Jump to content


Photo

Almost Moves - Sportscar World Championship/Le Mans


  • Please log in to reply
44 replies to this topic

#1 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 22 October 2016 - 16:59

Similar to the very popular Formula One almost-moves I would like to open that thread about almost-moves imn sportscar championship Racing and Le Mans.

 

For example: Alonso was near to race for Porsche in Le Mans in 2015.



Advertisement

#2 Charlieman

Charlieman
  • Member

  • 2,373 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 22 October 2016 - 18:23

Almost none.

 

When Formula One captured popular imagination of motor sport, it was assumed that every driver had an F1 ambition. Or that motor sport drivers were rich play boys or girls.

 

Formula Ford racers who had worked their way up never imagined that they'd be payed to race fake saloon cars in German national events. Or that there would be a world championship for silhouette saloon cars. They'd do something else -- anything else -- instead.

 

Derek Bell didn't plan his career. Sadly, we don't know how fast he might have been on open wheels.

 

Nobody planned or could afford to plan. Racing drivers worked for money and exposure. I always regarded Dieter Quester as a saloon car driver -- until I learned that he raced single seaters and has an F1 start. If he'd had that race position in 2016, Dieter would have scored F1 championship points and would be a national hero.

 

Dieter did not plan; he was born two decades too early for F1 heroism. He is only 77 years old so I am not going to make jokes about a bloke as acute as him.



#3 john winfield

john winfield
  • Member

  • 4,949 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 22 October 2016 - 22:24

Derek Bell didn't plan his career. Sadly, we don't know how fast he might have been on open wheels.

 

Nobody planned or could afford to plan. Racing drivers worked for money and exposure. I always regarded Dieter Quester as a saloon car driver -- until I learned that he raced single seaters and has an F1 start. If he'd had that race position in 2016, Dieter would have scored F1 championship points and would be a national hero.

 

Dieter did not plan; he was born two decades too early for F1 heroism. He is only 77 years old so I am not going to make jokes about a bloke as acute as him.

OT......Charlie, Derek Bell was successful in Formula 3, and pretty quick in Formula 2 as well, usually in Brabhams I think, winning at Montjuich in 1970 for example. In Formula 1 - Surtees, Tecno etc - he was solid rather than spectacularly quick.

 

My only memories of Dieter Quester in single seaters are from 1970 as well. He was very quick in the F2 BMW, a team mate I think of Jacky Ickx and Jo Siffert.


Edited by john winfield, 22 October 2016 - 22:24.


#4 Charlieman

Charlieman
  • Member

  • 2,373 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 22 October 2016 - 23:06

Thanks, John. It annoys me that Derek Bell looks so good for a man of his age -- good for Derek.

 

Dieter Quester had a long career. I have learned a bit and I want know more from people who ran his single seaters.



#5 doc knutsen

doc knutsen
  • Member

  • 712 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 23 October 2016 - 10:29

OT......Charlie, Derek Bell was successful in Formula 3, and pretty quick in Formula 2 as well, usually in Brabhams I think, winning at Montjuich in 1970 for example. In Formula 1 - Surtees, Tecno etc - he was solid rather than spectacularly quick.

 

My only memories of Dieter Quester in single seaters are from 1970 as well. He was very quick in the F2 BMW, a team mate I think of Jacky Ickx and Jo Siffert.

Derek Bell also had an F2 outing for Ferrari, no? I was at the F2 Zandvoort race in 1968 and seem to remember Derek in thet race...but I was so upset about the Regazzoni/Lambert accident that my memory may be playing tricks (again :p ) on me...



#6 nexfast

nexfast
  • Member

  • 825 posts
  • Joined: August 12

Posted 23 October 2016 - 12:01

Your memory is good, Derek Bell was the fastest qualifier and won the first heat in a Dino 166. In the race a gear linkage problem forced a pit stop and he was 14th.

 

Picture here:

 

http://picclick.co.u...1719854318.html



#7 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:29

I've read that Ricardo Rodriguez wanted to enter Le Mans in 1956 but was not allowed because of his age (14!). Any details about car and so on?

The same with 1958 where he should drive the Ferrari with his brother Pedro which was driven by Jean Behra.


Edited by HistoryFan, 24 October 2016 - 06:34.


#8 bill p

bill p
  • Member

  • 697 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 24 October 2016 - 08:08

I've read that Ricardo Rodriguez wanted to enter Le Mans in 1956 but was not allowed because of his age (14!). Any details about car and so on?
The same with 1958 where he should drive the Ferrari with his brother Pedro which was driven by Jean Behra.


You will find information on Google..........

See, http://www.grandprix...drv-rodric.html

#9 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 24 October 2016 - 08:51

No answer to my question about 1956



#10 bill p

bill p
  • Member

  • 697 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 24 October 2016 - 09:00

No answer to my question about 1956


You must be patient, I couldn't find anything, maybe somebody else will.......

The link gives info on other entries and successes

#11 sabrejet

sabrejet
  • Member

  • 750 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 24 October 2016 - 11:05

Be nice to think we'd get a response a bit more in-depth than that thrown up- by an idle moment Googling... :)



#12 john winfield

john winfield
  • Member

  • 4,949 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 24 October 2016 - 11:08

Your memory is good, Derek Bell was the fastest qualifier and won the first heat in a Dino 166. In the race a gear linkage problem forced a pit stop and he was 14th.

 

Picture here:

 

http://picclick.co.u...1719854318.html

 

Doc, nexfast, yes, you're quite right, and he drove F2 for Ferrari in 1969 too. I saw him at Thruxton in a three car team with Tino Brambilla and Clay Regazzoni.

 

I realise that Ferrari were perhaps over-reaching themselves - and 1969 wasn't a great year for them - but how wonderful to see a works F2 outfit, the works prototypes and the grand prix cars!


Edited by john winfield, 24 October 2016 - 11:14.


#13 bill p

bill p
  • Member

  • 697 posts
  • Joined: December 08

Posted 24 October 2016 - 15:14

Be nice to think we'd get a response a bit more in-depth than that thrown up- by an idle moment Googling... :)

Idle moments, I wish I had some!

I'm trying to encourage some posters to try Google etc before asking questions that can be answered by spending some time on the Internet.....

Edited by bill p, 24 October 2016 - 16:11.


#14 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 1,868 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 24 October 2016 - 15:34

I've read that Ricardo Rodriguez wanted to enter Le Mans in 1956 but was not allowed because of his age (14!). Any details about car and so on?

The same with 1958 where he should drive the Ferrari with his brother Pedro which was driven by Jean Behra.

According to NART a concise history by Terry O'Neil, The first mention of Ricardo Rodriguez applying for an entry at Le Mans is 1958. He was refused on age grounds 16. The entry by Chinetti in 1957 was one car for Arents/de Vroom and this appears to be his first as an entrant at Le Mans, although he had appeared and won several times as a driver. From this I conclude Ricardo did not apply for an entry in 1956, unless it was with someone other than Chinetti. Most reliable sources list 1958 as his first Le Mans entry application. At 14 he would be pretty inexperienced for Le Mans.


Edited by D28, 24 October 2016 - 15:35.


#15 nexfast

nexfast
  • Member

  • 825 posts
  • Joined: August 12

Posted 24 October 2016 - 18:01

According to NART a concise history by Terry O'Neil, The first mention of Ricardo Rodriguez applying for an entry at Le Mans is 1958. He was refused on age grounds 16. The entry by Chinetti in 1957 was one car for Arents/de Vroom and this appears to be his first as an entrant at Le Mans, although he had appeared and won several times as a driver. From this I conclude Ricardo did not apply for an entry in 1956, unless it was with someone other than Chinetti. Most reliable sources list 1958 as his first Le Mans entry application. At 14 he would be pretty inexperienced for Le Mans.

 

The huge and extremely detailed biography of the Rodriguez Brothers by Carlos Jalife makes no mention whatsoever of a possible entry for Ricardo in 1956. As a matter of fact, in 1956 Ricardo was still riding motorcycles in the Mexican championship and would enter his first serious car competitions only in 1957.

The confusion might come from the possibility of Pedro driving in the 1955 Carrera Panamericana (at age 14!) in a Porsche 356 his father had bought. However, he was not entered since the Rodriguez family was told the event was under international rules and fourteen-year old boys were not allowed.


Edited by nexfast, 24 October 2016 - 18:02.


#16 D28

D28
  • Member

  • 1,868 posts
  • Joined: April 14

Posted 24 October 2016 - 19:51

I agree. Jo Ramirez who was in a position to know, makes no mention of such an early entry in his memoirs. About that time the brothers were first becoming known is US west coast events. The first races outside Mexico were here and this brought the boys to the attention of Luigi Chinetti. I did see some reference to a 1956 entry on the net, but everything there is not correct.



#17 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 14 January 2017 - 19:11

Franchitti said he had a Porsche LMP1 drive for 2015, but then he had his career ending crash.

Montoya also tested for Porsche in 2015.



#18 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 08 June 2017 - 10:31

Does anyone remember any talks about Barrichello driving in Le Mans before his debut in 2017?



#19 Rob Miller

Rob Miller
  • Member

  • 357 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 08 June 2017 - 18:32

 

The same with 1958 where he should drive the Ferrari with his brother Pedro which was driven by Jean Behra.

 

It was Jean's brother José Behra. Jean finished third with Hans Herrmann in a Porsche 718 RSK.



Advertisement

#20 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 17 August 2017 - 07:44

In 1982 Jackie Stewart wanted to return to racing and competing with his son Paul in the 24h Le Mans race some years later. But that never happened unfortunately



#21 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 21 August 2017 - 11:28

Prost in 1988: Was interested in driving for Peugeot or Mercedes in sports cars in 1989



#22 TJJohansen

TJJohansen
  • Member

  • 74 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 25 August 2017 - 11:57

Idle moments, I wish I had some!

I'm trying to encourage some posters to try Google etc before asking questions that can be answered by spending some time on the Internet.....

 

Isn't that counter- productive on a forum? I frequent a couple of aviation forums, and very often I get answers there which not necessarily are found in Google searches. Some times from authors who have written about the subject or from people who knew of the events/ people I've asked about. That brings another dimension to my quest, instead of trawling through sometimes generic answers very often cut/ pasted across numerous websites.

 

I would rather encourage people to use the forum in lieu of a Google search. You might get a reply from someone who hasn't bothered to rummage through 2000 pages on a forum to see if the subject has been discussed before. Even better, maybe new info has been learned since then. Not to mention, if we spend more time googling, what do we need the forum for?

 

T J



#23 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,572 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 27 August 2017 - 17:31

On a related note.  We always associate Ecurie Ecosse with Jaguars (well at least I do) but at one stage, possibly 1954-55, they were considering switching to Aston Martins.



#24 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 04 September 2017 - 14:50

Keke Rosberg and Nigel Mansell were in talks with Peugeot for their sports car involvement. Especially Rosberg was very likely to drive for them. Any details?

 

Paolo Barilla also was in negotations with Peugeot and Porsche


Edited by HistoryFan, 04 September 2017 - 14:51.


#25 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 24,075 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 04 September 2017 - 15:10

Rosberg did drive for Peugeot:

http://www.racingspo...-SF.html?page=2

#26 TennisUK

TennisUK
  • Member

  • 15,824 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 04 September 2017 - 21:08

While I knew he drove for Peugeot I had no idea he raced Group C in DRM in to the mid 80s.

#27 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 27 October 2017 - 21:31

Dieter Stappert wanted Lauda to race in Le Mans for him in 1981.



#28 SamoanAttorney

SamoanAttorney
  • Member

  • 317 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 29 October 2017 - 13:49

While I knew he drove for Peugeot I had no idea he raced Group C in DRM in to the mid 80s.

Keke also ran in the 1989 Spa 24 Hours in a Ferrari 500 Mondial entered by Jean-Pierre van Rossem, the Moneytron man. Rosberg was partnered behind the wheel by Bertrand Gachot and Harald Huysman, they were unclassified at the finish.



#29 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 27 November 2017 - 14:10

There were talks about a McLaren-Mercedes Group C car in 1989

 

And Berger had an offer to drive for Sauber-Mercedes in 1989



#30 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 9,572 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 28 November 2017 - 20:47

In 1982 Jackie Stewart wanted to return to racing and competing with his son Paul in the 24h Le Mans race some years later. But that never happened unfortunately

I have just found this post.  I very much doubt it was ever a serious plan.  When Jackie Stewart retired he promised his wife, Helen, he would never drive a racing car in anger again - even at the Goodwood FoS he has not made a timed run.  To further clarify their relationship: when he planned to retire, although he told Ken Tyrrell he did not tell Helen to spare her the agony of counting down the races.



#31 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 29 November 2017 - 15:53

he tested a lot of F1 cars after his retirement for broadcasters.



#32 TennisUK

TennisUK
  • Member

  • 15,824 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 29 November 2017 - 19:12

he tested a lot of F1 cars after his retirement for broadcasters.

And a Penske Indycar IIRC. They are quite interesting to watch. One thing I recall is that on most of them he spends quite a bit of time talking about driver comfort and general user friendliness, different generations I guess!



#33 garoidb

garoidb
  • Member

  • 7,859 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 29 November 2017 - 20:54

And a Penske Indycar IIRC. They are quite interesting to watch. One thing I recall is that on most of them he spends quite a bit of time talking about driver comfort and general user friendliness, different generations I guess!

 

... and, of course, the Silk Cut Jaguar XJR9 (link).



#34 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 20 January 2018 - 13:00

Häkkinen was offered a drive at McLaren for Le Mans in the 90s.



#35 Glengavel

Glengavel
  • Member

  • 1,188 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 22 January 2018 - 07:29

I have just found this post.  I very much doubt it was ever a serious plan.  When Jackie Stewart retired he promised his wife, Helen, he would never drive a racing car in anger again - even at the Goodwood FoS he has not made a timed run.  To further clarify their relationship: when he planned to retire, although he told Ken Tyrrell he did not tell Helen to spare her the agony of counting down the races.

 

Jackie wasn't a great fan of Le Mans either, from what I gather.

 

 

On a related note.  We always associate Ecurie Ecosse with Jaguars (well at least I do) but at one stage, possibly 1954-55, they were considering switching to Aston Martins.

 

Was this when they were first thinking of running a sports car team? Their first appearance wasn't until 1956.

 

(Sorry, just realised this thread is a year old!)



#36 WonderWoman61

WonderWoman61
  • Member

  • 435 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 22 July 2022 - 20:13

Roland Ratzenberger was scheduled to share the #1 Toyota in the 1994 Le Mans 24 Hours with Mauro Martini and Jeff Krosnoff. Of course, Imola happened, Eddie Irvine took his place.

#37 GMiranda

GMiranda
  • Member

  • 806 posts
  • Joined: April 13

Posted 22 August 2022 - 17:57

Roland Ratzenberger was scheduled to share the #1 Toyota in the 1994 Le Mans 24 Hours with Mauro Martini and Jeff Krosnoff. Of course, Imola happened, Eddie Irvine took his place.

I believe Roland Ratzenberger would have a bright future in Sport-Prototypes on both sides of the Atlantic or even in CART because he wouldn't have money to stay in F1 for the entire season. Ironically, he tested for Dick Simon Racing, just like Jeff Krosnoff, who also died in a freak accident in 1996.



#38 TennisUK

TennisUK
  • Member

  • 15,824 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 23 August 2022 - 09:52

The team carried his name on the car as a fourth driver.

#39 GMiranda

GMiranda
  • Member

  • 806 posts
  • Joined: April 13

Posted 23 August 2022 - 11:22

The team carried his name on the car as a fourth driver.

Yes, I know, I saw some photos. Toyota also lost a driver confirmed for Le Mans two years before Hitoshi Ogawa died in Suzuka.



Advertisement

#40 WonderWoman61

WonderWoman61
  • Member

  • 435 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 21 September 2022 - 13:18

https://www.autospor...herta/10372394/
- Since the DTM now runs to GT3 rules. Anymore doors due to be slammed in the face of Colton Herta anytime soon?

#41 WonderWoman61

WonderWoman61
  • Member

  • 435 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 27 September 2022 - 20:31

Carlos Sainz Sr. twice missed out on a chance to compete in the Le Mans 24 Hours - https://www.google.c...ed/6971265/amp/

#42 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 28 September 2022 - 13:09

the link isn't working. Can you tell me when and for what team?



#43 WonderWoman61

WonderWoman61
  • Member

  • 435 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 28 September 2022 - 13:46

the link isn't working. Can you tell me when and for what team?


Walter Brun's Porsche 962 in 1989 and the Toyota in 1998.

#44 HistoryFan

HistoryFan
  • Member

  • 7,376 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 30 September 2022 - 14:59

Thank you. Interesting. I still hope Rossi will go to Le Mans.

 

Walter Brun's team was very interesting. Really wondering how his F1 effort went so bad.



#45 WonderWoman61

WonderWoman61
  • Member

  • 435 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 30 September 2022 - 15:03

Thank you. Interesting. I still hope Rossi will go to Le Mans.
 
Walter Brun's team was very interesting. Really wondering how his F1 effort went so bad.


You're welcome.

Never say never.