 2007

Abu Dhabi - 2009 (never changed)

Silverstone - 2010

Austin - 2012 (never changed)

Sochi - 2014 (never changed)

Singapore - 2015

Mexico - 2015

Baku - 2016

 

*Some tracks like Montreal, Spielberg (both 2002), Monaco (2015) and multiple times Interlagos (1997, 2000) were just slightly changed , but not that the official records were resetted.

Edited by Marklar, 04 September 2016 - 10:29.

[PayasYouRace]

I wanted to have a look at pole and fastest laps times for various generations of cars but so many tracks have changed their layouts  down the years, what circuits can you think of that haven't?

 

My list off the top of my head (not including resurfacing)

 

Interlagos

Melbourne

Montreal

Suzuka (did they alter Spoon at some point?)

 

 

Can anyone add to or confirm this?

 

Interlagos is the same as it was when it came back to F1 in 1990, other than a few pit lane modifications.

 

Melbourne is the same.

 

Montreal had the hairpin brought in in around 2002 to increase the runoff (where Kubica had his crash). Before that the long straight had some very dangerous esses removed in 1996, and if you go back further there'll be more changes, including the old pits.

 

Suzuka hasn't changed much but the esses were realigned sometime in the early 2000s to increase runoff, and of course 130R and the chicane in 2003.

 

 

Of the current F1 tracks the most latest significant layout changes

 

Interlagos - 1990

Melbourne - 1996 (never changed)

Montreal - 1996

Spielberg - 1997 (never really significant changed)

Kuala Lumpur - 1999 (never changed)

Monza - 2000

Hockenheim - 2002

Monaco - 2003

Budapest - 2003

Suzuka - 2003

Shanghai - 2004 (never changed)

Sakhir - 2004 (never changed, run on an alternate track in 2010)

Barcelona - 2007

Spa - 2007

Abu Dhabi - 2009 (never changed)

Silverstone - 2010

Austin - 2012 (never changed)

Sochi - 2014 (never changed)

Singapore - 2015

Mexico - 2015

Baku - 2016

 

*Some tracks like Montreal and Spielberg were just slightly changed, but not that the official records were resetted.

 

A couple of corrections for you.

 

Bahrain had turn 4 opened dramatically in 2005.

 

Montreal was 2002 when it had it's last changes.

[Boing 2]

Not interested in pit exits or entrances just the track itself.  I think I remember Canada run to the hairpin being shortend, it was to add runoff to the corner wasn't it? Can't remember the back straight changes though.

[Boing 2]

Can't recall the esses at Suzuka being altered either.

[OO7]

Not interested in pit exits or entrances just the track itself.  I think I remember Canada run to the hairpin being shortend, it was to add runoff to the corner wasn't it? Can't remember the back straight changes though.

Yes, it was done to increase the run-off area and that also required the longest straight to be shortened (I include that kink past the hairpin as part of the main straight).  The high speed corners that lead onto the long back straight were removed for the 1996 race.

[PayasYouRace]

Can't recall the esses at Suzuka being altered either.

 

They're not dramatically different but they were adjusted to increase the runoff.

 

It's most noticeable between the 2nd left and the last right before Dunlop. Previously there was more straight between the two. Now they lead more directly into each other.

 

 

[Boing 2]

Of the current F1 tracks the most latest significant layout changes

 

Interlagos - 1990

Melbourne - 1996 (never changed)

Montreal - 1996

Spielberg - 1997 (never really significant changed)

Kuala Lumpur - 1999 (never changed)

Monza - 2000

Hockenheim - 2002

Monaco - 2003

Budapest - 2003

Suzuka - 2003

Shanghai - 2004 (never changed)

Sakhir - 2004 (never changed, run on an alternate track in 2010)

Barcelona - 2007

Spa - 2007

Abu Dhabi - 2009 (never changed)

Silverstone - 2010

Austin - 2012 (never changed)

Sochi - 2014 (never changed)

Singapore - 2015

Mexico - 2015

Baku - 2016

 

*Some tracks like Montreal, Spielberg (both 2002), Monaco (2015) and multiple times Interlagos (1997, 2000) were just slightly changed , but not that the official records were resetted.

 

 

Looks like Interlagos and Melbourne are the only ones then. 1996 just sqeaks in as I wanted numbers from pre-narrow chassis cars.

 

Crazy thing for me is that there's a tiny part of my brain always saw the FW14B as the ultimate F1 car but its pole time in 92 at Interlagos was 1:15.7 and even last years cars were down to 1:11.2 so I'm sure this years will be well into the 1:10's.

 

Amazing to think these cars are 5 seconds a lap faster than those active ride, 3.5L  big-tyred, big-winged beasts.

[chunder27]

Some tracks dont need to change, their safety deal is already OK perhaps.

 

A1 ring hasn't really changed much either since they came back.

 

Some shoudl just drop F1 so they can retain their character, but its hard to drop that level f cash receipt!

[Boing 2]

They're not dramatically different but they were adjusted to increase the runoff.

 

It's most noticeable between the 2nd left and the last right before Dunlop. Previously there was more straight between the two. Now they lead more directly into each other.

 

 

 

 

That's really noticable when you play them at the same time, totally forgot about it though.

[Boing 2]

Montreal 1990 layout versus 2016, again I totally forgot about that kink in the back straight.

 

[Kristian]

Melbourne hasnt had a single change since 1996, which is quite remarkable. It even retains gravel.

[Boing 2]

I still think of Melbourne as a 'new' circuit........

 

 

I'm going out into the garden to shout at some kids.

[OO7]

Montreal 1990 layout versus 2016, again I totally forgot about that kink in the back straight.

 

That 1990 layout isn't quite right.  The final chicane back then was a high speed 4th or 5th gear sequence.

[Nzapper]

Melbourne hasnt had a single change since 1996, which is quite remarkable. It even retains gravel.

Aside from 2006 when there was Tarmac at the end of the 2nd straight. Never understood why it was there and was removed the following year.

The only big changes there are the pit-entry and the inclusion of kerbs (for some reason) in the car-park area.

[chunder27]

Suzuka I think was changed a lot after Katoh's death in 2003 for the bikes mainly, maybe as they hoped to keep the race there, but it was too dangerous. But I dont think the car track changed much other than moving the chicane further towards the pit straight

[george1981]

Wasn't there a temporary chicane at Montreal '95 on the back straight and it was then modified permanently for '96?

[nmansellfan]

Looks like Interlagos and Melbourne are the only ones then. 1996 just sqeaks in as I wanted numbers from pre-narrow chassis cars.

 

Crazy thing for me is that there's a tiny part of my brain always saw the FW14B as the ultimate F1 car but its pole time in 92 at Interlagos was 1:15.7 and even last years cars were down to 1:11.2 so I'm sure this years will be well into the 1:10's.

 

Amazing to think these cars are 5 seconds a lap faster than those active ride, 3.5L  big-tyred, big-winged beasts.

 

Most tracks have been resurfaced a couple of times in the last 20 years which helps reduce lap times as well, not just from a grippier surface (eventually, after the surface oils have evaporated).  There's a piece in this month's Motorsport Magazine about the resurfacing at the Hungaroring, which has removed lots of the bumps around the track, particularly at the right handed turn 5.  Smoother track = faster and you can run the car lower overall.

 

I think Interlagos was last resurfaced under 5 years ago?  Plus kerbs in '92 were usually ones that you didn't go near, rather than put all four wheels over.

 

I do remember seeing some of the '92 lap records still standing in about 2000.  It would be interesting to see an FW14B end of season spec car being properly hammered around modern Interlagos, I think it would be under 1.14 and sound mega too

[Kristian]

Suzuka I think was changed a lot after Katoh's death in 2003 for the bikes mainly, maybe as they hoped to keep the race there, but it was too dangerous. But I dont think the car track changed much other than moving the chicane further towards the pit straight

The Esses were changed for the 2000 race I think just for runoff purposes.

Then 130R was changed after McNish 's crash in 2002. I think Kato died in 2003 after the chicane was modified.

[OO7]

Wasn't there a temporary chicane at Montreal '95 on the back straight and it was then modified permanently for '96?

Yes.  The temporary chicane was placed there in 1994 and 1995.

[Dr. Austin]

Are you talking about F1 circuits or any circuits? Because there's lots of ovals in America that haven't changed for at least 20-25yrs 

 

Almost all of the bigger tracks have had SAFER barriers installed, which takes up a little room, so technically they have been narrowed. 

Edited by Dr. Austin, 04 September 2016 - 15:16.

[RA2]

FW14 would have done a better lap than a 1.15 around interlagos with modern tires

[PlatenGlass]

I know this is slightly tangential, but I used to play the original Geoff Crammond F1GP based on the 1991 season quite a lot, and the tracks that I'd regard at "basically the same" since then are Interlagos, Monaco, Canada, Hungary, Spa, Monza and Suzuka.

[PiperPa42]

You're right, I thought it was spoon that was re-profiled.

The end of the 90'ies is almost 20 years ago.

[SenorSjon]

Most tracks have been resurfaced a couple of times in the last 20 years which helps reduce lap times as well, not just from a grippier surface (eventually, after the surface oils have evaporated). There's a piece in this month's Motorsport Magazine about the resurfacing at the Hungaroring, which has removed lots of the bumps around the track, particularly at the right handed turn 5. Smoother track = faster and you can run the car lower overall.

I think Interlagos was last resurfaced under 5 years ago? Plus kerbs in '92 were usually ones that you didn't go near, rather than put all four wheels over.

I do remember seeing some of the '92 lap records still standing in about 2000. It would be interesting to see an FW14B end of season spec car being properly hammered around modern Interlagos, I think it would be under 1.14 and sound mega too

Resurfacing did a lot for Brazil and Hungary. Cars can be setup stiffer and lower which helps around the whole track. Brazil had some minor changes with the pit entry 1-2 years ago.

But indeed, flatter kerbstones and tarmac runoffs let drivers take more risk without punishment. I noticed the Ascari chicane had tarmac treatment as well.

Malaysia has resurfacing and adjustments to the corner between the straights this year.

Edited by SenorSjon, 04 September 2016 - 20:00.

[Nonesuch]

The circuit database linked to in my signature (not my site) is pretty up to date. You can have a look at all the various kinds of lay-outs used over the years.

 

This is the site: http://theracingline...racingcircuits/

Edited by Nonesuch, 04 September 2016 - 19:59.

[Hati]

I wanted to have a look at pole and fastest laps times for various generations of cars but so many tracks have changed their layouts  down the years,

 

I was thinking similar thing but I would have compared them year by year and calculated difference in speed. I thought of looking which tracks were used in two consecutive years and in dry conditions and calculated averages between them. That way it would have been possible to calculate the yearly change of speed and possibly to see little how cars have evolved over the years. Then I decided that even if I found the stats it would be too much of a work for me. That doesn't prevent someone else for doing it.

 

I settled for this. It lacks most recent years and is for qualifying only but it gives a trend.

http://www.motorspor...nfo/spd_mon.htm

[SenorSjon]

The circuit database linked to in my signature (not my site) is pretty up to date. You can have a look at all the various kinds of lay-outs used over the years.

 

This is the site: http://theracingline...racingcircuits/

 

That site isn't maintained past 2005?

[Boing 2]

I was thinking similar thing but I would have compared them year by year and calculated difference in speed. I thought of looking which tracks were used in two consecutive years and in dry conditions and calculated averages between them. That way it would have been possible to calculate the yearly change of speed and possibly to see little how cars have evolved over the years. Then I decided that even if I found the stats it would be too much of a work for me. That doesn't prevent someone else for doing it.

 

I settled for this. It lacks most recent years and is for qualifying only but it gives a trend.

http://www.motorspor...nfo/spd_mon.htm

 

Interesting but I wonder why Monaco was used? from the exit of the tunnel to the start finish straight has been totally re-modelled in the last 40 years.

[Jackmancer]

 

Kuala Lumpur - 1999 (never changed)

 

Actually it's changed for this year: 

[anbeck]

Actually it's changed for this year: 

 

That's very gruesome to watch! Feels like you're on drugs or something

[Myrvold]

The circuit database linked to in my signature (not my site) is pretty up to date. You can have a look at all the various kinds of lay-outs used over the years.

 

This is the site: http://theracingline...racingcircuits/

Then add http://www.racingcircuits.info/ as well, and you get all the newest tracks and changes. Theracingline is awesome, as it lists circuits that's not in use anymore, destroyed etc. However theracingline.net have not been updated since October 2005. And I find it amazing that someone have paid for the site to still be up.

It's on the list of things I want to do, but don't have the time, money or skills to do... Buy the site and update it.

Edited by Myrvold, 05 September 2016 - 19:05.

[chr1s]

My brother and I used to talk about the longest standing lap records for an unchanged circuit still in use, but as the OP says most tracks  have changed in some way. I think the oldest we came up with were Anderstorp in Sweden and Jarama in Spain. Laudas 1978 Swedish Grand prix lap record stood for decades, although I think its been beaten now, but Gilles Villeneuve's 1979 lap record still stands at Jarama.