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Daniel Ricciardo vs. Max Verstappen 2016 Part IV


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#101 Casey

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:06

PS

Congrats to Dan as he found the beast mode button on his steering wheel ........again !



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#102 A3

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:11

Does anyone know who is Max' race engineer?

 

 Yesterday he actually told Max to just get on with it when Max complained of being send out in traffic. Never heard that before. 

 

You didn't hear it because it wasn't said. 

 

Max said "Yeah I know, but this isn't long running, I'm always in the traffic" and his engineer replied with:

 

"It's a street circuit mate, we'll just have to deal with it."

 

 

 

 

Come on guys. 



#103 RiccardoPatrese

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:14

Huh?

Yeah, I know... we agreed about the two Ferrari's but since VET is starting from behind we could switch to the Mercs, or at least Rosberg? ;)

#104 zanquis

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:16

Just remind me.
In the last few races, who has out qualified and out raced their team mate ?


Belgium Max outqualified Daniel, ruined his race in first lap. Monza was close but Daniel won q and race but Nax showed to equal on pace. u can't really judge much on just this to make a statement that Daniel is pulling away.

Today Max got his balance wrong but Q1 is meaningless, only a fool would use that to judge any of the drivers to be faster. They just give 95% or 96% to make Q2, in Q2 they where also pretty close and still probably just giving 97 or 98% in Q3 Daniel managed to do a awesome lap, Max was struggling with balance as track conditions change. Those things happen but too little to say someone is pulling away.

#105 mistareno

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:17

I think I read last year in AMuS that after Mercedes implemented their pre chamber technology and had run it a while Toto said they were now trying to extend the actual ignition phase of it to get a bigger and longer bang for their buck. I think AMuS hinted that's where their more powerful Q maps came from.

 

Could that be done with this upgrade from Renault?.

 

It's possible that some adjustment could come from the plugs design or operation, but I imagine the direct injector (that contains the pre-chamber and Jet Ignition Nozzles) would be the main focus on improvements moving forward.

 

By changing the volume and optimizing the size, number and design of the jets, you can probably alter the ignition properties substantially.

 

Renault are playing catch up, as Mercedes has had a few years to refine the concept but that also means they have the most (apart from Honda) to gain.

 

I imagine that next years Renault engine will be basically the same bottom end with a new head design to allow for a better integrated TJI system.

 

The Monaco token count would indicate that Renault probably adapted the TJI system to fit the existing engine architecture, rather than build the engine around the TJI (which is what I reckon Merc did from the start).



#106 PilotPlant91

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:19

It's possible that some adjustment could come from the plugs design or operation, but I imagine the direct injector (that contains the pre-chamber and Jet Ignition Nozzles) would be the main focus on improvements moving forward.

 

By changing the volume and optimizing the size, number and design of the jets, you can probably alter the ignition properties substantially.

 

Renault are playing catch up, as Mercedes has had a few years to refine the concept but that also means they have the most (apart from Honda) to gain.

 

I imagine that next years Renault engine will be basically the same bottom end with a new head design to allow for a better integrated TJI system.

 

The Monaco token count would indicate that Renault probably adapted the TJI system to fit the existing engine architecture, rather than build the engine around the TJI (which is what I reckon Merc did from the start).

 

off topic, did ferrari PU has the same pre chamber stuff?


Edited by PilotPlant91, 17 September 2016 - 16:19.


#107 PilotPlant91

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:20

Belgium Max outqualified Daniel, ruined his race in first lap. Monza was close but Daniel won q and race but Nax showed to equal on pace. u can't really judge much on just this to make a statement that Daniel is pulling away.

Today Max got his balance wrong but Q1 is meaningless, only a fool would use that to judge any of the drivers to be faster. They just give 95% or 96% to make Q2, in Q2 they where also pretty close and still probably just giving 97 or 98% in Q3 Daniel managed to do a awesome lap, Max was struggling with balance as track conditions change. Those things happen but too little to say someone is pulling away.

 

it does seems daniel has edge on quali, while both are equal on race pace with max having slight edge in extending the tyre stint.



#108 mistareno

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:24

off topic, did ferrari PU has the same pre chamber stuff?

 

Yeah, Ferrari introduced their TJI system (using technical knowledge from Mahle - which holds patents on a commercial TJI system) last year (at Monza iirc)

 

I don't know if Renault went their own route, but the fundamentals of the system are actually fairly basic, but there are so many new variables introduced (pre-chamber nozzle design/number/trajectory, pre-chamber volume and shape, Injector design etc) that there is probably a lot to still be gained in fine tuning.


Edited by mistareno, 17 September 2016 - 16:28.


#109 zanquis

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:28

it does seems daniel has edge on quali, while both are equal on race pace with max having slight edge in extending the tyre stint.


Not denying that Daniel wins qualifying, but often the margins are small, they start pretty close together. teams don't care about it if driver A or B beats the other driver 20-0 but always lines up next to him. They just care that drivers get (close to) the maximum out of the car. Who wins the teambattle? Irrelevant cause only the wcc counts, not the wdc.

#110 PilotPlant91

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:30

Yeah, Ferrari introduced their TJI system (using technical knowledge from Mahle - which holds patents on a commercial TJI system) last year (at Monza iirc)

 

I don't know if Renault went their own route, but the fundamentals of the system are actually fairly basic, but there are so many new variables introduced (pre-chamber nozzle design/number/trajectory, pre-chamber volume and shape, Injector design etc) that there is probably a lot to still be gained in fine tuning.

 

Still merc are able to extract more boost from this TJI...in comparison to ferrari;

 

Imagine rbr pace with TJI, man.....next 7 race could be interesting!!



#111 mistareno

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:33

Still merc are able to extract more boost from this TJI...in comparison to ferrari;

 

Imagine rbr pace with TJI, man.....next 7 race could be interesting!!

 

Red Bull have had TJI since Monaco. This latest upgrade is most likely just a minor change designed to optimize efficiency on what is still an immature technology (for Renault).

 

I know Spark Plugs have been mentioned, but I'd almost put money on revised injectors/TJI nozzles being among the new components.

 

It's worth noting that in a TJI setup the Direct Injector and Spark Plug live in the same housing and the whole assembly is fitted into the head where the spark plug normally goes...

 

For 3 tokens, they can alter the following under "Combustion system"

Ports, Piston crown, Combustion chamber, Valves geometry, timing, lift, injector nozzle, coils, spark plug Excluded: Valves position.


Edited by mistareno, 17 September 2016 - 16:43.


#112 Clatter

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:37

Generally, yes. Softer compounds better at starts. Merc have been weak there in past though.

It appeared from Q that the RBs had to work the tyres harder to get them working, so Rosberg just needs to do a slow parade lap and nullify any potential advantage.

#113 PilotPlant91

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:42

Red Bull have had TJI since Monaco. This latest upgrade is most likely just a minor change designed to optimize efficiency on what is still an immature technology (for Renault).

 

I know Spark Plugs have been mentioned, but I'd almost put money on revised injectors being the new component.

 

It's worth noting that in a TJI setup the Direct Injector and Spark Plug live in the same housing and the whole assembly is fitted into the head where the spark plug normally goes...

 

So if you are going to rate who are at forefront with TJI development, is renault now on par with ferrari? obviously Merc is way ahead



#114 FullOppositeLock

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:43

Not denying that Daniel wins qualifying, but often the margins are small, they start pretty close together. teams don't care about it if driver A or B beats the other driver 20-0 but always lines up next to him. They just care that drivers get (close to) the maximum out of the car. Who wins the teambattle? Irrelevant cause only the wcc counts, not the wdc.


Of course they do. What is this nonsense? If Max was beating Daniel by this amount us Max fans would be insufferable :)

#115 mistareno

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:49

So if you are going to rate who are at forefront with TJI development, is Renault now on par with ferrari? obviously Merc is way ahead

 

It's hard to say. Ferrari probably had more initial knowledge by teaming with Mahle so they probably made a bigger jump as soon as they fitted it.

 

I'm sure Renault tested their system thoroughly, but without the wealth of knowledge provided by Mahle (who have had their system in development for a decade), they have probably had a more gradual improvement curve - which is why the engine has constantly improved throughout the year despite no updates  -  just through tuning improvements.

 

The other positive thing may be that, if all the development and research was done 'in house' Renault may ultimately have a better understanding of where future gains can be found. By relying on a multi-national such as Mahle (who have their fingers in many different pies) Ferrari may end up behind the eightball when hp becomes harder and harder to find...

 

I personally think Ferrari - in trying to catch up quickly and using a system developed externally - may end up paying for that dearly in the long run.


Edited by mistareno, 17 September 2016 - 16:53.


#116 Windows

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:50

Still merc are able to extract more boost from this TJI...in comparison to ferrari;

Imagine rbr pace with TJI, man.....next 7 race could be interesting!!


Don't hope too much. If RBR fall behind more than 0.5 sec on track like Singapore Gp.

#117 Ijsman

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:53

Looks to me they all got the new fuel now instead of just Max but they also spend 3 tokens on new spark plugs to take full advantage of that new fuel but Max didn't like the new engine characteristics very much in the low rpm regions  and so these plugs where removed again .

Ok.
Max had the 3 token upgrade.
They all had the fuel.
Abiteboul is stating that the 3 token Mod will allow Max to get the maximum from the fuel.
Horner tries to downplay the token upgrade (in relation to the new Fuel)
Abiteboul gives Horner the WTF look.
Horner ends conversation...


I imagine that Horner has told Ricciardo and Max that the new fuel is the main benefit.

This would explain why they both seemed a bit confused when questioned during the weekend...

Conclusion: Horner wouldn't lie straight in bed...

Wait so Max did get the new engine, ok im good now.

Guys, Max didn't even get the new engine which had extra tokens, confirms it as "BS" in this interview. Max and Ric had thesame equipment. The interview was held on friday after FP2.


Edited by Ijsman, 17 September 2016 - 16:53.


#118 YoungGun

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:53

I thought it was cute that the "The Verstappen Family" was in the RBR Garage.  :up:



#119 PilotPlant91

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:54

It's hard to say. Ferrari probably had more initial knowledge by teaming with Mahle so they probably made a bigger jump as soon as they fitted it.

 

I'm sure Renault tested their system thoroughly, but without the wealth of knowledge provided by Mahle (who have had their system in development for a decade), they have probably had a more gradual improvement curve - which is why the engine has constantly improved throughout the year despite no updates  -  just through tuning improvements.

 

The other positive thing may be that, if all the development and research was done 'in house' Renault may ultimately have a better understanding of where future gains can be found. By relying on a multi-national such as Mahle, who have their fingers in many pies, Ferrari may end up behind the eightball when hp becomes harder and harder to find...

 

No loss though, merc's version already more advance than Mahle 's given their boost was so huge compared to ferrari.

 

I think renault is on the right path



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#120 mistareno

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:54

Guys, Max didn't even get the new engine which had extra tokens, confirms it as "BS" in this interview. Max and Ric had thesame equipment. The interview was held on friday after FP2.

 

Alot has happened since FP2...



#121 Ijsman

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 16:59

Alot has happened since FP2...

Really? Source(s)?



#122 mistareno

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 17:01

Really? Source(s)?

 
Scroll back a few pages...
 
 
 
Here are the highlights...
  • Pre Race, Renault stated Max was due for a new engine here, and hence would receive the upgrade (with the other 3 engines upgraded in Malaysia)
  • Yesterday, when asked on Sky (below), Horner stated that Max had a new engine (from his allocation) and that both Max and Dan had the same spec. This contradicted what Renault had said pre-race.
  • A story then emerged overnight stating EVERY Renault team would have the new upgraded today. The story was apparently bogus.
  • Horner was asked about the engine situation again in the interview below, but unfortunately this time he was in the presence of Cyril - who confirmed that only Max had the 3 Token upgrade and everyone had the new fuel.
  • The 3 Token upgrade maximizes the power gain from the new fuel. Renault has not confirmed what the Token spend entails, but the speculation is Spark Plug/Ignition related.
  • Horner then tries to play down the advantage of the 3 token upgrade (in relation to the fuel) which is obviously not true, based on Cyril's response.
  • There has also been some unconfirmed reports that Max had the upgrade removed, but that hasn't been confirmed and seems unlikely.
  • Comments from BOTH drivers indicate that they have NFI what is going on.
Confused?
 
Welcome to the club...

Edited by mistareno, 17 September 2016 - 17:28.


#123 Ijsman

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 17:11

Scroll back a few pages...

 

 

 

Max had the 3 Token upgrade.

 

Everyone had the new fuel.

 

The upgrade maximises the power gain from the new fuel.

 

There is still some advantage in the fuel alone, which is why all the Renault powered cars are using it.

 

There has been some unconfirmed reports that Max had the upgrade removed, but that hasn't been confirmed and seems unlikely.

I already saw that and I get it. What is weird though is that Max says he didn't even get the engine on friday. And this interview with the team personnel is probably after FP2 as well, right? The team personnel interview was aired on today on ziggo, but that doesn't mean it happened today. 

 

But what they say is that Max 'gets it'. So maybe they meant he would still get it (the token engine), from FP3 on? 


Edited by Ijsman, 17 September 2016 - 17:11.


#124 mistareno

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 17:15

I already saw that and I get it. What is weird though is that Max says he didn't even get the engine on friday. And this interview with the team personnel is probably after FP2 as well, right? The team personnel interview was aired on today on ziggo, but that doesn't mean it happened today. 

 

But what they say is that Max 'gets it'. So maybe they meant he would still get it (the token engine), from FP3 on? 

 

Horner says "Max has the Fuel and a few tokens"



#125 Ijsman

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 17:25

Horner says "Max has the Fuel and a few tokens"

Yes I know he said that, and maybe it is true. But it's still weird that Max said he didn't have it... let's call up inspector Morse. 



#126 Risil

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 17:31

Maybe Max literally didn't know. It's not like the new engine has an extra two cylinders or is glowing red or anything.



#127 Ijsman

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 17:33

I heard that Horner said on Sky that Max did get a new engine on friday, but not with the new specs. Ohhh, the mystery.



#128 mistareno

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 17:36

I heard that Horner said on Sky that Max did get a new engine on friday, but not with the new specs. Ohhh, the mystery.


You are literally 24 hours late to this party...

#129 Ijsman

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 17:41

You are literally 24 hours late to this party...

So what? Still nobody knows what happened, so it's still relevant. 



#130 Growing

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 17:43

I felt like embarrassing to watch this interview with horner and cyril. We saw jos verstappen inside the red bull boxes... May be he had demanded new tokens for his puppy, as Ric had new Pu earlier in Monaco. And perhaps Ricciardo was not aware. Where is our friend SPARKY68?

#131 mistareno

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 17:47

So what? Still nobody knows what happened, so it's still relevant.


No, we know what has happened now.

Max had a 3 token upgrade fitted to a scheduled new engine for Singapore.

All 4 drivers are using the new fuel.

The other 3 drivers will have the new spec at the next race in Malaysia.

Based on the confusion from the drivers and the lies and half-truths from Horner, it would appear that the drivers were misled as to whether a token upgrade was actually fitted, and/or the relative benefit of the upgrade versus the new fuel.

The only thing that isn't 100% is whether Max still has the upgrade fitted as there was a rumor that it had been taken off the motor prior to Q or FP3.

Edited by mistareno, 17 September 2016 - 17:54.


#132 Ijsman

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 17:59

I felt like embarrassing to watch this interview with horner and cyril. We saw jos verstappen inside the red bull boxes... May be he had demanded new tokens for his puppy, as Ric had new Pu earlier in Monaco. And perhaps Ricciardo was not aware. Where is our friend SPARKY68?

Since when does Jos have a puppy? Any pics?



#133 mistareno

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 18:24

Since when does Jos have a puppy? Any pics?

 

Only what he posted on Snapchat...

 

woofstappen.jpg


Edited by mistareno, 17 September 2016 - 18:26.


#134 A3

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 18:30

Verstappen not happy with Q:

http://www.autosport...e-in-qualifying

 

Verstappen explained that he had difficulty getting the ultra-soft tyres on his Red Bull to work properly over the first sector of the lap.

"I just couldn't get the front tyres to work in the first sector and it just snowballs," he said.

 

"You can't get them ready, you don't feel comfortable, you start locking tyres, and then sector two and three you're not getting the most out of it because in sector one you're killing the understeer by going on the throttle, but that kills your rear tyres.

"As soon as you feel comfortable in the car it's a lot of lap time around this track, so the differences can be bigger if you feel comfortable.

 

"The whole weekend I've been happy, and then the moment it had to be done I was not happy.

 

"You don't feel comfortable and then you can't take the risk you usually take because you're just fighting the car.

"I think today the car was driving me because I couldn't feel it like I wanted to.

"It was not a fantastic qualifying."


Edited by A3, 17 September 2016 - 18:30.


#135 Pyrone89

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 18:49

Good lap by RIC, average by Verstappen (but still within 2 tenths in a car that didn't suit him). Let's hope for a double podium tomorrow, however, I think 1.ROS, 2.HAM, 3.RIC 4.VES 5.RAI is going to be more likely tomorrow.

 

PS: just found out the Ignore Preferences and I can advice it for everyone who is getting tired of the most obvious fanboys from either side. Can also recommend the 'ignore signature from all members' as it saves a lot of scrolling


Edited by Pyrone89, 17 September 2016 - 18:55.


#136 Ijsman

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 19:03

Only what he posted on Snapchat...

 

woofstappen.jpg

Sure...



#137 Pyrone89

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 19:10

Sure...

It seems the level of debate has now dropped to 'Snapchat kiddies' in this topic.  :down:



#138 Marklar

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 19:11

Can also recommend the 'ignore signature from all members' as it saves a lot of scrolling

Nah, some people have nice signatures  :p



#139 Ijsman

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 19:29

It seems the level of debate has now dropped to 'Snapchat kiddies' in this topic.  :down:

Let's hope this was the lowest point. 

 

About the Q laps of Max and Ric, it seems Ric was in thesame boat as Max if you look at the laptime, 2 tenths isn't that much over a long lap. So I suspect Ric also had trouble with the tyres, but managed it better. Max said that he didn't get them up to temperature in S1, and that the bad state of the tyres snowballed from there. Considering how bad Max' comments sound, 2 tenths off Daniel isn't that bad. Daniel didn't mention any problems with the tyres though, maybe he just went more 'tyre saving mode' in the first sector than Max? I bet that at this moment Max knows, or is analyzing what he could have done better and looking at Daniel's data. I'd love to see their Q laps and compare them. If anyone has some good footage, feel free to PM me. 



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#140 A3

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 19:41

Max said he had to push too hard overtaking the Mercs. Next to that the balance just wasn't there.

#141 mistareno

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 19:56

Max said he had to push too hard overtaking the Mercs. Next to that the balance just wasn't there.


I wonder how much the overnight drop in minimum tyre pressures altered the balance?

It was only 1psi, but we've all seen how fickle the tyres can be over recent times...

Neither driver seemed to have the 100% confidence today that is needed on a street circuit...

Hopefully all will gel tomorrow...

Edited by mistareno, 17 September 2016 - 20:06.


#142 Pyrone89

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 20:30

I wonder how much the overnight drop in minimum tyre pressures altered the balance?

It was only 1psi, but we've all seen how fickle the tyres can be over recent times...

Neither driver seemed to have the 100% confidence today that is needed on a street circuit...

Hopefully all will gel tomorrow...

But only the rear tyres had a lowered PSI, not the front tyres which where the problem



#143 Marklar

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 20:39

https://www.youtube....h?v=LT9dPorUiLg

This video is the weekend in a nutshell :lol:

#144 Ijsman

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 20:43

This video is the weekend in a nutshell :lol:

And the comments under it are this thread in a nutshell



#145 HeadFirst

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 22:11

Maybe Max literally didn't know. It's not like the new engine has an extra two cylinders or is glowing red or anything.

 

Well that ^ is disappointing.



#146 lbennie

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 22:55

There's always an excuse. Where as ric just gets it done



#147 RPM40

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Posted 17 September 2016 - 23:47

Good lap by RIC, average by Verstappen (but still within 2 tenths in a car that didn't suit him). Let's hope for a double podium tomorrow, however, I think 1.ROS, 2.HAM, 3.RIC 4.VES 5.RAI is going to be more likely tomorrow.

 

 

 

Verstappen wasn't within 2 tenths. The gap was 0.213.



#148 RPM40

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 00:09

Verstappen not happy with Q:

http://www.autosport...e-in-qualifying

 

I have a suspicion a lot of the 'strangeties" up and down the grid are due to tyre temperature/pressure. I really hate these narrow window Pirelli tyres. Often when a driver is slow they're not doing anything wrong but the tyres are just slightly out of the optimal window. 



#149 PilotPlant91

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 00:15

I have a suspicion a lot of the 'strangeties" up and down the grid are due to tyre temperature/pressure. I really hate these narrow window Pirelli tyres. Often when a driver is slow they're not doing anything wrong but the tyres are just slightly out of the optimal window. 

 

yea, and thats because pirelli cant make good tyre



#150 RPM40

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Posted 18 September 2016 - 00:17

yea, and thats because pirelli cant make good tyre

 

Its what F1 asks for to create variance in the race. Different tyres strategies and races with multiple pitstops. I don't want the return of 1 stop races.

 

I mean, maybe they could make a mandatory 2 stop race and give us an actual raceable tyre.