74 replies to this topic

[dgarrett]

I have a Series 1 Elan 26R. It had a replacement bodyshell (in California) in 1995, but I have managed to acquire the original shell, restored it, and am currently racing the car.

However, there is apparently going to be a problem with getting the Historic Technical Passport. Like many "narrow bodied" Series 1 cars, the bodyshell was modified to take the wider wheels and tyres that came through with the Series 2. THese mods were done by the then owner (Karl Foitek) in late 1965, but the car was not raced with the wider arches till the 1966 season. Apparently, to get my HTP, I have to prove that Elans were raced with these selfsame mods in an International race pre-Dec 65 !!

I have photos of plenty of other Elans racing with exactly the same (beautifully molded) arches in 1966, but the only ones I can find in 1965 are not exactly the same. So, although I have the ORIGINAL body, as modified in period, it appears my HTP is going to be very difficult.....

Can anybody help? I have amassed a vast collection of period 26R photos but don't know how to post them on here, but I will happily share via email. Also if you want to see what it looks like, I suppose you can look up Karl Foitek on Racing Sports Cars

Please help if you can - this is a gorgeous period car with original body, currently being raced - it would be such a shame if it can't be recognised with full papers

Thanks

David Garrett

[Rupertlt1]

Have a look here:

 

https://revslib.stan...atch=any&utf8=✓

 

Good luck!

 

Edit: here are what look like extended arches at the start of 1964:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/hr592zz0032

 

Rear arches tweaked 1963:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/ch625tv4894

 

Rouen, 1964:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/gk986ty9247

 

More 1964:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/dw991kx6744

 

Extended arches 1965:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/wh244vz1180

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 25 October 2016 - 19:21.

[elansprint72]

David,

Could you tell us the serial number of your car, please?

Any photos you have would also help a great deal.

If you want to post photos here you have (due to the Byzantine photo-software adopted by this forum) to host them via something like flickr and then link them.

[kayemod]

If you want to post photos here you have (due to the Byzantine photo-software adopted by this forum) to host them via something like flickr and then link them.

 

On posting photos on here, I tried reading that thread, big mistake, worst thing I could have done. Page after page of learned over-complicated though well meant advice. Temporarily defeated, I turned to Giraffe (Tony) for help. He gave me a few sentences, less than half a page of A4 of excellent advice, I tried it, and was successful at the first attempt. What Tony steered me through was Imageshack, but when they started charging, I tried Photobucket, which is even more straightforward, had me wondering what all the fuss was about. It's really quite simple, you don't really need to be computer literate, I don't post a lot of photos, but hardly have to think about the process, a good result every time. Try Photobucket, it's simple and free, I'm no expert, but I'll gladly help if anyone asks by PM.

[Tim Murray]

Here's David's earlier thread on his car:

Lotus Elan 26-R-22 racing history

[The Mountaineer]

I'm crossing fingers...

[dgarrett]

Thanks everyone - great to see your replies, rushing out now, will answer properly this afternoon!

[dgarrett]

http://s44.photobuck...gero0h.jpg.html

Well, I'm trying out kayemod's recommendation of posting photos via Photobucket - I'm hoping that this MIGHT show you all a photo of my car, 26-R-22, on the stand at the Zurich Racing Car Show in November 1967

If it works, I'll post a couple more pictures. If it doesn't - back to the drawing board!

[dgarrett]

Well, I think it works - can anybody see it? The car represented the 26R model at the Zurich show, and you can see that the bodyshell is quite unique, with tastefully sculpted wheel arches to take the bigger wheels and tyres, and deep headlamp recesses into a bumperless front. Also Karl cut those little cooling holes for the front discs. All these features were still there in the old bodyshell, and have been carefully retained in the restoration, so it just seems crazy that the car's HTP is causing problems! I'll post some more photos zeroing in on the detailed wheel arch problem, but in the meanwhile (getting carried away with myself now!) here are a couple more pics which hopefully you will be able to see. The first is a period shot of Karl Foitek in full flight on the Schwarzenberg-Bodele hillclimb, 21st May 1967; the second is taken in the Silverstone pitlane in May this year, my first outing in the old bodyshell.

67FoitekCrop_zpsimnzo5vn.jpg.htm

Silverstone2016_zpsuy3lnx2m.jpg.htm

[dgarrett]

http://s44.photobuck...html?sort=3&o=0

Edited by dgarrett, 26 October 2016 - 21:18.

[dgarrett]

Oops, doesn't look as if it worked so well the second time, but seem to have created the link to the Schwarzenberg photo above, so here goes with Silverstone....

http://i44.photobuck...zpsuy3lnx2m.jpg

Edited by dgarrett, 26 October 2016 - 21:16.

[Rupertlt1]

Is this the car here, German G.P. support race, Nürburgring 1964?

 

https://revslib.stan...log/pn888rr9800

 

Maybe of interest, 1964:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/wt277zr7973

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 26 October 2016 - 15:30.

[Sharman]

In 62 or 63 I was helping out John Carden with his Elan, this was a series 1 and predated the 26R, We'd put wider wheels on it and at a Silverstone meeting (National or International I can't remember which or dates) the screw in ears objected that the tyres were not covered so we went to Ian Bailey's house and enlarged the arches. Though I sez it meself it looked quite pretty and I;m fairly sure that it was,if not the first, among the first Elan with extended arches

[Rupertlt1]

Snetterton, 1964:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/mx514sy4982

 

https://revslib.stan...log/dt955pv8003

 

RGDS RLT

Edited by Rupertlt1, 26 October 2016 - 17:01.

[dgarrett]

Hi Rupert

Re the 'Ring support race, 2nd Aug '64 - no, the (red) Elan 26R with the thin stripe, starting 8th on the grid, by the looks of it, is the sister car 26-R-21,driven by Jean-Paul Humberset

Will get round to looking at your other posts shortly

Best DG

[Bloggsworth]

I'm pretty certain that Bob Curl enlarged the wheel arches on Mark & Gabriel Konig's Series 1 Elan when he was at Panshanger, so that would certainly predate the summer of '64 because by then Panshanger had closed and the Service Dept had moved to Delemare Road where I went full-time in '64. I tried to ring him but he's out at the moment.

[dgarrett]

http://s44.photobuck...html?sort=3&o=2

Hi Bloggsworth

I did notice a Konig Elan at the 'Ring 1000k in '65, and it definitely had rear arch modifications - I'll try to put in a photo link (still not very good at this!)

Is this the car? - it's difficult to tell exactly what the modification is, a side view would be amazing

Edited by dgarrett, 26 October 2016 - 23:13.

[Bloggsworth]

http://s44.photobuck...html?sort=3&o=2

Hi Bloggsworth

I did notice a Konig Elan at the 'Ring 1000k in '65, and it definitely had rear arch modifications - I'll try to put in a photo link (still not very good at this!)

Is this the car? - it's difficult to tell exactly what the modification is, a side view would be amazing

If you can prove the date of the photo I'm sure it would be of great assistance to dgarrett.

[dgarrett]

'Ring 1000k was 23rd May 65

[bradbury west]

Try finding shots of the Ian Walker Elans raced by J Stewart, or the ChequereFlag Elans. they raced with eased arches in 1964 at international level, as that will prove to be the critical thing. There used to be some wonderful Nick Loudon pictures of those Elans on TNF but they have gone. Perhaps there is one in Julian Balme's Walker book, or he might know of such shots. Try him via CLassic and Sportscar.
Roger Lund

Edit. I have just checked in the Brits at Le Mans book for the Elan there in 64, but that was a prototype, but.. the Walker Elan, slated to start at LM, was damaged at the Nurburgring shortly before, so photos from the Ring event may help, certainly classed as an International event.
Try the redoubtable Ted Walker at Ferret Photographics. He is always very helpful with his vast archives, and knows practically everyone, and may have been asked for something similar before.
Usual disclaimer
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 26 October 2016 - 21:30.

[dgarrett]

Hi Bradbury

I've got the usual shot of the IWR Elan at the 'Ring 1000k May '64, with John Whitmore (below, hopefully) - the rear arches have certainly been modified to take wider tyres, but it looks like the mod was done with a hacksaw!

[dgarrett]

Very pleased with my new-found ability to post photos (THANK YOU ROB!!), but does anybody have any suggestions as to how I might be able to make them a bit smaller??!!

[Sharman]

Hi Bradbury

I've got the usual shot of the IWR Elan at the 'Ring 1000k May '64, with John Whitmore (below, hopefully) - the rear arches have certainly been modified to take wider tyres, but it looks like the mod was done with a hacksaw!

 

 

Actually we did ours with a hacksaw  blade bound with insulating tape

[richardspringett]

Hi David

 

PM sent re very old posting on Karl Foitek and Alfa TZ...

 

Richard

[Bloggsworth]

dgarrett, I think that you need to make the bean counters understand that, before the 26R, all wheel arch mods were non-standard as there was no "Official" modification available.

[dgarrett]

dgarrett, I think that you need to make the bean counters understand that, before the 26R, all wheel arch mods were non-standard as there was no "Official" modification available.

I know, I know...... but they (and their inspectors who sign off for the HTP) have this massively narrow-focussed approach, and so my lovely original-bodied car gets the bums rush while cars clothed in modern replica shells get the boxes ticked..

Anyway, if it has to be played their way, so be it. What I need firstly is proof that the "Foitek" type of adaptation was raced in 1965 or earlier, and in this connection - did my pic of the Konig car look like the one you mentioned, and, if so, do you know of any other pics of it? From the shot I posted, although not from an ideal angle, the nature of the wheel arch mods looked quite promising for my cause..?!

Hope to hear further, and thanks for your interest and help

[dgarrett]

Is this the car here, German G.P. support race, Nürburgring 1964?

 
https://revslib.stan...log/pn888rr9800
 
Maybe of interest, 1964:
 
https://revslib.stan...log/wt277zr7973
 
RGDS RLT

Rupert, thanks for all your help with Revs site - what a wonderful website!

And the start line photo at the 'Ring is superb, with Humberset nestling there on the third row with the 26R, behind all the 904s

Here is a photo of the car in the paddock (taken by the car's present owner, who was 18 at the time!)- Humberset's race number was 20 and the man is about to apply the "0"

Thanks again for all your help

Kind regards

David

Edited by dgarrett, 28 October 2016 - 10:57.

[dgarrett]

David,
Could you tell us the serial number of your car, please?
Any photos you have would also help a great deal.
If you want to post photos here you have (due to the Byzantine photo-software adopted by this forum) to host them via something like flickr and then link them.

Hi Pete
Serial number of my car is 26-R-22
Tim Murray has kindly revived a link I posted a while back showing its racing provenance 1964-67, if you're interested.
Am currently doing some races with the car in the CSCC series, but sadly am not getting the results that Karl Foitek did!
David

[Lee Nicolle]

As a matter of interest Jay Leno has built a custom 26R. He seems to have lots of pics and documentation for these cars so he may have the pics you are after.

[bradbury west]

David, check out the Revs site under Silverstone 1964 for Elan shots from the Silverstone Intl in May then the Martini meeting in July. Certainly by the July meeting the Chequered Flag Elans looked to have developed flared/relieved rear arches and wings, rather than most people's earlier cutaways, and the fronts look cut back too. Again, in Chris Harvey's Elite, Elan, Europa book there is a shot of JYS in the Flag Elan at Mallory in May 64 showing a well flared rear wing covering the top part of the tyre, rather than cutaway. Arundell's Walker Gold Bug Elan behind it has just a lip to extend the arch.
I wonder whether there was a change in wheel/tyre size in that period. The Flag, ISTR, was a sort of development dept for Lotus and the Elan, whereas Ian Walker did his own thing. I am wondering if Ernie Unger was with Walker at that time as his recollections are always spot on, althoughnI suspect that he was with Terry Bone at that time. There was also a three part story about the Flag in Autosport in the 60s. If I get time I will check in a day or three when back to normal here.
Roger Lund

[elansprint72]

Snetterton, 1964:

 

https://revslib.stan...log/mx514sy4982

 

https://revslib.stan...log/dt955pv8003

 

RGDS RLT

2nd photo is reversed.

[elansprint72]

Try finding shots of the Ian Walker Elans raced by J Stewart, or the ChequereFlag Elans. they raced with eased arches in 1964 at international level, as that will prove to be the critical thing. There used to be some wonderful Nick Loudon pictures of those Elans on TNF but they have gone. Perhaps there is one in Julian Balme's Walker book, or he might know of such shots. Try him via CLassic and Sportscar.
Roger Lund

Edit. I have just checked in the Brits at Le Mans book for the Elan there in 64, but that was a prototype, but.. the Walker Elan, slated to start at LM, was damaged at the Nurburgring shortly before, so photos from the Ring event may help, certainly classed as an International event.
Try the redoubtable Ted Walker at Ferret Photographics. He is always very helpful with his vast archives, and knows practically everyone, and may have been asked for something similar before.
Usual disclaimer
Roger Lund

When did JYS drive an IWR car? He drove one (both?) of the 'Flag Elans.

The IWR LM  Coupe is a red herring here.

Ted owned one of the IWR Gold Bugs and may be able to source Kosher photos.

 

Personal opinion: I think that the wide-body 26/R shells were available some while before the end of "production run"  the S1 26/R.

 

What is very clear is that (having spent hours pouring over the period Homologation papers)  the regulations were very much open to interpretation then and are just as difficult to comply with now!

 

It must be seriously frustrating trying to get the sign-off for a real car when the FIA allows all sorts of look-alikes with 50+ extra bhp to compete every week-end. Good luck.

[bradbury west]

Pete, re JYS and IWR, it was getting late, obviously in the Flag car. Only trying to help. I agree totally with your last sentence. It is symptomatic of modern histeric racing, sadly.
RL

[dgarrett]

I'm crossing fingers...

Thank you, Urs - me too!

[Bloggsworth]

Bob Curl confirms that the early Elans were modified on the hoof; he did both the Chequered Flag Elans by cutting and shutting, extending the wheel arches by about 1.5 inches. He also did arches for Mark Konig, Adrian Chambers and others he can't quite remember.He is happy to write a letter, "To whom it may concern" confirming the ad hoc nature of early modifications, I'll put dgarrett in touch.

[dgarrett]

Bob Curl confirms that the early Elans were modified on the hoof; he did both the Chequered Flag Elans by cutting and shutting, extending the wheel arches by about 1.5 inches. He also did arches for Mark Konig, Adrian Chambers and others he can't quite remember.He is happy to write a letter, "To whom it may concern" confirming the ad hoc nature of early modifications, I'll put dgarrett in touch.

Bloggsworth, that's really appreciated,- I look forward to hearing from Bob, and would certainly very much like that sort of letter on file if he's prepared to do it. I'm also going to ring around my photo contacts to see if I can't get a side shot of the Konig car. I have also recently received a shot of the Roger Nathan car in that same race which I think will be very useful when the HTP inspector comes to call (hopefully in January). Thanks so much for your help

[Bloggsworth]

I've sent you a PM.

[elansprint72]

In "A Chequered Life" Graham Warner says that he sold both of their cars to the Konigs at the end of the '64 season: "Our cars were subsequently sold to Mark Konig, who was the sales manager at Maranello Concessionaires (and future founder of the Nomad marque), and his sister/racer Gabriel" (I thought Gabriel was his wife).

 

How many Elans did the Konigs have? That one in the photo (back up the thread) at the 'Ring is different in several respects from the last appearance of a 'Flag car at Zandvoort in August '64.Of course, it may have been modified whilst in the early ownership of the Konigs but would they really fill in three large round holes in the Kamm panel?

 

Interestingly the famous Duckhams oil advert (in Motor magazine 26th March 1966 amonst other places) featuring a Konig Elan shows that the front bumper has been infilled and the headlights now have much deeper (almost to the bumper centre-line) cut-outs with perspex covers, these are not the same shape as the Foitek cars, having a straighter top profile, like the non chinese-eye Lotus covers. Period photos show that the 'Flag cars always had standard front bumpers i.e. the type on road cars, not the later short 26/R type. The front arch flares are nothing like a 26/R but are close to the Foitek car's items. If I can sort out the technology I'll post a scan of the original here...!

 

I am in touch with Jon Fletcher, who raced the Jackie Stewart 'Flag car in the UK for many years and who owns it to this day. My plan is to go over and photograph the car and grill him on the story. Recently I think that I have possibly stumbled across where the other 'Flag car is but it is early days on that one.

 

The first 'Flag racing Elan (not a 26/R) was sold to Hong Kong some while before they got the pair of 26/Rs, I have no idea what happened to this one!

 

EDIT:

Edited by elansprint72, 02 November 2016 - 21:38.

[kayemod]

In "A Chequered Life" Graham Warner says that he sold both of their cars to the Konigs at the end of the '64 season: "Our cars were subsequently sold to Mark Konig, who was the sales manager at Maranello Concessionaires (and future founder of the Nomad marque), and his sister/racer Gabriel" (I thought Gabriel was his wife).

 

 

 

Me too, I've seen Gabriel so described in race reports, probably Motoring News, more than once, so if that's wrong it's why many like me and elansprint think she was.

[Tim Murray]

She was definitely not Mark Konig's sister.

http://forums.autosp...-gabriel-konig/

http://www.sebringsp...files/Konig.pdf

http://www.independe...1-29029454.html

[dgarrett]

In "A Chequered Life" Graham Warner says that he sold both of their cars to the Konigs at the end of the '64 season: "Our cars were subsequently sold to Mark Konig, who was the sales manager at Maranello Concessionaires (and future founder of the Nomad marque), and his sister/racer Gabriel" (I thought Gabriel was his wife).
 
How many Elans did the Konigs have? That one in the photo (back up the thread) at the 'Ring is different in several respects from the last appearance of a 'Flag car at Zandvoort in August '64.Of course, it may have been modified whilst in the early ownership of the Konigs but would they really fill in three large round holes in the Kamm panel?
 
Interestingly the famous Duckhams oil advert (in Motor magazine 26th March 1966 amonst other places) featuring a Konig Elan shows that the front bumper has been infilled and the headlights now have much deeper (almost to the bumper centre-line) cut-outs with perspex covers, these are not the same shape as the Foitek cars, having a straighter top profile, like the non chinese-eye Lotus covers. Period photos show that the 'Flag cars always had standard front bumpers i.e. the type on road cars, not the later short 26/R type. The front arch flares are nothing like a 26/R but are close to the Foitek car's items. If I can sort out the technology I'll post a scan of the original here...!
 
I am in touch with Jon Fletcher, who raced the Jackie Stewart 'Flag car in the UK for many years and who owns it to this day. My plan is to go over and photograph the car and grill him on the story. Recently I think that I have possibly stumbled across where the other 'Flag car is but it is early days on that one.
 
The first 'Flag racing Elan (not a 26/R) was sold to Hong Kong some while before they got the pair of 26/Rs, I have no idea what happened to this one!

Hi Pete have sent PM

[kayemod]

She was definitely not Mark Konig's sister.

http://forums.autosp...-gabriel-konig/

http://www.sebringsp...files/Konig.pdf

http://www.independe...1-29029454.html

 

That's a relief, I knew I could rely 100% on anything I read years ago in Motoring News.

[john wood]

Further Elan photos at the Nurburgring 1000kms 1965:

 

'Ferrari GTO: the classic experience' by Alan Lis has a double page spread on p.44-45 with a variety of cars heading away from the camera, including the Elan (no.90) of Mohr/Elteneuer (rear three quarter view). There's a copy of the book for sale on ebay at the moment and the web page for this shows the photo (third of six) with decent resolution: 

http://www.ebay.co.u...2-/151843321309

 

 

The Racing Sports Cars website has side and front three quarter photos of the Springer/von Wendt Elan (no.92) at:

http://www.racingspo...1965-05-23.html

[dgarrett]

In "A Chequered Life" Graham Warner says that he sold both of their cars to the Konigs at the end of the '64 season: "Our cars were subsequently sold to Mark Konig, who was the sales manager at Maranello Concessionaires (and future founder of the Nomad marque), and his sister/racer Gabriel" (I thought Gabriel was his wife).
 
How many Elans did the Konigs have? That one in the photo (back up the thread) at the 'Ring is different in several respects from the last appearance of a 'Flag car at Zandvoort in August '64.Of course, it may have been modified whilst in the early ownership of the Konigs but would they really fill in three large round holes in the Kamm panel?
 
Interestingly the famous Duckhams oil advert (in Motor magazine 26th March 1966 amonst other places) featuring a Konig Elan shows that the front bumper has been infilled and the headlights now have much deeper (almost to the bumper centre-line) cut-outs with perspex covers, these are not the same shape as the Foitek cars, having a straighter top profile, like the non chinese-eye Lotus covers. Period photos show that the 'Flag cars always had standard front bumpers i.e. the type on road cars, not the later short 26/R type. The front arch flares are nothing like a 26/R but are close to the Foitek car's items. If I can sort out the technology I'll post a scan of the original here...!
 
I am in touch with Jon Fletcher, who raced the Jackie Stewart 'Flag car in the UK for many years and who owns it to this day. My plan is to go over and photograph the car and grill him on the story. Recently I think that I have possibly stumbled across where the other 'Flag car is but it is early days on that one.
 
The first 'Flag racing Elan (not a 26/R) was sold to Hong Kong some while before they got the pair of 26/Rs, I have no idea what happened to this one!
 
EDIT:


What a great picture! - thanks for digging that out. Do you think that's the '65 Nurburgring car?

[dgarrett]

Further Elan photos at the Nurburgring 1000kms 1965:
 
'Ferrari GTO: the classic experience' by Alan Lis has a double page spread on p.44-45 with a variety of cars heading away from the camera, including the Elan (no.90) of Mohr/Elteneuer (rear three quarter view). There's a copy of the book for sale on ebay at the moment and the web page for this shows the photo (third of six) with decent resolution: 
http://www.ebay.co.u...2-/151843321309
 
 
The Racing Sports Cars website has side and front three quarter photos of the Springer/von Wendt Elan (no.92) at:
http://www.racingspo...1965-05-23.html

Great shot from the 'Ring. Like the Konig Elan, this one seems to have extended front arches just like mine, but looks as if they didn't have to amend too much at the back.
Karl von Wendt's car in the little RSC pic is his red Series 2, so no modifications needed there

[Andy Somerton]

Hi David

 

I dont understand why you should be having an issue with the wheel arches. I recently received the ITPs for my S1 Elan that was a race car in the sixties  and has been rebuilt with  wide arches.  The MSA inspector did tell me not to include any photographs of the car from the sixties as it had a non standard fastback and would cause issues.

 

regards

 

Andy

[David Birchall]

David, considering the above, is it possible to start your application again with a different inspector?

You seem to have had some very good leads from the forum-I would have thought there were lots of photos showing what you need.

 

I used to own/race two 26Rs--26R5 and 26-S2-18 .  I have photos of R5 when it was almost new and it looked quite narrow but it would have been built in early 1964 I think.  26-S2-18 had the full "Chinese eye", wide arch style - that car is now in the Barbour Motorsport Museum.  I am presently rebuilding an Elan with good period racing history but it was not a 26R-it has flares much like your car.

 

Good luck with it!

[dgarrett]

David, considering the above, is it possible to start your application again with a different inspector?
You seem to have had some very good leads from the forum-I would have thought there were lots of photos showing what you need.
 
I used to own/race two 26Rs--26R5 and 26-S2-18 .  I have photos of R5 when it was almost new and it looked quite narrow but it would have been built in early 1964 I think.  26-S2-18 had the full "Chinese eye", wide arch style - that car is now in the Barbour Motorsport Museum.  I am presently rebuilding an Elan with good period racing history but it was not a 26R-it has flares much like your car.
 
Good luck with it!

David

Very interesting - do I have a choice of which inspector I get? Am sending PM

[dgarrett]

Hi David
 
I dont understand why you should be having an issue with the wheel arches. I recently received the ITPs for my S1 Elan that was a race car in the sixties  and has been rebuilt with  wide arches.  The MSA inspector did tell me not to include any photographs of the car from the sixties as it had a non standard fastback and would cause issues.
 
regards
 
Andy

Am sending PM

[elansprint72]

Inspector? Who checks the checkers?

 

I've seen MSA "Scrutineers" pass things which are just plain wrong in UK classic Mini racing; when I questioned something, clearly from many years later, one said, "...do you want to see a two car grid? They all do that".