48 replies to this topic

[d95err]

For the first, almost every single car should be able to take Eau Rouge at Spa flat out this year. Why - traction control. The TC will cut power as soon as the rear wheels start to loose grip so the drivers can probably just floor it.

Really a shame to se the most feared, loved and spectacular corner - a true test of both bravery and skill - transformed into a simple flat-out combination.

Note: Most F1 drivers claim to be taking Eau Rouge flat out but apparently when you look at the telemetry, there is always a little "confidence" lift on the throttle or a little left-foot braking.

[baddog]

Not so. traction control can only cut power once grip is lost which would be far too late to save you in eau rouge I think, it cannot help if you have entered a corner far too fast for the line you are on, the problem with eau rouge. Corners like that are all about line, suspension travel, balance.. power isnt really the issue.

I doubt it is the panacea for bad driving it is touted as

Shaun

[A3]

I totally agree with Baddog.

[Spunout]

Baddog is right here. TC does not help in eau rouge. Only thing TC does is to prevent wheelspin. Obviously if you have wheelspin during cornering it causes car to oversteer. However when they are going 300 kph wheelspin doesn´t occur anymore, and therefore TC is useless. It can´t stop tires sliding sideways.

[BRG]

If anything, TC will mean that cars are going faster when they reach Eau Rouge. TC should help acceleration out of the ultra slow La Source hairpin. Or are they flat by the time they reach Eau Rouge anyway?

But if you are already able to go flat through Eau Rouge, then TC will make it more comfortable - you will be able to keepit nailed and not worry that some sudden extra grip or loss of grip (ie the kerbs or when the car goes light) will toss you sideways into the gravel. So Villeneuve should be OK this year!!

[scokim]

that's right - the faster you go into eau rouge the more downforce you get for the corner.

TC doesn't stop wheelspin when the car is sliding. it only works on a straight line.

[TheDestroyer]

Eau Rouge is a fantastic corner that seems to bite the lesser teams more so than the top 3.

We might see fewer outs because of this corner but I think the lesser cars will still have problems hitting Eau Rouge flat out.

Afterall, Eau Rouge is more about the sudden change in downforce than it is traction control...

[Ursus]

I belive the big difference will be with the stickier tyres. They will be the main reason why more drivers to go flat, not TC.

[scokim]

as someone mentioned, it's a 'confidence' corner. if you chicken out and lift, the speed drops, giving less downforce, and you spin.

[Smooth]

Quote

Originally posted by d95err
For the first, almost every single car should be able to take Eau Rouge at Spa flat out this year. Why - traction control. The TC will cut power as soon as the rear wheels start to loose grip so the drivers can probably just floor it.

Really a shame to se the most feared, loved and spectacular corner - a true test of both bravery and skill - transformed into a simple flat-out combination.

Note: Most F1 drivers claim to be taking Eau Rouge flat out but apparently when you look at the telemetry, there is always a little "confidence" lift on the throttle or a little left-foot braking.

I take it you have never been to Spa.

As has been mentioned: Part of it the comfort level in the car, but you can watch the drivers in Fridays first pracitice, as I have for the last several years (except last...) and see the few guys who drive with confidence. Schumacher, two years running, took it flat first time through, Hakkinen was flat his second time a couple years ago, and DC didn't wait long to do the same. I don't hjave telemetry, but my own eyes and ears can sort the drivers pretty well. It is partly the car, but also shows the better drivers pretty well, as even guys like Fisi are close to flat in a shitbox.

Ask Rubens about MS' confidence he displays every lap....;) He mentioned it in a couple interviews....

[Ross Stonefeld]

you know, if you cant take Eau Rouge flat in a top car, it usually means you're pretty fast. A Mclaren with a Minardi engine will take Eau Rouge flat no problem because its hardly got any speed on the dial by the time it gets to it.

[Wes]

I've never really understood the fascination with taking this corner flat out. Traction control or not, if you crank on some Monaco down force, any driver in any car can take this corner flat, it's that easy. The problem is that Eau Rouge is only one corner in one sector of F1's longest track, and setting your car up for this "holy grail" may crap out your set up for the remainder of the course. If a driver has to lift at Eau Rouge, maybe it's because his car is optimally set up for the entire course, as opposed to just one corner (even if it is the greatest remaining corner if F1).

One more thing, we've all heard this before, but until you see it in real life, you have no idea how steep it is.

[Ivan]

Quote

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
you know, if you cant take Eau Rouge flat in a top car, it usually means you're pretty fast. A Mclaren with a Minardi engine will take Eau Rouge flat no problem because its hardly got any speed on the dial by the time it gets to it.

Villeneuve and Zonta almost killed themselves trying not too long ago.

[Smooth]

Quote

Originally posted by Wes
If a driver has to lift at Eau Rouge, maybe it's because his car is optimally set up for the entire course, as opposed to just one corner (even if it is the greatest remaining corner if F1).

One more thing, we've all heard this before, but until you see it in real life, you have no idea how steep it is.

Yep.

[Ross Stonefeld]

99 BAR was a top car?

[Smooth]

Quote

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
99 BAR was a top car?

Hardly, but it is a small glimpse of what JV lacks..... the sense to try to setup the car for a quick lap instead of wasting his time and BARs money trying to go flat. Panis will show him the way this year at Spa, if JV decides to listen.

[Jon Allen]

Can anyone post a link to an in-car lap of Spa? I feel I "know" this circuit better than the rest of them due to having spent the most time with it in F12000/f1CS2K. I of course understand that driving a simulated car is vastly different than the real thing, and also that EA's representation of Spa is inaccurate in some (many?) respects, and have wanted to get a driver's-eye view of the course. I found an in-car lap with Marc Gene about a year ago, but the video quality was fairly poor, with drop-outs, etc.

In the game, Eau Rouge is not that big a deal - it's the left-hander at the bottom of that hill (Pouhon?) that led to most of my "offs". Getting airborne over the kerbing at the Bus Stop was also a problem. I'm not trying to turn this thread into a discussion of Spa as it appears in F1 simulators, simply trying to get a handle on what is difficult/easy at Spa in real life.

[A3]

Here's one from 1999 with Marc Gene (9Mb):

http://f-1.sovintel....9/spa/spaq1.mpg

[d95err]

"Schumacher, two years running, took it flat first time through,
Hakkinen was flat his second time a couple years ago, and DC
didn't wait long to do the same."

The comment that most drivers don't take Eau Rouge flat out was from Elge Elgh - swedish F1 commentator and ex-racing driver. He knows several drivers and team members personally and has worked as an advisor for some teams (e.g BAR 2 years ago).

The point was that most drivers *thought* they were taking the corner flat and that they were surprised when they saw the telemetry showing that they were actually lifting or, using a little left-foot brake (in which case I assume it would sound like being taken completely flat).

As for TC affecting whether you can take a corner flat out or not I reffer to David Coulthards comment from a couple of days ago:

"...before, I would be taking a corner at 120mph at one-half throttle, now I am taking it at 125mph on full throttle, knowing that the car will correct itself if the back end steps out of line."

OK, I don't know if this will apply to Eau Rouge, but it's really booring that for some corners, you just brake then floor it, instead of feathering the throttle to get the maximum traction.
Imagine the start on sunday - 22 cars launching without a single puff of tire smoke, everybody getting perfect traction and arriving at the first corner in the starting order - booring!

(And as for some other comments - yes it's possible to take any corner flat - slow to almost a stop right before it, throw in 6th gear and floor it. I'm sure you could also take Eau Rouge flat on a moped, but that's kind of beside the point :-)[quote]Schumacher, two years running, took it flat first time through, Hakkinen was flat his second time a couple years ago, and DC didn't wait long to do the same.[/quote] [QUOTE]

[Jhope]

The variable that was preventing them from actually taking it flat out, was mechanical grip combined with downforce. Now, we have an excess of mechanical grip produced by the tire war, and downforce levels, even though they are down by a large margin, are still quite high.

With the above taken into consideration, I would say there is a huge possibility that drivers will take Eau Rouge like they take the first chicane in Melbourne. (Future ain't too bright for Burti then?)

[TheDestroyer]

Wes,

If you put enough downforce on these cars you could probably drive them upside down through a tunnel... It's racing/qualifying conditions that count though.

Monaco type downforce will make the cars run slower on other portions of the track, something you can't afford to do.

[Ross Stonefeld]

they allready do

[Manson]

I think it's more a macho thing. Great corner like Eau Rouge if taken flat can inspire confidence or demoralize others. Head games maybe?

The corner must be like the corkscrew. I couldn't believe how steep it was 'til a) I looked up it b) tried to walk up it... huff, puff...

[HartleyHare]

Excellent post, Wes. My thoughts exactly. And you are right too, Manson - it is a macho thing, which is why JVi always attacks the corner like a man possessed.

[ehagar]

When it comes down to it, it really doesn't matter.

There is probably more time to be gained in the final third of Spa rather than one corner.

[Rene]

The slower sections of a course always seem to be the place to make up time...ask Arrows, for the last couple of years they have had huge speeds on th straights, yet were far from the pointy end of the grid....

But taking Eau Rouge flat would be a thrill!!!

[Dimo]

Quote

Originally posted by d95err
Imagine the start on sunday - 22 cars launching without a single puff of tire smoke, everybody getting perfect traction and arriving at the first corner in the starting order - booring!

Isn't this an oversimplification?

There are still a number of variables; a driver's reaction time to the lights, the acceleration of each engine/chassis package, and so on.

While I've never been inside an F1 car, do they not still have a clutch that has to be engaged with some amount of manual "feel" when the car is not in motion? I would think so...otherwise why have some drivers stalled at the start or in the pits, like Mika at Interlagos this year?

If the clutch is anything like a road car's clutch, then that would also be a huge variable.

Can someone (Ross/Russ) enlighten us (or at least little, ignorant me)?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Its gonna depend on your reaction time and how much clutch slippage you have.

[baddog]

the feel of the clutch will no longer have any relevance. the driver will stand on the throttle before the start, then activate the GO button (either a literal button or release the brake) whent he lights go off and the car will launch itself with no further driver input other than standing on the throttle pedal required till the braking zone for turn 1. ack

Shaun

[TheDestroyer]

Well one can't afford not to be able to take Eau Rouge flat out - being able to will make or break a driver's chance of making it into the top 3.

[karlth]

Quote

Originally posted by Spunout
Baddog is right here. TC does not help in eau rouge. Only thing TC does is to prevent wheelspin. Obviously if you have wheelspin during cornering it causes car to oversteer. However when they are going 300 kph wheelspin doesn´t occur anymore, and therefore TC is useless. It can´t stop tires sliding sideways.

I thought it did? Isn't traction control an anti slide mechanism as well?

[TheDestroyer]

Depending upon what causes the slide, TC may or may not have an effect.

TC effects the power transfer to the wheels but several different methods. Sliding isn't necessarily effected by the amount of power being transferred - at least not all the time.

[Spunout]

"I thought it did? Isn't traction control an anti slide mechanism as well?"

Driving is based on laws of physics. Only thing TC CAN do is to prevent wheelspin. Obviously if you have wheelspin you will also lose tyre grip sideways. However in faster corners there is no wheelspin and therefore TC doesn´t (or can´t) do anything. Grip (in this case tires sliding sideways) is created by friction and when driving corners the contrifugal force (I´m not sure is this a right word) is "trying" to keep the cars moving direction unchanged. The grip (friction) created by tires etc is fighting against it to make the car turn into corners. Once the contrifugal force affects more than friction no mechanism can help. Not even ESP-systems you can find from normal passenger cars can do that. All they do is they try to keep the car in optimum angle by braking tires separately (not allowed in F1). Tires sliding sideways can not be prevented if there is not enough friction. TheDestroyer had a good point: "Depending upon what causes the slide, TC may or may not have an effect." meaning we can have a general rule: if sliding is not caused by wheelspin, TC has no effect.

I sometimes see many driving "aids" like TC/4WD/ABS are considered more than they are. I have actually even heard statements like (I understand if you don´t believe I have really heard these...) "4WD means you can drive corners much faster" or "with ABS braking doesn´t have any influence on steering" or "TC completely prevents oversteering". One should always start from laws of physic and think what these systems actually do, because while they might be technically complex, their idea is quite simple. I Hope this clears things a bit. More technically oriented people here could propably explain this better than I can.

[Ross Stonefeld]

You can be going through 130R flat in 6th and if you start to slide, TC is gonna help becuase you'll be on power.

[Spunout]

"You can be going through 130R flat in 6th and if you start to slide, TC is gonna help becuase you'll be on power."

You mean AFTER oversteering has begun? I agree it could help A BIT in car control after ending up sideways (by preventing the power delivered by engine from making the situation even worse). However I don´t think it would mean much in 6th gear corner because once F1 car ends up too much sideways it will mean a sudden loss of aerodynamic grip anyway (very limited lock-to-lock doesn´t make it easier either)...What I meant was TC in high-speed corners doesn´t PREVENT oversteer. When they are going on 6th gear and have almost two tons of aerodynamic force helping, I don´t believe even using full power will cause oversteering (as a result of wheelspin). I also believe this is confirmed by several F1 drivers and engineers. Assuming this was what you meant I agree.

[MattB]

In 1993, the last time full electronic gizmos were being utilized, Alex Zanardi had one hell of an almighty crash there. Michael Andretti approached the scene and came to a stop in the middle of the track, followed by a flying Aryton Senna who had to spin through the debris and into the trap scaring the crap out of the attending marshals who were looking after Zanardi. Traction Control isn't going to allow people to just put it flat all of the time, driver skill will still be needed.

Afterall, modern planes have a barge load of electronic aids and planes still manage to find there way into the sides of mountains.
Traction Control is not infallable.

[TheDestroyer]

MattB,

I would go one further. As a driver I don't think I would want MY car responding to things automatically without intervention from me the DRIVER.

TC combined with auto-upshifts (I hope no one is stupid enough to try auto-downshifts) may make for some damn unpredictable situations.

I'm a self-avowed control freak when it comes to driving and this would be too much automated control for my tastes.

[scokim]

for Eau Rouge, I don't think Oversteering is the problem but rather Understeering. The trajectory of the car needs to be changed on just before the exit of the 'corner'. Drivers lift because they can see that their cars are drifting too wide to enable them to make that fine adjustment on the exit.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Thats the beauty of TC though. In fast corners you generally setup your car to understeer very slightly. Now that you have TC you can setup your car to be much more skitchy and have good turn in, and let the TC take care of the rest, so you can really free up the car now.

[MattB]

Destroyer,

I agree. The same year with all of the gizmos, 1993, Gerhard Berger had a wild ride in Estoril at the exit of pit lane. His Ferrari reached a high enough speed that the rear of the car automatically lowered and it pitched him off violently almost spearing into Derek Warwick's Footwork.

I can also remember a few times when Schumachers Benetton's launch control bogged him down awfully at the start, Canada and Spa 1993.

Obviously electronics have come very far since then, but teams have got to get used to them again. I would prefer to see manual gearboxes, slicks, and reduced wing sizes, but I'm sure the racing will eventually work out so that it provides us with plenty of excitement.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I thought the estoril story was the TC malfunctioned and he had full throttle on turning out of the pitlane

[HartleyHare]

From what DC has said, TC removes the need for the driver to find the limit once settled in a corner - he can just mash the loud pedal and steer - he was surprised that this meant a turn he previously took at 120mph was now taken at 125mph. No need to feather the throttle, TC reacts so fast it effectively preempts a slide. So Eau Rouge flat out should be possible if you have the right line, even without an 'Eau Rouge set up'.

[Spunout]

I would like to remind you theoretically TC does not increase speeds at all (actually vice versa). It makes driving EASIER and since no driver is perfect it makes driving faster by diminishing wheelspin as an affect of drivers errors. In many posts here people are making TC more than it is. If DC says his exit speeds in corners are 5 mph faster than without TC I´m not going to disagree, but THEORETICALLY if his exit speed is 125 mph with TC, it would be at least 125 without. In practise he can´t get as close to optimum throttle control as TC and therefore he is faster with TC. In my opinion talking about TC preventing slide is a bit confusing because even though it does diminish oversteer by diminishing wheelspin it doesn´t "prevent slide". Once again it´s about friction and contrifugal force. Both are things TC can do nothing about. Only way to affect on contrifugal force is a good driving line which makes corners turning angle smaller. Friction is about mechanical and aerodynamic grip of front and back end of the car, and TC DOES NOT have any kind of effect on grip. That´s why in my opinion it´s not correct to talk about "anti-slide" etc: TC is "anti-wheelspin"-device. In eau rouge there is a massive contrifugal force fighting against mechanic and aerodynamic grip and there is no reason why TC would help to drive it trough with setup not allowing it before. If you really could build anti-slide mechanism you could put it in all wheels of F1 and drive trough bus stop chicane at 320 kph. Too bad it´s not possible. TC is a nice device but it doesn´t do miracles!

[TheDestroyer]

TC is just evil witchcraft!

[Spunout]

"TC is just evil witchcraft!"

It is witchcraft by CART bosses who want to diminish F1s popularity. Rumours tell "TC spell" is made by Dario Franchitti who wanted to make F1 cars easier to drive so he wouldn´t be 2 secs slower in his next F1 test.

Seriously we will see today (when free practise will come from TV) how boring the driving will look like. I hope we will see at least couple of spins...TC might be acceptable in normal passenger cars (only if it can be turned off) but not in F1. Too bad they don´t want to make F1 cars more simple technically.

TC

[HartleyHare]

Obviously TC does not change the limits of lateral grip, it just makes them easier to approach. So the net effect is increased speed over a lap and over a race.

[TheDestroyer]

Spun,

Wouldn't it be interesting if Schumi had a "TC off" switch?

Mid race he finds that he can do better than the TC system, switches off and away he goes...

Hartley,

It's to be seen how much of a net effect TC will have. One would think that TC would make for faster laps, but in reality it reduces power transfer to the tyres so... Unless you're an exceptional driver (hint - Schumi) and get your lines dead on all the time I don't know if we will see as big a reduction in lap times as in the previous races this year.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It doesnt reduce power being applied to the road, it maximises it

[Spunout]

Ross is basically right here. TC drops the power down only when driver uses too much power causing wheelspin causing power not being applied to road in ideal way. As funny as it sounds TC increases the amount of power being applied to road by diminishing power which driver is "asking" for by using full throttle.

"Mid race he finds that he can do better than the TC system, switches off and away he goes..."

I don´t think even MS is THAT good because he would have to beat TC in every corner while TC does even work all the time.