19 replies to this topic

[knickerbrook]

Excellent suggestion Bob Riebe - lets discuss the Classic TT! 

 

I can sense (hopefully) a lively debate in the offing - especially from the link roger9650 posted on the "So Very Sad" thread.

http://www.ttwebsite...d.php?tid=23163

 

I went to the inaugural 2013 event and I was knocked out by it! My "thing" is very much the British singles of the sixties and it was such a thrilling experience to see them racing competitively again over the TT course. I'm afraid the Superbike class did little for me in comparison, as I found it too modern for my taste and not "pure" enough. In fact, it seems to have developed since then into modern-day racing in disguise! Also, the fact that the race-winning speeds are now pushing replicas out of reach for many, is also a concern.

 

Nevertheless, I'm going back there next year and can't wait !         

Edited by knickerbrook, 29 September 2016 - 22:00.

[ERIC63]

Good point about the replicas.In the Senior Alan Oversby finished 5th.overall(4th in class) at over 105mph and only received a bronze.

[ERIC63]

One from last year.Jan Koning on a 500 BSA.

 

[chunder27]

I think it might be worth stirring up some comment about all the cheating that went on in the Classic TT this year? Seems the same bike was often the culprit this year, again a real shame.

 

Sadly this is not even a new phenomenon in the Classic, I do recall many years ago was it Iain Duffus was thrown out from a podium at a TT with an oversize engine in Supersport?

 

And on the circuits I think Rob Mac got chucked out of an event with a bored out Ow01 motor at a meeting aswell, I think the old end of year Superbike race when you could use any bike, but his was listed as a Superbike!

 

I think at that meeting too John Reynolds used an old Kawasaki but Ben Atkins refused to have it stripped down! 

[milestone 11]

Bit late in the day, I had a thread going whilst it was happening, without visitors.

[ERIC63]

I first went to the MGP in 1973 and haven't missed a year since 1999 except for when the races were cancelled due to the foot and mouth outbreak.

The one thing that was noticeable over the years was that there seemed to be fewer and fewer people going over.I believe that the same thing was happening at the TT.Then in 2007 the 100th.anniversary of the TT was heavily promoted and the best crowds for years turned up to watch(if you believe the figures that were quoted).After that the TT became even more of the focus than it had been before and the MGP was largely ignored.

.

So the solution was do either get rid of the MGP or turn it into some sort of festival.This began with the Jurby festival,with "superstar"riders past and present doing parade laps.And the crowds flocked to it.Presumably,the organizers looked at this and saw the potential of getting the big names over to the MGP..But how to do it because they were'nt allowed to ride in the  MGP proper?

Entries at the Classic side of the MGP had been falling for a while as the age of the competitors and machines increased,so here was a way of bringing the big names over to compete.But would the big names want to ride on a machine capable of lapping at 95mph and would the new generation of TT fans who were used to 130mph laps want to watch it?Probably not.So the Classic TT came about.Big names on pseudo Classic bikes lapping at speeds that people like Mike Hailwood,Ago etc. could have only dreamed about.

But it appears to have been a success in financial terms although there seems to be a "bucket list"element about it now as most of the new generation of spectators seem to have very little interest in what's happening once they've seen Dunlop and McGuinness go past.The downside is that hardly anyone stays to watch the MGP part of the week as it's not really promoted and personally,I don't think it's got long left,especially if outside promoters take over as seems likely.

From a personal point of view I preferred it how it used to be,but I've reached "that age".The sad thing was watching the Lightweight and Junior MGP from Kate's Cottage on the Wednesday,and there were no spectators there apart from me and the wife.

This was Glenlough campsite on the Saturday morning,the day after the last race.It wasn't much busier the day before.

 

[timbo]

With regards to Knickerbrook's post, I was watching a documentary today about the making of 6 lightweight Jaguar E-type sports cars, which were to be made back in the day, but never happened, so Jaguar decided to build 6 cars in today's era to complete how it should have been.

They are exact replica's of the original E-types, but built with modern metals etc, at a cost of around 1.5 million pounds each.

When Lord March was asked if they would be accepted to run at Goodwood, he gave a very firm " No. They are not historic cars with a racing history, they are modern day replica's"

 

In historic motorcycle racing, are we going to get to the stage where we attend an historic motorcycle race meeting, and find that none of the actual bikes racing, despite looking an sounding historic, were actually built back in the day?  That day might be, while still some time away, closer than you think.

 

This is just my rant. I do wonder though, if we had an historic race meeting for bikes with an actual historic racing history, how many bikes would we actually have. Perhaps we need replica's to actually have historic bike racing, and festivals like the Classic TT.

Edited by timbo, 01 October 2016 - 09:43.

[tonyed]

It can be difficult with 'historic' racing whether it be 'classics', 'vintage' or what have you.

 

Racing machines we never built for longevity in mind as this usually costs weight and added weight is a no no in racing so inevitably as original spare parts dry up it is replicas or nowt. Same with whole machines.

 

However over the years the emphasis on machine types racing has changed, not always for the better but has helped to keep grids full.   

 

Back in the day the 350 class would see the occasional K4 Honda (very occasional) as grids were almost entirely Yamaha. Now very (well almost) 350 classic is a K4 but who can afford to pit an original 7R or Aermacchi in this 4 stroke dominated class.

 

The 1000cc (1200cc) Suzuki XR69 replicas, very scarce back in the day, but now common as muck (if not cheap as chips).

 

So to continue any form of historic racing modern replicas are a must.  

[knickerbrook]

I agree with Tony – replicas cannot be avoided with classic motorcycle racing (as opposed to cars) due to fatigue of frame and engine castings, if nothing else. I’d like to see two distinct groups within both Senior and Junior races. For example, one class for singles with standard bore/stroke and number of valves, and the other being a free-for-all for the “trick” singles and multis.

 

As a spectator, the interest went out of the window for me (both short-circuit and TT) when the road-derived machines began to dominate. Therefore, the only meetings I attend these days are classic events (except Aberdare Park which is local to me, where even there, the almost identical machines going round and round, with their brightly-clad riders unrecognisable in their “whiz-bang” patterned helmets, bores the hell out of me!).

 

As fast and furious modern-day racing is – it’s just not my cup of tea. (An old fart looking back with rose-tinted specs perhaps!).      

[ERIC63]

That's why I put the picture up of the BSA Barry.I could have posted one of a 4 valve Norton that as far as I know ,never existed in the day..As a spectacle,the Classic TT is good.As an alleged recreation of days gone by(as the powers that be like to market it,)it's total balls.Not enough old bikes out there anymore,not enough old riders anymore.It's all about bums on seats,star names and of course profit.

But the dilemma is that you've got either old unreliable bikes that nobody wants to see or ride or modern "replicas" that bear no resemblance technichally or sometimes visually to the original but fit the bill and younger people want to be associated with.Which way do you go?

P.S. Best meeting of the year is Aberdare.

Edited by ERIC63, 01 October 2016 - 17:28.

[knickerbrook]

P.S. Best meeting of the year is Aberdare.

 

 See you there next year then Eric! (Unless it clashes with the Mallory Bonanza again   !).

 

Best years for me when a spectator there, were when it used to be a round of the old Kennings Classic Bike Championship (Heath, Swallow, Pither, Newby, Cutts, etc - and no silencers then either !).  

[ERIC63]

If I remember rightly,they used to run a Kennings round at Aintree.I'll see if I can find the programme.

Just waiting for next years Aberdare date to be confirmed.Last time there, we stayed at Cwmbach.I don't think my liver has recovered yet,after a night out with the locals.Great meeting,great weekend. 

[greg1953]

I love the classic scene and have no issue with "new" replicas except for the supposed XR69s with a GSXR oil cooled engine, you might as well run a full '80s gixxer, this is just so wrong and should not be allowed.

Greg 

[TZ350H]

When the classic tt was shown recently on itv4 I had to chuckle to myself when james witham (I think it was) said that the current classic tt bikes, although replicas, looked and sounded just the same as the originals.  No James they do not - the original sounds were way better.  No silencers then - just pure gorgeous sound.   It didnt matter whether the bikes were singles, twins or multis, 2 strokes or 4, they sounded really gorgeous.  I remember as a boy listening to Ralph Bryans warming up the 297 Honda 6 prior to practice for the 1967 Ulster Grand Prix from a distance of several miles away and I swear I still get goosebumps thinking of that sound.  Big fat ugly silencers just destroy the fun of racing for me.  As well as killing the sound they kill the impression of speed.  Rant over.

[vinnyvanveen]

My issue with the big bore XR69's is that there's just no need for them.GS1000 motors aren't rare.The only reasons the GSXR and FJ motors are used is for a cost saving and to make developing a quick bike easier.When did racing,at this level, become easy and cheap? Correct replicas with the correct engine would still be a helluva sight..and don't let anyone(especially those with "modern") tell you different.

 

I've actually worded it incorrectly..they aren't replicas..they're facsimiles.

[cregnybaa]

actually there were 12 lightweight E types all alloy produced in the early sixties, they intended to build 18 but never did. so all these years later  they decided build these six new ones.

[Jim77]

When the classic tt was shown recently on itv4 I had to chuckle to myself when james witham (I think it was) said that the current classic tt bikes, although replicas, looked and sounded just the same as the originals.  No James they do not - the original sounds were way better.  No silencers then - just pure gorgeous sound.   It didnt matter whether the bikes were singles, twins or multis, 2 strokes or 4, they sounded really gorgeous.  I remember as a boy listening to Ralph Bryans warming up the 297 Honda 6 prior to practice for the 1967 Ulster Grand Prix from a distance of several miles away and I swear I still get goosebumps thinking of that sound.  Big fat ugly silencers just destroy the fun of racing for me.  As well as killing the sound they kill the impression of speed.  Rant over.

Thought I should reply to message about sounds but was diverted by a surprise message which popped up asking if I knew someone at BRC meetings in the 60's (as it happens I did).

Getting back to your message when I visited the Isle of Man in the 60's remember team in white overalls standing around bike which was being revved up and down always remembered that sound, what made me remember (apart from sound) was the sudden stop when they ceased revving thinking to myself it was due to the multi cylinder having small flywheels? I think there were 4 exhausts. I'm finding my memory is getting a bit vague because I thought my visit was 1968 but don't think the Honda team were there than, perhaps another team or in fact it was 1967.

The only reason I said 67 was because they were giving out free 67 guides so assume it was 68, anyway enough of this rambling.

[k4racer]

I apologise if I wander off topic here but I feel the need to make a few observations which will most likely be so jumbled that nobody will make head or tail of. Firstly on the reference to 'road derived machines'  We are all seniors on here so hands up all who could not afford a manx or g50 or 7r etc back in the day.  As I thought, a good half of us filed or hacksawed bits off our dommies or triumphs and went racing on them.. In fact nearly all the 60s grids were made up of 'road derived machines' even the illustrious manx was a development of a road bike. What about gus Kuhn, dunstall, dresda, monard, dow, the list goes on. I get quite angry when folk look down their noses at 'road derived machines' without them the grids would have been very small with just a few rich folk or works riders with their 'pukka' racers.  This leads me on to my second grizzle. When I returned to racing in the 90s it was with a k4 Honda and the classic club, I may just have well joined a leper colony. Yes the k4s are 'road derived machines' and we were exiled to our own race and tended to huddle together in the paddock and really got the impression our entry fees were the only reason we were tolerated. This in spite of the fact that by and large the class consisted of very well turned out, good looking and genuine classic bikes without extra valves at odd angles and components newly made with exotic materials and no replicas apart from a few silly aftermarket frames. As for the argument from the replica snobs that the original bikes are to valuable to race hands up again who can afford a replica manx or paton or mv.

On the subject of the iom. the manx was never a classic meeting back in the day. It was the same as the tt but for amateur riders and called the clubmans tt. Over the years it seemed to become a more of a classic event but as bikes and riders become thinner on the ground someone decided to include classes for modern stuff (all road derived) that was past its sell by date and piloted by the pro riders from the tt. Nothing wrong with the basic idea but I feel the class should be 'post classic' and tt riders should not be allowed to compete in what should still be a clubmans event. I will shut up now as that is far too many spelling mistakes for one post.

[k4racer]

Thought I should reply to message about sounds but was diverted by a surprise message which popped up asking if I knew someone at BRC meetings in the 60's (as it happens I did).

Getting back to your message when I visited the Isle of Man in the 60's remember team in white overalls standing around bike which was being revved up and down always remembered that sound, what made me remember (apart from sound) was the sudden stop when they ceased revving thinking to myself it was due to the multi cylinder having small flywheels? I think there were 4 exhausts. I'm finding my memory is getting a bit vague because I thought my visit was 1968 but don't think the Honda team were there than, perhaps another team or in fact it was 1967.

The only reason I said 67 was because they were giving out free 67 guides so assume it was 68, anyway enough of this rambling.

as you rightly say the Hondas were at the 67 races but not the 68. the 4stroke multis in 68 were the mv and the benelli. As regards the sounds I couldn't agree more, the unsilenced exhausts were music to the ears of anyone with a passion for engines. I once did some work on noise problems and the guy I was with said that the definition of noise pollution was the sound of someone enjoying themselves that could be heard by someone who wasn't.. Unfortunately our once great country is now run by greedy incompetent politicians and bankers and the ministry of nosey parkers and dogooders.

[knickerbrook]

 In fact nearly all the 60s grids were made up of 'road derived machines' even the illustrious manx was a development of a road bike. What about gus Kuhn, dunstall, dresda, monard, dow, the list goes on. I get quite angry when folk look down their noses at 'road derived machines' without them the grids would have been very small with just a few rich folk or works riders with their 'pukka' racers.

 

You make some very valid points here Martin, especially regarding the Tritons, Domiracers, etc. that made up a lot of grids back in the day. Road-derived those certainly were! (Humble Pie for me there !). Perhaps the monotony that some of us complain about in today’s scene, owes more to the fact that all the bikes seem to look and sound the same, whereas in the sixties and seventies there was some variety both in the machines (pukka racers in the mix) and in the classes (125’s, 250’s, 350’s, 500’s, 1000’s) which we don’t have today except in classic racing.

 

I guess in thirty years time, when electric bikes (heaven forbid!) might be all the rage, the fans of today will lament the passing of the current machinery, just as much as the likes of me bang on about the seventies !