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Is Red Bull Racing's strength Adrian Newey, or something more engrained in the teams structure and operations?


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#1 RPM40

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 08:22

You often hear "Newey this, Newey that". Now don't get me wrong, Newey has been a huge factor in building up the team and is one of the all time great F1 engineers.

 

But when he stepped down you heard that Red Bull's competitiveness would be greatly reduced, but I've not seen much evidence of it, tricky 2015 aside. People said when Podromou left for McLaren Red Bull's aero would take a hit, but it didn't happen. Even with the former head of aero gone and Newey working only part time the cars chassis is as strong as ever.

Which makes me think the teams real strength is more in its structure, its simulation and prototyping etc. Something that transcends a few people.



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#2 FPV GTHO

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 08:42

They definitely have a strong simulation team, but I think it all starts with the culture that Newey has developed.

#3 george1981

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 08:50

I think Newey is a lot more involved than he planned to be and is still having a big influence over the team. Ted Kravitz has said that the new regulations for 2017 have stirred up his interest again as it'll be a more aero formula so we'll be seeing a lot more of him next year. 



#4 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:01

I really believe RedBull's success is mainly down to Adrian Newey.

 

Adrian Newey took a step back at the end of 2014 season and 2015 RedBull chassis struggled for the several opening races.

 

2017 RedBull chassis is going to be another top chassis surely because as Christian Horner said Adrian Newey has got his motivation back thanks to new regulations.

 

The only team that can challenge RedBull is Mercedes and I really thank Mercedes.



#5 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:03

They definitely have a strong simulation team, but I think it all starts with the culture that Newey has developed.

A bit like the Brawn structure at Mercedes.

 

Having the right people in the right place is key...


Edited by GrumpyYoungMan, 31 October 2016 - 09:04.


#6 MikeV1987

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:18

That team is top notch from top to bottom, Newey is just a part of the puzzle.



#7 v@sh

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:18

I really believe RedBull's success is mainly down to Adrian Newey.

 

Adrian Newey took a step back at the end of 2014 season and 2015 RedBull chassis struggled for the several opening races.

 

2017 RedBull chassis is going to be another top chassis surely because as Christian Horner said Adrian Newey has got his motivation back thanks to new regulations.

 

The only team that can challenge RedBull is Mercedes and I really thank Mercedes.

 

Teams are never down to one man alone and while Newey has a massive amount of influence, ultimately, the personnel and structure/culture of the organisation is what makes it tick. I think while Newey gets a fair amount of credit because of his track record, it's a bit unfair to the 300-400 odd staff that also work at RB and that goes for every team up and down the pitlane.

 

You quote 2014 and 2015 as examples of bad chassis but you omit this seasons chassis which is pretty damn good. 2015 the change to the titanium skid planks was what caught them out until they figured it out around Silverstone. After that, their chassis was brilliant again. Who is to say that Newey did not have a hand for the start of the 2015 regulations?? and that the rest of the design team were the ones that figured the titanium skid planks were the issue?

 

Let's say 2017 comes around and to the surprise of everyone it is a stinker, are you going to attribute that to Newey or the other staff in the team? Newey has made rubbish cars in the past, however, more often or not he has built good ones.

 

Mercedes had a good building block when they bought Brawn GP because of the way Brawn had structured the team when he took over. Especially from his time from Ferrari, he would have learnt from that and applied it to Brawn. Mercedes just built on that with both their $$$ and their knowledge to gain the massive advantage they have now. The principle is the same as any business, if you have the structure, the talent, the strategy and the leaders in place to run a team then you are bound to be more successful than those that do not - even if F1 is in it's own little bubble and has it's own nuances.



#8 PlayboyRacer

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 09:20

Strong team. Key people in the right places.....and they burn to win.

 

Don't underestimate the influence of Adrian Newey however. He leaves a big hole if and when he departs.



#9 FPV GTHO

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 11:20

A bit like the Brawn structure at Mercedes.

Having the right people in the right place is key...


Brawn signed alot of big names to Mercedes, I think Red Bull just aren't afraid to take risks - an anti Ferrari if you will.

#10 OilFour

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:09

A bit like the Brawn structure at Mercedes.

 

Having the right people in the right place is key...

That was exactly i was thinking, but having the right people at the right place is one, second is having them motivated and IMHO that is RBR's main strenght. 



#11 shonguiz

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 12:50

You have in this thread the perfect illustration why people were terribly mistaken about the true strengh of that formidable team. Newey played a big part in designing good cars but building a great team and culture was mainly due to the implication of this very underestimated triumvirate f1-abu-dhabi-gp-2010-christian-horner-re



#12 statman

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 13:22

The thing I would like to know is: how are they getting more and more competitive during this season? They haven't introduced one major update after another right? Even on power tracks they're now fairly good compared to Merc.



#13 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 13:52

...

 

- I never said that 2014 RedBull was a bad chassis.

 

- Adrian Newey's presence after first five or six races of 2015 season got increased.

 

- Surely money, facilities and other members of the team are essential to be competitive and I never deny that but as I said before I believe RedBull's ability to produce a competitive chassis is mainly down to Adrian Newey. Just take away Adrian Newey and RedBull will struggle after the first or second year and other members won't be able to do it. IMO RedBull is nothing without Adrian Newey.

 

In another word, IMO, RedBull without Adrian Newey at best can produce as competitive chassis as the field or 2nd or 3rd best chassis but with Adrian Newey RedBull at least will always be as competitive as the field or most probably will have the best chassis.


Edited by RYARLE, 31 October 2016 - 14:04.


#14 Sparky68

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 14:04

You are all wrong, it's all down to me  :up:



#15 WilliamsF1Fan

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 14:10

You are all wrong, it's all down to me  :up:

 

I clicked on this thread hoping to see this post...

 

Thank you  :rotfl:

 

Seriously, as much as a fan of Team Willy as I am, Red Bull are an incredible outfit who currently have one of my favourite racers in the form of Ricciardo.  The team really do an incredible job and I am sure it is much more than Newey and/or Sparky68 making them great.



#16 HoldenRT

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 14:24

Hard to say.  In 2005-2008 they were ok but nothing special.  The reliability was awful in 2007 but the car (and team) started to show improvements in 2008 leading into the rule changes.  Those years with Webber and DC built a foundation within the team, similar to Rosberg/Schumacher/Brawn at Merc.  A lot of small things were sorted out and taken care of and the technical team calibrated itself.  Sort of like what Renault are trying to do now after taking over Lotus.

 

The rule changes hit.. and it gave Newey a chance to shine and played to his strengths.  Everyone had been copying his McLaren philosophy from earlier years and now McLaren were lost and RBR were the new McLaren.  From 2009 until now RBR have been consistently strong.  Then you upgrade drivers, bring in increased money from championships, increased team chemistry and morale and it all has a compound effect.  Certain technical guys have been poached to other teams but they've remained strong.  Like there is a core within that stays the same and maintains everything.  It's hard to pinpoint who that is other than Horner, Marko etc.  But there must be at least 5-10 guys holding it together.

 

It's a team thing, one man can't do it all.  Newey was a big part in the beginning but since then, it's more than that.  It's hard to pinpoint exactly, as we are on the outside. The management, technical team, simulations all seem to be efficient and work well.  Newey is able to step back and have a lesser role but still over see everything.  It'd be interesting if he left for good (which is inevitable).  Until then we are just guessing.  If he left in 2010 or 2011 it could have been harder, but after so many years.. you wonder how much difference it'd make.  It'd probably have a bigger impact if there were new regs.

 

Newey is a genius in terms of designing all of the smaller parts of the car, making them efficient.. but making them work as part of a bigger idea, where they are all on the same page and work as one.  Simulators and computers can't really do that.  IMO it's the biggest thing that separates the talented car designers, vs the great ones.



#17 Spillage

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 14:26

He's been a big factor but he's never been the only one. For years now they've had everything they need to be successful - drivers who can deliver WDCs, loads of money, good strategy decisions, slick pit work... they're just a very, very well-run team. Without Newey they'd still be right up there.

#18 LiftAndCoast

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Posted 31 October 2016 - 14:28

Rob Marshall, Dan Fallows, Paul Monaghan and Pierre Waché have all played a more significant role in the last couple of cars, since Newey stepped back to working part time in F1. And they obviously have many talented people working under them.

Any organization of that size depends on more than just one person.

But journos and broadcasters like to simplify things, so it's easier to just say "Newey".

Which is not to say that Red Bull won't benefit from Newey being more involved in the development of the RB13.

I can't wait for next season, hopefully we will see a proper challenge to the Mercs.

#19 kevinracefan

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 14:58

That team is top notch from top to bottom, Newey is just a part of the puzzle.

Christian gave the puzzle to Adrian.. Adrian is the puzzle master..



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#20 kevinracefan

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 15:01

The thing I would like to know is: how are they getting more and more competitive during this season? They haven't introduced one major update after another right? Even on power tracks they're now fairly good compared to Merc.

 

Red Bull almost always win the year long development race.. lately they've been too far behind in Oz to catch up, but even in their glory years they frequently didn't have a dominant car there, but made it dominant by summer break..



#21 Clatter

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 15:17

You have in this thread the perfect illustration why people were terribly mistaken about the true strengh of that formidable team. Newey played a big part in designing good cars but building a great team and culture was mainly due to the implication of this very underestimated triumvirate f1-abu-dhabi-gp-2010-christian-horner-re

Depending on how much freedom/influence Newley had in the hirings and building of the design team his role could be very under estimated when designing good cars is all the recognition he gets.

#22 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 15:29

Newey is arguably the best F1 designer ever, natural that success is not down to one more there is a reason Mercedes employ +1400 to field two cars. He is however the driving force, as they say "It's a process", laying down a way to do things, clear lines of communication, clear job and function descriptions, an open mind attitude of trying new avenues of improvements.

 

I would say sort of how Ferrari had a peak of 'the perfect storm - Todt, Byrne, Brawn and Schumacher - Clear lines set out, compliment each other getting the results.

 

:cool:



#23 shonguiz

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Posted 01 November 2016 - 15:35

Depending on how much freedom/influence Newley had in the hirings and building of the design team his role could be very under estimated when designing good cars is all the recognition he gets.

Which is already a huge recognition compared to what these three get meaning nothing. 


Edited by shonguiz, 01 November 2016 - 15:35.


#24 minime

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 00:11

It is one thing to have the best designer, it is another to manage the team and ensure that the design eventually wins on the track. If a disruptive manager was to replace Horner then you would soon see Adrian Newey's efforts diluted and I bet he would pack up and leave.  



#25 Melbourne Park

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 03:25

I recall some time (a year or so) after Newey accepted  joining RBR, he was queried about how long things would take and that it appeared the team wasn't making much progress. He said back then I recall, that in fact lots of changes were happened, and that they were almost in place. Mostly he said they related to making productive changes, and to getting things right in the priority of change processes. Things that Jaguar were behind in. 

 

I recall that Newey did not like the management structure at McLaren at times, and that he had looked forward for sometime to going to a smaller team, and building success. Recall that McLaren would often have numerous solutions for a change, and would prototype them and then discard them. I suspected that Newey saw this process as potentially a waste of resources. He said I recall, a key was getting a change right at the earliest. That process ain't easy in racing. One might ask too, how many teams have brought innovation to a track and got it right? Normally change takes some time ... IMO RBR have a good record in doing that, and also I suspect teams are better at it than they used to be. I suspect that RBR's systems have been adopted by other teams over the last few years, due to personnel changes. 

 

So, much of it was management. And no doubt, acceptance that the revised processes and channels of communication, were fully accepted.

 

No doubt whatever, that Horner was also critical. And I think it was Horner who so much wanted Newey. But Newey had intended to go to Jaguar a few years before, but McLaren changed his work load, promised more time away and other promises, and he stayed a few more years. 

 

I personally doubt RBR would have been as strong without Horner. But Newey played a huge role in the critical processes, and no doubt, his inspiration for the cars. I think Mark Webber's difficulties with his burns and the car being too small for him, was classic Newey!!


Edited by Melbourne Park, 02 November 2016 - 03:29.


#26 lbennie

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 04:26

Adrian Newey, Christian Horner, Paul Monaghan, Rob Marshall & Dan Fallows would all be snapped up by any top team if given the chance.

 

When you have world class talent like that all operating happily in their respective areas while not being limited by budget at all, the end result is what we have.



#27 Nathan

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 05:21

Teams are never down to one man alone and while Newey has a massive amount of influence, ultimately, the personnel and structure/culture of the organisation is what makes it tick. I think while Newey gets a fair amount of credit because of his track record

 

I think why Newey get's so much credit is because he is very much the person that put the structure and culture you speak of into place.  If you learn about the history of RBR you quickly come to see anything technically related - dynamic and aero simulation, quality control, design processes etc. were all instigated by Newey.  When Red Bull signed him that was all put on his plate.  Horner was given charge of team structure/operations, sporting administration etc., Helmut the drivers.


Edited by Nathan, 02 November 2016 - 05:25.


#28 Christophe77

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 12:53

Just reads this guys bio:

 

http://www.redbullra.../paul-monaghan#

 

"But once free, Monaghan joined the fledgling Red Bull Racing team where he says the change in atmosphere was immediately palpable. "You could tell straight away that there was a different philosophy within the team," he says. "It was one of: 'right – we want to go and win this, as opposed to just being in it' and surviving.' It was a bit of a breath of fresh air. It was a team that was clearly ambitious, serious, had an element of fun to it, and I've enjoyed every minute of it."" 

 

I think the 'fun' part is important and is what sets Red Bull appart from others, esp. McLaren. 



#29 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 13:07

Just reads this guys bio:

 

http://www.redbullra.../paul-monaghan#

 

"But once free, Monaghan joined the fledgling Red Bull Racing team where he says the change in atmosphere was immediately palpable. "You could tell straight away that there was a different philosophy within the team," he says. "It was one of: 'right – we want to go and win this, as opposed to just being in it' and surviving.' It was a bit of a breath of fresh air. It was a team that was clearly ambitious, serious, had an element of fun to it, and I've enjoyed every minute of it."" 

 

I think the 'fun' part is important and is what sets Red Bull appart from others, esp. McLaren. 

 

Horner does not emanate fun to me.

 

:cool:



#30 Neno

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 13:16

That team is top notch from top to bottom, Newey is just a part of the puzzle.

its sad you believe so 



#31 superden

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 15:16

Without Newey, they wouldn't be where they are ... errr, were.



#32 kevinracefan

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 16:39

Horner does not emanate fun to me.

 

:cool:

compared to Ronnie D, Frank W and all the rest he's like robin Williams..



#33 f1paul

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 17:07

Jeremy Clarkson went to the same university as Adrian Newey and he said that Adrian copied his physics work. So we should say well done to Clarkson for coming up with all of this aero stuff!  :lol:

edit:I mean same high school


Edited by f1paul, 04 November 2016 - 16:42.


#34 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 17:40

compared to Ronnie D, Frank W and all the rest he's like robin Williams..

 

They are possibly fun and engaging privately, however in matters F1 they are sanctimonious, hypocritical, self-entitled twerps.

 

They = every single Team Manager.

 

:cool:



#35 pdac

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 22:46

You are all wrong, it's all down to me  :up:

 

I've always trusted what you say about Red Bull



#36 Sparky68

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 09:11

Horner does not emanate fun to me.

 

:cool:

He is actually a very funny bloke with a wicked sense of humour.



#37 statman

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 09:12

Horner does not emanate fun to me.

 

:cool:

 

 

 

He does have a sense of humor  ;)


Edited by statman, 03 November 2016 - 09:13.


#38 Sparky68

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 11:25

Im in that 1st video!



#39 statman

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 16:57

Im in that 1st video!

Have you ever had the opportunity to visit the "executive toilet" that was mentioned in the video? :lol:



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#40 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 06:22

Jeremy Clarkson went to the same university as Adrian Newey and he said that Adrian copied his physics work. So we should say well done to Clarkson for coming up with all of this aero stuff!  :lol:

 

As if Clarkson studied science at University  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

 

[I.e., Clarkson is a journalist and a writer, and I presume this was a joke!]


Edited by V8 Fireworks, 04 November 2016 - 06:23.


#41 w1Y

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 07:56

Think Redbull have mastered their design philosophy with the high rake etc.

Remember at the start of their dominance they were always seen as amazing a euro wise but a draggy cat which struggled on the straights. Then that seemed to dissappear and they could dominatell everywhere. Whatever that was they have used moving forward. The only reason they haven't in the merc area is because the engine was so far down on power.

But the biggest thing to me is how that doesn't even to be a big issue anymore

I honestly eleven MK is a perfect place to have a team too

#42 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 09:31

Jeremy Clarkson went to the same university as Adrian Newey and he said that Adrian copied his physics work. So we should say well done to Clarkson for coming up with all of this aero stuff!  :lol:

 

No, they went to the same school.



#43 Amphicar

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Posted 04 November 2016 - 09:41

No, they went to the same school.

Yes - Repton Public School, from which Clarkson was expelled "for drinking, smoking and generally making a nuisance of myself" without taking his A level exams. Consequently, he never went to university, though he does have an honorary Doctorate in Engineering from Oxford Brookes.

 

clarkson_2039638i.jpg