4068 replies to this topic

[Requiem84]

1) It won't be too expensive. You could set whatever regulations or limitations you wish on engine configuraton. Keep the regs exactly as they are today, but rather than a fuel flow limit set a power cap, even at 900bhp.
2) I agree, but that would depend on how open the regulations are.
3) Yes, the performance difference would be seen on Sunday. Assuming 200kg of fuel is required to run a race with 1500bhp and car 'A' is 10% more efficient than car 'B', then car 'A' will start the race 20kg lighter, which is about 0.8 seconds per lap faster. As fuel is burnt and weight decreases, the difference in lap time will also reduce.

Basically the only differentiator then is efficiency?

We wont see any laptime improvements in Q or sexy HP increase numbers I suppose.

I i doubt whether the manufactures consider this interesting enough to differentiate their product.

[V8 Fireworks]

I i doubt whether the manufactures consider this interesting enough to differentiate their product.

 

The whole point is that the view of manufacturers doesn't matter and F1 should not be beholden to car manufacturers. 

 

Manufacturers are prone to quitting a series and leaving it to wither -- see LMP, Super Touring, WRC.  You cannot rely on manufacturers for anything...  You need independent racers, who are there to race. The likes of M-Sport who race on, even without real sponsorship from Ford, for example... whilst VW could not care less about the health of WRC when they quit, nor Porsche care about the health of WEC.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 02 November 2017 - 20:00.

[ArrowsLivery]

The whole point is that the view of manufacturers doesn't matter and F1 should not be beholden to car manufacturers.

Manufacturers are prone to quitting a series and leaving it to wither -- see LMP, Super Touring, WRC. You cannot rely on manufacturers for anything... You need independent racers, who are there to race. The likes of M-Sport who race on, even without real sponsorship from Ford, for example... whilst VW could not care less about the health of WRC when they quit, nor Porsche care about the health of WEC.

Privateers are prone to leaving as well, in fact the last 3 who tried to enter failed miserably. They don’t pump any money into the sport unlike Ferrari and Mercedes either.

[KnucklesAgain]

No, I am making a point that why should the others be free and tyres be controlled.    Apparently, Mercedes-Benz should have the right to demonstrate they are better than all the other power unit designers, well shouldn't Bridgestone have the right to demonstrate they are better than all the other tyre designers -- even if, like the power units, the influence of the tyres can completely override the efforts of the constructor and driver, and like the power units, the tyre suppliers may refuse to supply certain constructors for political reasons!?

 

I see. It seems obvious to me that Mercedes-Benz should have the right to demonstrate they are better than all the other power unit designers, because they are an entrant in the championship and Bridgestone is not. And for better or worse, the engine is commonly considered a part of the car, but tyres are not and are considers a supplier item. Mosts people understand that it is easy to put other tyres on a car and difficult to change the engine to a different one.

[Requiem84]

The whole point is that the view of manufacturers doesn't matter and F1 should not be beholden to car manufacturers.

Manufacturers are prone to quitting a series and leaving it to wither -- see LMP, Super Touring, WRC. You cannot rely on manufacturers for anything... You need independent racers, who are there to race. The likes of M-Sport who race on, even without real sponsorship from Ford, for example... whilst VW could not care less about the health of WRC when they quit, nor Porsche care about the health of WEC.

We need a nice mix of privateers and mf'ers. Without mf'ers F1 loses a huggeeee cash injection, glamour and prestige.

You think people would pay to see a stefan GP lola car race a minardi hart in Monaco?

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

You keep saying that, but on a 500 kg car a 50 kg weight increase is only 10%. If you look at power to weight of the power unit hybrids look bad but if you remember it had to be attached to a freaking car then suddenly it’s 10% more weight for about 15% more power and double the fuel efficiency so you ha e to carry less fuel. It’s all wins, unless you mandated a max weight of 400 kg you wouldn’t drop hybrids because they are just better.

A fact neatly proven by the fact the current cars weigh less than 750 kg and are the fastest we’ve ever had...

It seems you refuse to acknowlege that NA engines can reach 40% today and that the ICE from the F1 PUs is at 45% without the MGUH support.
Maybe redo your calculations with these numbers and rethink your conclusions?

[ArrowsLivery]

It seems you refuse to acknowlege that NA engines can reach 40% today and that the ICE from the F1 PUs is at 45% without the MGUH support.
Maybe redo your calculations with these numbers and rethink your conclusions?

Some 1L road car engine getting 40% efficiency does not mean that your favored screaming V10 will be getting anywhere near that. They were below 30% 12 years ago, I don’t see an increase of over 1/3 in ten years.

[thegforcemaybewithyou]

That's true, a 20k rpm 3l V10 won't reach the 40% barrier. Now if you use a 4.5l engine revving to 13k...

[OO7]

Basically the only differentiator then is efficiency?

We wont see any laptime improvements in Q or sexy HP increase numbers I suppose.

I i doubt whether the manufactures consider this interesting enough to differentiate their product.

Yes, efficiency would be the only differentiator.  A team can choose to use less fuel for the race (that is something that happens today as part of a teams race strategy), but it would mean less average power over a race distance.

 

Laptime improvements in Q may come from increased engine modes, but these would be slight and nowhere near the 1 - 2 second increases we see today.

 

Perhaps.

Edited by OO7, 02 November 2017 - 22:03.

[Fatgadget]

The whole point is that the view of manufacturers doesn't matter and F1 should not be beholden to car manufacturers. 

 

Manufacturers are prone to quitting a series and leaving it to wither -- see LMP, Super Touring, WRC.  You cannot rely on manufacturers for anything...  You need independent racers, who are there to race. The likes of M-Sport who race on, even without real sponsorship from Ford, for example... whilst VW could not care less about the health of WRC when they quit, nor Porsche care about the health of WEC.

This is a nonsense argument. I give you Ferrari/Fiat lol!

[Timstr11]

The whole point is that the view of manufacturers doesn't matter and F1 should not be beholden to car manufacturers.

Manufacturers are prone to quitting a series and leaving it to wither -- see LMP, Super Touring, WRC. You cannot rely on manufacturers for anything... You need independent racers, who are there to race. The likes of M-Sport who race on, even without real sponsorship from Ford, for example... whilst VW could not care less about the health of WRC when they quit, nor Porsche care about the health of WEC.

Manufacturers leaving is a false narrative that's repeated over and over again.

Privateers and manufacturers/large corporations leave, but when manufacturers/large corporate owners leave they leave behind very attractive well equipped operations that easily change hands.

BAT to Honda to Mercedes
Jaguar to Red bull
Toyota providing wind tunnel services to McLaren and Force India.
BMW to Sauber.

Privateers just disappear altogether.

Edited by Timstr11, 02 November 2017 - 21:21.

[Fatgadget]

We need a nice mix of privateers and mf'ers. Without mf'ers F1 loses a huggeeee cash injection, glamour and prestige.

You think people would pay to see a stefan GP lola car race a minardi hart in Monaco?

Precisely. Manufactures have huge clout. Every corner of the globe knows pretty much who Honda and Ferrari and Mercedes and Renault are. Less so Cosworth  Illmor Judd Zytec etc...FIA know this too.

[V8 Fireworks]

Precisely. Manufactures have huge clout. Every corner of the globe knows pretty much who Honda and Ferrari and Mercedes and Renault are. Less so Cosworth  Illmor Judd Zytec etc...FIA know this too.

 

The strong crowds at Panoz-Cosworth races says otherwise, spectators want a good show and value for money. 

 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 02 November 2017 - 21:35.

[V8 Fireworks]

This is a nonsense argument. I give you Ferrari/Fiat lol!

 

The same Ferrari who quit Le Mans, and the same Fiat parent of Alfa Romeo who quit DTM, BTCC and ETCC?

 

 

Whereas independents like Team Dynamics and WSR have raced hondas and bmws on an ongoing basis, until such a time honda and bmw were willing to return with works support. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 02 November 2017 - 21:57.

[V8 Fireworks]

Indycar sounds like something for you?

 

I miss the V8 Cosworths and the sleek Panoz cars, so it makes me sad.    The 2018 aero is a vast improvement, finally good looking Indycars. 

[V8 Fireworks]

You think people would pay to see a stefan GP lola car race a minardi hart in Monaco?

 

Yes. 

[Requiem84]

The strong crowds at Panoz-Cosworth races says otherwise, spectators want a good show and value for money.

https://www.youtube....h?v=UjJ1ycfilZQ

But how many viewers worlwide does Indycar have vs F1?

It just lacks sexyness. All a bit bland and.. too even?

[V8 Fireworks]

It just lacks sexyness. All a bit bland and.. too even?

 

  That it's even and nearly anyone can win? Yeah, that's not the problem.

 

The problem is more that it is US centric and centred around one big race. 

 

I think racing at 230mph average speed is crazy, but fans seem to love it!

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 02 November 2017 - 22:21.

[Risil]

This thread has made it beyond 4000 posts, and things have moved on a little since October 2016. 

New thread here!