172 replies to this topic

[FredrikB]

New racing series. Launched today. Electric GT.

It was mentioned in some Formula E thread but we where not sure if it was legit.

 

I think it is.

https://twitter.com/EGTChampionship

 

Video:

https://twitter.com/...224990252625920

 

More news later today i guess...

 

 

[FredrikB]

[LeClerc]

Maybe the can shoehorn enough battery into a GT to actually be able to finish a race.

I have enjoyed FormulaE, but the carswapping in the middle of a rather short race is cringe worthy.

Edited by LeClerc, 27 September 2016 - 09:40.

[chrisPB15]

Maybe the can shoehorn enough battery into a GT to actually be able to finish a race.

I have enjoyed FormulaE, but the carswapping in the middle of a rather short race is cringe worthy.

 

They already have battery swap technology from Williams, but at the moment it seems they swap cars for safety reasons. I don't see a problem with swapping cars myself, not sure about the obsession with making Formula E just like every other Formula, when clearly motorsport has lost young fans. Why would kids today just learning about motorsport care less? same with fanboost. their heads are buried in smart phones so why not draw them in.

 

 

http://fiaformulae.c...ms-battery.aspx

 

 

But what about changing batteries? Could it be done if the rules were written differently? “It would be quite an interesting technical challenge,” admits Campling, “we had a solution in Formula 1 that allowed the battery to be dropped out and plugged straight back in again with all the fluid and electrical solutions made and broken in a single incidence, so it is feasible for sure.”

 

“We have more energy in the battery than the FIA allows the teams to use,” reveals Okan Tur, the chief technical specialist for hybrid systems. “FIA regulations says the cell weight has to be limited to 200kg and the output of the battery can be no more than 28kw/h, so we designed a battery with some excess stored energy levels that stayed within the FIA regulations.”

 

While the sheer size of the Formula E battery means there’s no mistaking it for one Williams developed for its F1 programme, the knowledge flow between the programmes has been very evident. “In terms of electronic hardware architecture, it is 100 per cent the same just modified for the additional requirements of Formula E regulations,” adds Tur.

“Fire containment and suppression technology has been carried over,” says Campling, “we were able to advise on the temperature containment strategy. The structure has a built-in Faraday cage and thermal barrier, which is extremely important in Formula 1 where you have a battery and a fuel tank on top of it. We were able to demonstrate in Formula 1 that we could have a battery fire yet the temperature seen by the fuel cell was less than 70 degrees, and that we were able to pass this concept on to Dallara to build into their safety cell.”

Edited by chrisPB15, 27 September 2016 - 10:07.

[Jackmancer]

Maybe the can shoehorn enough battery into a GT to actually be able to finish a race.

I have enjoyed FormulaE, but the carswapping in the middle of a rather short race is cringe worthy.

Well, and a stock Tesla Model S cannot complete one lap around the Nurburgring (long lap) without overheating its battery!

[chrisPB15]

I mentioned this in the other thread for the people moaning about car swapping and fanboost not being 'traditional'  , however I bet we see some hypocrisy with people who will claim this offers nothing 'new' or 'innovative' 

 

This series can take advantage of those tracks that are increasingly put under pressure for noise and may even open up new possibilities, which is what I hope happens with Motorcross. 

 

 

the below electric car site is regularly updated with all things EV and this was their recent article on the GT series

 

https://electrek.co/...a-championship/

[chrisPB15]

Well, and a stock Tesla Model S cannot complete one lap around the Nurburgring (long lap) without overheating its battery!

 

A Dragster can't even go around corners!

[LeClerc]

I mentioned this in the other thread for the people moaning about car swapping and fanboost not being 'traditional' , however I bet we see some hypocrisy with people who will claim this offers nothing 'new' or 'innovative'

This series can take advantage of those tracks that are increasingly put under pressure for noise and may even open up new possibilities, which is what I hope happens with Motorcross.


the below electric car site is regularly updated with all things EV and this was their recent article on the GT series

https://electrek.co/...a-championship/

I don't care if it's traditional, after all we don't race chariots anymore. I just think batteries will never hack it, neither in racing nor in personal transport.

Maybe fuelcells could do the business. I lust for the torque of an electric drive.

Edited by LeClerc, 27 September 2016 - 11:22.

[FredrikB]

Well, and a stock Tesla Model S cannot complete one lap around the Nurburgring (long lap) without overheating its battery!

That is, obviously, one of the modifications on the Electric Gt Tesla.

[Sash1]

Well, and a stock Tesla Model S cannot complete one lap around the Nurburgring (long lap) without overheating its battery!

 

There are a couple of options.

1) More cooling, rip out everything uneccesary and put more cooling on/towards the car floor (batteries)

2) Limit torque and thus limit what is required from the battery, lower drain speed

3) 1+2

 

You could still end up with the equivalent of a Porsche 911 GT3 RS (500hp peak)

 

Does anyone know how fast a Tesla drains its battery at racing speed (for the moment ignoring power cut off thanks to battery heat)?

[Sash1]

Looks like they use a 2WD P85D link

What to expect? 300hp? Slower than WTCC speed? Can you call that GT?

[superden]

Batteries will never hack it, neither in racing nor in personal transport.

Long term no, not even vaguely. They aren't 'green' in the slightest either, in production, implementation or transportation. It's fundamentally outdated and dead technology already. It's a neat way for manufacturers to cream off as much profit for the shareholders as they can in the short term though.

[senna da silva]

Long term no, not even vaguely. They aren't 'green' in the slightest either, in production, implementation or transportation. It's fundamentally outdated and dead technology already. It's a neat way for manufacturers to cream off as much profit for the shareholders as they can in the short term though.

 

The FIA needs to loosen the regs on batteries and allow R&D to develop alternative solutions, such as molten salt batteries.

https://en.wikipedia...en_salt_battery

[FredrikB]

Looks like they use a 2WD P85D link

What to expect? 300hp? Slower than WTCC speed? Can you call that GT?

 

It's all in the torque for an electric motor. Let's see.

 

The negativity here is soo much like when Formula E started. And look where they are now? It's the place to be for manufacturers.

[FredrikB]

I just think batteries will never hack it, neither in racing nor in personal transport.

 

I think you are wrong, but this is not the thread for it. This is about a racing series.

[LeClerc]

I think you are wrong, but this is not the thread for it. This is about a racing series.

You're right. I'll get my coat

[Jackmancer]

 

Does anyone know how fast a Tesla drains its battery at racing speed (for the moment ignoring power cut off thanks to battery heat)?

 

We let a fully charged stock Model S race at Zandvoort and it could do about 15 laps. Had to cool every 3 laps.

[muramasa]

　

looking forward to this but I got bored already with "E" or "Electric" and the use of mint green/blue for representing electric-ness. Too paternalistic...they better think of different promotion method.

[thegamer23]

It's all in the torque for an electric motor. Let's see.

 

The negativity here is soo much like when Formula E started. And look where they are now? It's the place to be for manufacturers.

 

The difference and the problem in this Electric GT Serie, in my opinion, is that it just looks like a Tesla showcase championship.

Even if in the first season of Formula E most of the development was locked, the future manufacturers were already there: Renault, Audi, Mahindra, Venturi, Penkse (Andretti). 
Electric GT is all spec instead, with no real competition between any manufacturer. 

Plus, Formula E races in the city centers, in bumpy street circuits, creating chaos, drama & very close racing. Those Electric GT cars will instead race in traditional circuits, and they'll probably look very slow & boring to the casual fan. 
Also, Formula E's debut season already attracted some of the best non F1 drivers out there like Buemi, Vergne, Da Costa, Bird. 

EGT needs also a strong line-up to gain interest. 

 

I really hope to be proved wrong, but i can see this championship doing an A1 GP very soon. But let's wait for some more informations from today's conference

 

Edited by thegamer23, 27 September 2016 - 13:32.

[Fastcake]

I've been expecting an electric GT series to launch eventually, but right now seems a bit too soon. Apart from Tesla, the high performance market isn't exactly filled with fully electric cars. You've also got to deal with the range issue, either with battery swapping, which is potentially problematic in a racing environment, or car swapping, which is not really a good advert. Unless you're planning to do ultra-short sprint races, but that restricts you to short tracks with good overtaking possibilities, else it won't be worth its while.

Edited by Fastcake, 27 September 2016 - 13:32.

[sidewinder26]

I'd love to see a well prepared Model S on the track. The chassis has tremendous handling. If temperature and reliability issues get sorted for track use it will make a great race car.

[quaint]

I don't care if it's traditional, after all we don't race chariots anymore. I just think batteries will never hack it, neither in racing nor in personal transport.

 

Your government will force batteries to hack it in personal transport in its jurisdiction, even if it means degraded level of transport. Luckily for us, the energy requirement for personal transport is very, very much lower than for racing, and will soon-ish be able to offer reasonable range with a reasonable cost; but battery powered cars will be ways off even for Formula 1 level sprint racing for a very long time, even if battery swapping is allowed.

[quaint]

I'd love to see a well prepared Model S on the track. The chassis has tremendous handling. If temperature and reliability issues get sorted for track use it will make a great race car.

 

For drag racing, maybe. Even the most souped up Model S (the 100 kWh version) contains the energy equivalent of less than 8 kg of gasoline (yes, that's not all there is to it, but it drives the point). That will get you a couple of hundred miles on the road, depending on the time of the year and location – but not even nearly as far on track, even without considering the overheating issues; and do remember, it's not race car light with all its batteries, but more like a 3 ton juggernaut.

Edited by quaint, 27 September 2016 - 15:15.

[senna da silva]

For drag racing, maybe. Even the most souped up Model S (the 100 kWh version) contains the energy equivalent of less than 8 kg of gasoline (yes, that's not all there is to it, but it drives the point). That will get you a couple of hundred miles on the road, depending on the time of the year and location – but not even nearly as far on track, even without considering the overheating issues; and do remember, it's not race car light with all its batteries, but more like a 3 ton juggernaut.

 

8kg of gasoline doesn't go very far on a race track compared to the road either.

[quaint]

8kg of gasoline doesn't go very far on a race track compared to the road either.

 

Of course, that's why you put in a lot more when racing (on the road as well, mind you). However, that's a lot harder with batteries (and would make the car even heavier) – 8 kg is 8 kg, Tesla's batteries are several hundred kg.

[senna da silva]

Of course, that's why you put in a lot more when racing (on the road as well, mind you). However, that's a lot harder with batteries (and would make the car even heavier) – 8 kg is 8 kg, Tesla's batteries are several hundred kg.

 

That's why I said above that the FIA should open up the regs on battery technology. 

Furthermore, there are lots of GT categories that exist with ICEs already. I'm not sure I understand your objection to an electric-GT series.

Edited by senna da silva, 27 September 2016 - 17:11.

[BRG]

I mentioned this in the other thread for the people moaning about car swapping and fanboost not being 'traditional'  , however I bet we see some hypocrisy with people who will claim this offers nothing 'new' or 'innovative' 

 

Sorry,but not being able to complete a fairly modest race distance without swapping cars does not count as being 'innovative'.

Edited by BRG, 27 September 2016 - 17:10.

[quaint]

I'm not sure I understand your objection to an electric-GT series.

Even though I'm at heart a petrolhead, I'm not the least objected to an all-electric GT series. However, should the cars store their energies in batteries, they will not be competitive, relatively speaking, and I'm personally not interested in cruise "racing".
 

That's why I said above that the FIA should open up the regs on battery technology.

 

That will not make much of a difference; lithium-ion batteries are the top of the known crop and as good as they come. Furthermore, with batteries you can't have a breakthrough with money alone – you can spend all you want, and not come up with a revelation. Not that this kind of small new GT series would have anywhere near the amount of money to make a difference on battery development.

[senna da silva]

Even though I'm at heart a petrolhead, I'm not the least objected to an all-electric GT series. However, should the cars store their energies in batteries, they will not be competitive, relatively speaking, and I'm personally not interested in cruise "racing".
 

 

That will not make much of a difference; lithium-ion batteries are the top of the known crop and as good as they come. Furthermore, with batteries you can't have a breakthrough with money alone – you can spend all you want, and not come up with a revelation. Not that this kind of small new GT series would have anywhere near the amount of money to make a difference on battery development.

 

It should be F1 where the regs should be opened and then the tech can trickle down. 

Liquid metal batteries have a lot of potential.

Edited by senna da silva, 27 September 2016 - 18:20.

[Xentas]

Eventually battery designs will evolve and one day there won't be any need for car swapping in the pits, just a pitstop for tyres and off you go. i hope the battery design changes as well, instead of any type of lethal chemical concoction it can be more powerful and last longer under higher temps and overall and is a lot more eco friendly when being recycled.

[BRG]

We let a fully charged stock Model S race at Zandvoort and it could do about 15 laps. Had to cool every 3 laps.

That actually rather shows up Formula E in its current guise.  With smaller and presumably lighter cars which should also corner better than a road going Tesla they still wouldn't manage to do any better than that.  PRoof - if we needed it - that Formula E has been far too conservative and is already behind the game rather than being the innovative technology leader that some claim it to be.  In fact Lord Dyson built a better electric racer several years ago.  

 

An E-GT series would be interesting and a lot more road relevant than a single seater series.  But it is basically only Tesla and perhaps BMW that have potential cars ATM, so maybe a bit premature.

[tokengator82]

I guess I am another anti-technology person but I really really really hate the sound of the electric motors. Not only do I not like the sound, I find it nails on a chalk board annoying

[LeClerc]

In FormulaE I rather enjoy that one can hear the tires working

[Thursday]

The car swap in Formula E is silly and the fact that it is almost a spec series means no development of batteries which is a missed opportunity in my book.

 

There is currently (pun intended) a lot of research going into different battery technologies.

Some of this is driven (second pun) by the demands of mobile phone and smart watch manufacturers as well as car manufacturers for lighter faster charging batteries with increased capacity.

Racing GT cars seems like a good way for car manufacturers to test/prototype/market these developments when they happen. The problem is they haven't happened yet.

[TF110]

Think that is why brands like Toyota are not in formula e. They're not interested in using someone else's technology. It's spec also, which is even more of a deterrent. Some others have jumped on board with f-e and imo it's to ride the cheap eco-friendly bandwagon. Hopefully this e-gt is more open than that and there's actually development competition in it's future.

[Xentas]

I doubt the batteries could haul around over 1000kg of car around for very long, even a 600kg FE car drains the battery but not as much as lugging around all that extra weight and the power requirements to move something that heavy from zero means it needs more power than a FE car as well and constant power to drive the car around and power for high speeds. an ERS system under braking that could take all that energy under loads and dump it into the batteries would be useful to have but some tracks may not be heavy on braking for the car to work as well, perhaps a fly wheel that produces energy could be used?

 

Electric technologies is the way forward, eventually fossil fuels and the idea of keeping all the black gold back for ransom will finally be over and things will be cheap and eco friendly at last. I for one can't wait to see China without smog clouds!

[pingu666]

a better solution than batteries is running things like bumper cars, electric trains and scaletrix, remove the need for a large capacity battery and suddenly electric makes alot more sense.

 

but in terms of a crazy all out effort for electric/hybrid in racing, then thats probably nissians effort at le mans, ok they messed up because torotrack couldnt deliver and they then had to bodge stuff together in what was already a rushed program, but the car was really quick on the straights with awful awful corner exits, and no hybrid, and babying the brakes like they where made by pirelli, and running lean mix and lift n coast due to fuel flow issues

[asdf24]

Eventually battery designs will evolve and one day there won't be any need for car swapping in the pits

 

There's a fundamental limit on energy density.

[Pierce89]

I doubt the batteries could haul around over 1000kg of car around for very long, even a 600kg FE car drains the battery but not as much as lugging around all that extra weight and the power requirements to move something that heavy from zero means it needs more power than a FE car as well and constant power to drive the car around and power for high speeds. an ERS system under braking that could take all that energy under loads and dump it into the batteries would be useful to have but some tracks may not be heavy on braking for the car to work as well, perhaps a fly wheel that produces energy could be used?

Electric technologies is the way forward, eventually fossil fuels and the idea of keeping all the black gold back for ransom will finally be over and things will be cheap and eco friendly at last. I for one can't wait to see China without smog clouds!

Unfortunately FE cars are way over 600kg. Its like >800

Edited by Pierce89, 28 September 2016 - 02:32.

[TF110]

F-E batteries are not the best on the market. Far from it actually. If they had open rules on them there would be more power and longer running, I'm sure of it.

[FredrikB]

F-E batteries are not the best on the market. Far from it actually. If they had open rules on them there would be more power and longer running, I'm sure of it.

 

They are playing it safe, hopefully this series will not play it that safe.

 

If it gets up and running successfully. I was expecting more drivers, tracks, dates, partners etc. to be presented yesterday. Not just one car. One car does not a racing series make...    

Edited by FredrikB, 28 September 2016 - 07:27.

[quaint]

F-E batteries are not the best on the market. Far from it actually. If they had open rules on them there would be more power and longer running, I'm sure of it.

 

I don't think many here appreciate the worth of  battery technology. New tech is not popping left and right not because there's not a small Formula E team allowed to do it – it's not done because it's very, very hard.

 

A revolutionary battery technology itself is worth north of a trillion dollars. Even the whole of R&D of F1 might not advance the tech noticeably.

[Vielleicht]

More or less two months until the planned inaugural race at Paul Ricard. Perhaps worryingly they have yet to announce the teams involved or a solid calendar beyond the first race. Their twitter account is still active and posting daily, but little is being shown about the preparations. It's odd - like they're there but also not.

 

They do however have a list of drivers signed up to race:

Stefan Wilson  

Vittoria Piria   

Leilani Münter   

Dani Clos   

Tom Coronel   

Alice Powell   

Ricardo Teixeira   

Tom Onslow-Cole   

Emma Kimiläinen   

Oliver Webb   

Wolfgang Reip   

Alexandre Prémat   

Stephen Cox   

Jeroen Bleekemolen   

Kevin Ceccon   

George Richardson   

Olivier Lombard  

 

Even so, looking back Formula E was amazingly organised in comparison.

 

I guess we will find out more in the coming weeks... possibly... maybe....I mean who knows with their publicity team!

 

 

 

EDIT: So, found this article which explains things a bit. Suggests first racing will now be spring/summer 2018. Hmm.

Edited by Vielleicht, 23 September 2017 - 00:25.

[scolbourne]

Electric has already proven itself at places like Pikes Peak where they are among the fastest cars and bikes.

 

I would like to see open rules so that each team can try different ideas to get the best from batteries. The IOM TT has a class for electric bikes where it is very innovative.

The picture below shows an electric Hooper. 

 

https://www.facebook...&type=3

 

With current technology I think battery swaps will be needed unless the races are very short, but it would be interesting to follow progress over the years as cars, motors and batteries improve.

[DS27]

 

 The IOM TT has a class for electric bikes where it is very innovative.

 

 

This has had a mere handful of competitors, that hasn't increased year on year, and seems generally unpopular with teams, riders and spectators alike.

 

The fact that lap times over the last 4 years haven't really improved isn't a great advert for battery technology.

[Fatgadget]

Maybe the can shoehorn enough battery into a GT to actually be able to finish a race.

I have enjoyed FormulaE, but the carswapping in the middle of a rather short race is cringe worthy.

Only a question of time before battery capacity  no longer an issue. Heck.Back in the day the dawn of motor racing they had mechanics riding shotgun did they not? Im in the leccy bike industry and over the space of half a generarion  battery capacity has doubled; but more importantly weight  of the storage cells almost halved.  

[ArrowsLivery]

Who is this for? GT racing is traditionally for gentlemen drivers who own their own cars.

[Fatgadget]

I guess I am another anti-technology person but I really really really hate the sound of the electric motors. Not only do I not like the sound, I find it nails on a chalk board annoying

Au contre!...I love the sound of breaking glass....I love the whirring sound of an electric motor! Or even better; should it be completly silent!

[Fatgadget]

Who is this for? GT racing is traditionally for gentlemen drivers who own their own cars.

Yes .But isnt that the traditional trajectory most racing series take? => Eventualy said filthy rich 'gentleman' gets bored and or runs out of talent =>recruits a young hotshot full of bravado and beans and voila; a top flight team is formed!

[LeClerc]

Only a question of time before battery capacity  no longer an issue. Heck.Back in the day the dawn of motor racing they had mechanics riding shotgun did they not? Im in the leccy bike industry and over the space of half a generarion  battery capacity has doubled; but more importantly weight  of the storage cells almost halved.

 

As I've understood it FE will run a full race in one car from next season. Better.

 

All we need now is meaningful speeds at actual race-tracks.

 

I'm still doubtful, but would be delighted to be wrong in this case.