91 replies to this topic

[Alan Cox]

This may interest some TNFers, presented by Philip Glenister and Ant Anstead about the restoration of what is described as the prototype Lotus Elite. It was sold at the NEC auction last weekend. I have watched previous series they have done called 'For the love of cars' which I have found quite enjoyable and entertaining.
http://www.channel4....ring-a-race-car

[Charlieman]

Some information about the restoration work:

https://www.silverst...com/lotus-elite

 

Make up your own mind about how much of the original it comprises...

[bill p]

Some information about the restoration work:
https://www.silverst...com/lotus-elite
 
Make up your own mind about how much of the original it comprises...

Original body/monocoque, original engine & original gearbox (admittedly both rebuilt).

There are a lot of "historic" cars competing that don't have any of the above original parts.......

[ianselva]

I have already turned it off as being the usual staged  'restoration cr~p.

[Vitesse2]

Watching on +1. Oh dear ... *click* ...

[2F-001]

I really thought this might be something better than the usual tv 'restoration' fodder.
How naïve I am...

[Sharman]

Watching on +1. Oh dear ... *click* ...

Exactly what I was going to say V2

[Gary C]

'You can't have a car restoration/makeover programme without a deadline, I'm afraid.' - said EVERY TV programme commissioning editor.

[Allan Lupton]

Very "top gear" with much shouting at each other (and at the camera when driving), making a big thing about inexperience and as is often the way it was about vandalism rather than restoration - all that roll cage with nowhere structural to fix it to. The wheels seemed to have as many spokes each as the four original wheels would have had between 'em. Good job they had leather bonnet straps as the bonnet seemed to lift at a very modest speed, so no proper internal catch.

There was some talk about someone reshelling an Elite as if you could just buy a shell like you can for an MGB - o.k. it's only Channel 4 so you don't expect truth/logic/credibility to be high on the list.

 

OK we all know it isn't us that C4 is aiming at, but it is still disappointing that they have to be so crass.

[JtP2]

I liked the bit about the supposed CB23 being a ringer and then reregistered in 68 with a G registration on a car that Lotus stopped production on in 62. What it would be was one of the Elites sold off as rolling chassis in 68, I think £400 was the price.

[john aston]

One of them fitted with twincam and tested by Car magazine in 68 I think ? Programme was ok , but juvenile production values spoiled it. 

[nicanary]

Very "top gear" with much shouting at each other (and at the camera when driving), making a big thing about inexperience and as is often the way it was about vandalism rather than restoration - all that roll cage with nowhere structural to fix it to. The wheels seemed to have as many spokes each as the four original wheels would have had between 'em. Good job they had leather bonnet straps as the bonnet seemed to lift at a very modest speed, so no proper internal catch.

There was some talk about someone reshelling an Elite as if you could just buy a shell like you can for an MGB - o.k. it's only Channel 4 so you don't expect truth/logic/credibility to be high on the list.

 

OK we all know it isn't us that C4 is aiming at, but it is still disappointing that they have to be so crass.

Who exactly are they aiming at? It's too puerile for genuine classic car enthusiasts, and the subject matter is too specific for the casual viewer.  I can't see why Channel 4 made the programme at all.

 

(PS period driver "Mike Beckworth" - I actually cringed.)

[Alan Cox]

Sadly, the poorest programme that this team have made. Some of the earlier ones of cars without a racing element were more illuminating. As ever, the 'race against time' element is a real pain.

[Sharman]

i don't think that Elite bodies were self coloured so for me the better option would have been to strip it back to a bare shell using a bead blast facility. When I did my Marcos over 20 years ago it proved simple and effective, plus there were no grind marks to correct with filler.

[Lola5000]

One of them fitted with twincam and tested by Car magazine in 68 I think ? Programme was ok , but juvenile production values spoiled it. 

Correct that car is in Melbourne .

[BRG]

I quite enjoyed it.

[Charles Helps]

Very "top gear" with much shouting at each other (and at the camera when driving), making a big thing about inexperience and as is often the way it was about vandalism rather than restoration - all that roll cage with nowhere structural to fix it to. The wheels seemed to have as many spokes each as the four original wheels would have had between 'em. Good job they had leather bonnet straps as the bonnet seemed to lift at a very modest speed, so no proper internal catch.

There was some talk about someone reshelling an Elite as if you could just buy a shell like you can for an MGB - o.k. it's only Channel 4 so you don't expect truth/logic/credibility to be high on the list.

 

OK we all know it isn't us that C4 is aiming at, but it is still disappointing that they have to be so crass.

The lifting bonnet secured by a leather strap seems to be a period feature judging by the b&w picture on the auction website. (Image 11 of 13)

 

There are always some nuggets to be found - I'd love to see the factory record book that Clive Chapman was holding/showing in one scene, I suspect that it covers more than just the Elite...

[Allan Lupton]

The lifting bonnet secured by a leather strap seems to be a period feature judging by the b&w picture on the auction website. (Image 11 of 13)

I have no recollection of leather straps on most of them and here's a period photo of a well-known racer racing with the bonnet in its right place held by the internal catch:

 

Les Leston on December 26, 1961 at speed through Paddock Hill Bend, Brands Hatch

[elansprint72]

A friend of mine "discovered" this car just around the corner from where he lives in, Newcastle Staffs and had been negotiating with the widowed owner for a couple of years, when the car suddenly was no longer there.

 

Anstead appeared to know nothing about the Costin nose fitted by the Barber racing team and put it back to a configuration with the standard air-intake but without the bumpers, which it wore as raced by Barber initially. Therefore they removed some history and created a look-alike racer  front which, as far as I can tell, the Barber team never raced. Surely, if he was indeed involved, Malcolm Ricketts would have stopped this?

 

The footage showed Anstead apparently welding up a roll-cage but that was not the FIA cage in the car as raced by him.

 

They made a lot of noise about this being THE Earls Court show car, but THE 1957 prototype show car  was cut up after being on display for months at Hornsea, perhaps the Barber car was there in 1958, I don't know.

 

What's next?

[elansprint72]

i don't think that Elite bodies were self coloured so for me the better option would have been to strip it back to a bare shell using a bead blast facility. When I did my Marcos over 20 years ago it proved simple and effective, plus there were no grind marks to correct with filler.

Cowboys.

[h4887]

I have no recollection of leather straps on most of them and here's a period photo of a well-known racer racing with the bonnet in its right place held by the internal catch:

 

Les Leston on December 26, 1961 at speed through Paddock Hill Bend, Brands Hatch

Not sure that's Brands Hatch...

[Sharman]

Cowboys.

Who?

[kayemod]

i don't think that Elite bodies were self coloured so for me the better option would have been to strip it back to a bare shell using a bead blast facility. When I did my Marcos over 20 years ago it proved simple and effective, plus there were no grind marks to correct with filler.

 

You're right, they weren't self coloured, with the few early ones I saw, transparency was such that you could almost read a newspaper through them, I'm exaggerating slightly of course, but certainly newspaper headlines. Well before my time at Lotus, but Elites were often talked about, and I spent much of my time there working alongside Body Process Manager Albert Adams, he dated from the Hornsey days, and was involved in body manufacturing from the very beginnings. Working with Ron Hickman, Albert produced the famous "standard production Elite" that was sent to Bristol as an example of the standards that Lotus would expect to receive in all the cars that Bristol made for them, we know how representative the car really was, and how that contract turned out...

 

Al often told me about those early days, and he explained that the first cars were produced in epoxy resin, not the standard polyester expected with fibreglass mouldings, very different to work with and to work on. Now I've no idea how many Elite bodies were produced this way, and I don't know if any of them ever went to customers, but if the one featured in the CH4 programme was really that early, it could have been one of them, though it didn't look like it to me.

 

I didn't think the programmes was all that bad, pretty much what I was expecting really for something aimed at a non-expert TV audience, though there were huge unexplained gaps in the process we were shown, and no way could thay have done it all in six weeks. I know all about Ant's reputation, but I think that Edd China of Wheeler Dealers would have done it much better.

[DogEarred]

I don't know whether to feel sorry for the chap who bought it for a "world record" sum.

 

He's definitely bought a pretty car but in the great scheme of things, is it that unique or original?

 

But that opens the same, well worn debate about 'historic cars' in general.

[Stephen W]

The 'history' element was riddled with errors, most of the footage used to describe the history of Lotus in F1 didn't match the commentary, the 1963 Oulton Park Gold Cup featured prominently and the whole "is it a ringer" element appeared to be fabricated.

 

Basically a half hour show stretched to an hour by twaddle.

 

[Allan Lupton]

Not sure that's Brands Hatch...

Well the caption was wrong in that it was Paddock Bend (not Paddock Hill) in those days and I'm sure it looked like that then. Leston won his race (Peco Trophy "C") from Bob Olthoff's MGA Twincam

[kayemod]

 

Anstead appeared to know nothing about the Costin nose fitted by the Barber racing team and put it back to a configuration with the standard air-intake but without the bumpers, which it wore as raced by Barber initially. Therefore they removed some history and created a look-alike racer  front which, as far as I can tell, the Barber team never raced. Surely, if he was indeed involved, Malcolm Ricketts would have stopped this?

 

 

I'm not at all sure about the un-original "Costin nose", which the programme didn't say much about. I think it was a DIY copy, done using lots of filler, something that Frank himself as an aerodynamicist and proper engineeer would never have done, for weight reasons alone. As far as I know, there were only two genuine ones, Les Leston's car and maybe one other, but lots of home made copies. They obviously didn't try very hard to find out the complete history, but if the nose was a home made job, I can't see that left alone it would have added anything much to the car's value. I wasn't watching very closely, but it seemed to me there were several things about the car's history that were more than slightly suspect. Also, if the previous owner knew much about early Lotus paint jobs, he wouldn't have chosen to respray it in 1970s Lotus Pistachio, unless of course he thought he was working on a 70s Elan.

 

Grinding paint off the car as they did was barbaric, that will cause long term problems with cracking etc. If the shell was really a Lotus original, those bodies were quite thin, you messed with them at your peril. They must have thinned and damaged it in places, and they have to be re-coated properly before painting, not an amateur job. These days epoxy is usually the chosen method, though that would have used up most of their claimed six week deadline in itself.

[chunder27]

It's hilarious, reading some of the comments.

 

I have no desire to watch this show, but some of the tiny errors being picked up here are really not fair.

 

This is a tv show aimed at all sorts of people, not historic racing tweed jacket nuts that we all know make the sport a rather laughable affair at times, but have astonishing knowledge and powers of research! It's not for you.

 

It's a tv show, and by it's nature it is there to appeal to more than you.

 

So discuss it fine, but picking it apart in minute detail is rather ridiculous to be fair.

[Allan Lupton]

It's hilarious, reading some of the comments.

 

I have no desire to watch this show, but some of the tiny errors being picked up here are really not fair.

 

This is a tv show aimed at all sorts of people, not historic racing tweed jacket nuts that we all know make the sport a rather laughable affair at times, but have astonishing knowledge and powers of research! It's not for you.

 

It's a tv show, and by it's nature it is there to appeal to more than you.

 

So discuss it fine, but picking it apart in minute detail is rather ridiculous to be fair.

Good to see that we've amused you, but I haven't noticed any tiny errors or minute detail being commented on in this thread and so I don't really think your post has contributed much.

As I said, the programme was not aimed at us but it was not clear at whom it was aimed.

[Vitesse2]

And I'm sure we could come up with lots of tiny errors and minute details if we really wanted to ...

[Sharman]

I'm not at all sure about the un-original "Costin nose", which the programme didn't say much about. I think it was a DIY copy, done using lots of filler, something that Frank himself as an aerodynamicist and proper engineeer would never have done, for weight reasons alone. As far as I know, there were only two genuine ones, Les Leston's car and maybe one other, but lots of home made copies. They obviously didn't try very hard to find out the complete history, but if the nose was a home made job, I can't see that left alone it would have added anything much to the car's value. I wasn't watching very closely, but it seemed to me there were several things about the car's history that were more than slightly suspect. Also, if the previous owner knew much about early Lotus paint jobs, he wouldn't have chosen to respray it in 1970s Lotus Pistachio, unless of course he thought he was working on a 70s Elan.
 
Grinding paint off the car as they did was barbaric, that will cause long term problems with cracking etc. If the shell was really a Lotus original, those bodies were quite thin, you messed with them at your peril. They must have thinned and damaged it in places, and they have to be re-coated properly before painting, not an amateur job. These days epoxy is usually the chosen method, though that would have used up most of their claimed six week deadline in itself.

100% agreement, hence my preference for bead blasting, in my case the chosen medium was crushed coconut shell which took the paint off but left the gel coat unharmed. The facility was in Coventry and whilst I was there I was shown a factory Jaguar shell which had "gone wrong" in the paint shop and had been sent to have the offending layer removed. The man said that with a skilled operator it was possible to work down through various repaints a layer at a time.
On second thoughts it was Walnut Shell

Edited by Sharman, 22 November 2016 - 16:18.

[dwh43scale]

It's a sad state of affairs if we have to accept that any TV documentary can be riddled with factual inaccuracies - am I sounding old now ?

[JtP2]

It's hilarious, reading some of the comments.
 
I have no desire to watch this show, but some of the tiny errors being picked up here are really not fair.
 
This is a tv show aimed at all sorts of people, not historic racing tweed jacket nuts that we all know make the sport a rather laughable affair at times, but have astonishing knowledge and powers of research! It's not for you.
 
It's a tv show, and by it's nature it is there to appeal to more than you.
 
So discuss it fine, but picking it apart in minute detail is rather ridiculous to be fair.

The trouble with programs like this are that the misfacts once out there, however inaccurate, then become tablets of stone and anyone queering them is then told they are wrong. One only has to follow the Lotus black badge saga as a perfect example.

[Allan Lupton]

It's a sad state of affairs if we have to accept that any TV documentary can be riddled with factual inaccuracies - am I sounding old now ?

Those of us who remember the Channel 4 "Comet Cover up" hatchet job are never surprised by the way C4 documentaries never let the facts get in the way, including editing interviews to yield a totally different meaning from what was originally there.

[PeterElleray]

It's hilarious, reading some of the comments.

 

I have no desire to watch this show, but some of the tiny errors being picked up here are really not fair.

 

This is a tv show aimed at all sorts of people, not historic racing tweed jacket nuts that we all know make the sport a rather laughable affair at times, but have astonishing knowledge and powers of research! It's not for you.

 

It's a tv show, and by it's nature it is there to appeal to more than you.

 

So discuss it fine, but picking it apart in minute detail is rather ridiculous to be fair.

Don't you think that the subject matter is a little too specialised for it not to be of interest to 'historic tweed jacket nuts' ?

 

You seem to suggest that a lack of research and historical accuracy is only to be expected - unfortunately you are probably right, but not for the reason's you are thinking of.

[elansprint72]

Who?

The chaps on the TV programme who set about the paint with sanding discs! They should have done what you suggested.

[BRG]

If only you lot had been there to advise, I am sure it would have improved the programme, not to mention the restoration, no end. 

[elansprint72]

I'm not at all sure about the un-original "Costin nose", which the programme didn't say much about. I think it was a DIY copy, done using lots of filler, something that Frank himself as an aerodynamicist and proper engineeer would never have done, for weight reasons alone. As far as I know, there were only two genuine ones, Les Leston's car and maybe one other, but lots of home made copies. They obviously didn't try very hard to find out the complete history, but if the nose was a home made job, I can't see that left alone it would have added anything much to the car's value. I wasn't watching very closely, but it seemed to me there were several things about the car's history that were more than slightly suspect. Also, if the previous owner knew much about early Lotus paint jobs, he wouldn't have chosen to respray it in 1970s Lotus Pistachio, unless of course he thought he was working on a 70s Elan.

 

 

Rob, that nose was not on the car in '61 but was in '62 see DCN piece here: https://www.goodwood...nd-motorsport/

 

I always thought of the Barber car (perhaps wrongly)  as "Laystall green", even our eminent witer calls it lime green, so it's perhaps not surprising that someone reached for a can of Lotus pistaccio at some point.

 

As Barber was well in with Chapman and the ex-DH blokes I always assumed that Costin had done this nose too; noticeably there is not a flush-fit windscreen though. There is an interesting section starting P105 or Ortenburger's Elite book where Costin describes how they came up with the nose "the Le Mans front" for Jean Francois Malle, they took the car to the test weekend (along with tufts of wool!). He says they came back with lots of info leading to re-profiling of the front wings, the intake hole, the flush screen and rounding off the nose plus headlamp fairings. He reckons they gained 16-20bhp and were timed at 141 mph! He says this lead to him being commissioned to make another four.

Edited by elansprint72, 22 November 2016 - 19:51.

[Bloggsworth]

Wierd how thay converted it back from what was clearly a racing car into a mere road car to then sell it a Chris Barber's racing car which it no longer looked like. They do know how to make a programme 30 minutes longer than it's worth.

[Peter Morley]

And I'm sure we could come up with lots of tiny errors and minute details if we really wanted to ...

 

Like the wrong bonnet badge (should have been a painted one - reasonably easy to find on Ebay for £360+ currently!), modern instruments etc.

 

I kept thinking that he'd go quicker if he used more than 4,000 rpm - every time you could see the (horrible) rev-counter the needle wasn't very far round the dial!

 

Was frustrating when they said the first Lotus F1 was the 12 and showed a picture of a 24...

 

But I thought it was entertaining (my standards are low!) and not entirely unrealistic and I'd rather see more people getting involved in historic racing who are interested in the history of their car, know how it works and are prepared to/capable of working on it themselves.

After all it could have been Ant building one of his DBR1 replicas and racing it at Goodwood with other celebrities... (not that Goodwood would accept such a thing but I assume people on this forum will understand the point).

 

The one thing that I really didn't understand is why the previous owner was meant to get excited about them selling the car for a "world record price" which gave Ant & Phil a "profit" of almost as much as she'd sold the car for...

[Sharman]

Like the wrong bonnet badge (should have been a painted one - reasonably easy to find on Ebay for £360+ currently!), modern instruments etc.
 
I kept thinking that he'd go quicker if he used more than 4,000 rpm - every time you could see the (horrible) rev-counter the needle wasn't very far round the dial!
 
Was frustrating when they said the first Lotus F1 was the 12 and showed a picture of a 24...
 
But I thought it was entertaining (my standards are low!) and not entirely unrealistic and I'd rather see more people getting involved in historic racing who are interested in the history of their car, know how it works and are prepared to/capable of working on it themselves.
After all it could have been Ant building one of his DBR1 replicas and racing it at Goodwood with other celebrities... (not that Goodwood would accept such a thing but I assume people on this forum will understand the point).
 
The one thing that I really didn't understand is why the previous owner was meant to get excited about them selling the car for a "world record price" which gave Ant & Phil a "profit" of almost as much as she'd sold the car for...

I think she was on a cut, curious how auction costs were unmentioned £106000 at say 15% means that they made (according to their figures) about £5000 on the deal.

[Alan Cox]

I think she was on a cut, curious how auction costs were unmentioned £106000 at say 15% means that they made (according to their figures) about £5000 on the deal.

They did say that they were going to split any profit three ways between Anstead, Glenister and the previous owner

[JtP2]

I think she was on a cut, curious how auction costs were unmentioned £106000 at say 15% means that they made (according to their figures) about £5000 on the deal.

the auction site says £121,000? +20% commission?

[Sharman]

the auction site says £121,000? +20% commission?

That means about £17000 split 3 ways with the auctioneers trousering £42000 or thereabouts. In the words of the old song "Come inside you silly bugger. Come inside"

[Peter Morley]

That means about £17000 split 3 ways with the auctioneers trousering £42000 or thereabouts. In the words of the old song "Come inside you silly bugger. Come inside"

 

They might have reduced the sellers commission in exchange for the TV publicity?

But the fact that the auction house could have trousered 40+ grand and offer the buyer very little in the way of a guarantee shows why many people prefer to sell cars themselves or through dealers (who do have to offer some kind of guarantee and can't just say "didn't you read the small print my son").

Nice work if you can get it - rent a room, pay for some adverts, print a catalogue (which they have the cheek to make a profit on) and make far more money than any of the sellers...

 

As usual with these programmes I assume Ant's labour was unpaid?

Edited by Peter Morley, 23 November 2016 - 20:25.

[arttidesco]

It's hilarious, reading some of the comments.

 

I have no desire to watch this show, but some of the tiny errors being picked up here are really not fair.

 

This is a tv show aimed at all sorts of people, not historic racing tweed jacket nuts that we all know make the sport a rather laughable affair at times, but have astonishing knowledge and powers of research! It's not for you.

 

 

While I appreciate the sentiment I believe the purpose of any tv show should be to follow John Reith's maxim "to inform, to educate and to entertain", and to infuse each of these aims with the pursuit of excellence, I stopped watching tv a long time ago when it willfully turned away from the first two criteria.

 

It would have taken the show's intern's all of two mins to come up with all the correct details about the history on the car through a forum such as this and it would have cost them their favourite price of now't.

 

Instead it sounds like they got what Winston Churchill observed was as a "tuppeny Punch and Judy show" and dragged a wonderful car with history down into the cesspit of mediocrity, albeit still selling for a world record price, in the process.

[john aston]

Not sure how Reithian most of current BBC output is but remembering the ghastly. po faced rubbish I watched in black  and white  as a kid I am not sure I want to return. Ch 4 programme was far from perfect but better than most. The best motoring TV I have seen is Jay Leno's  show- now there is an enthusiast's  enthusiast . 

[chunder27]

John above is largely hitting the point

 

The only way you can really establish utter accuracy and factual perfection is for the program to be made by a group of enthusiasts or bank rolled by a multi millionaire one like Jay Leno

 

He will ensure everything is right as he knows, and he is rich enough to make the shows himself, so can have more control over details.

 

The companies that make shows for BBC are largely ones involving the main star or who get sent countless ideas and scripts for similar shows, have a team and prod company of their own and can make a show about a missing person one minute, a house renovation the next and then something like this.

 

They buy the idea, then try and sell it to a tv company, hence they are tv people first, so peeling the program to pieces misses the point. It was on, it involved famous people and it might lead to others, they don't make shows like these as one offs, they are trying to establish a series or mini-series of 3 or 4 shows. How many watched, it, was there good feedback, sell, sell sell.

[Sharman]

John above is largely hitting the point
 
The only way you can really establish utter accuracy and factual perfection is for the program to be made by a group of enthusiasts or bank rolled by a multi millionaire one like Jay Leno
 
He will ensure everything is right as he knows, and he is rich enough to make the shows himself, so can have more control over details.
 
The companies that make shows for BBC are largely ones involving the main star or who get sent countless ideas and scripts for similar shows, have a team and prod company of their own and can make a show about a missing person one minute, a house renovation the next and then something like this.
 
They buy the idea, then try and sell it to a tv company, hence they are tv people first, so peeling the program to pieces misses the point. It was on, it involved famous people and it might lead to others, they don't make shows like these as one offs, they are trying to establish a series or mini-series of 3 or 4 shows. How many watched, it, was there good feedback, sell, sell sell.

Say what you like but when making a factual programme the first essential is that the facts are correct.

[chunder27]

Wrong

 

The first thing is to try and make it appealing to the general public and the tv company. If it was on a specialised engineering channel or Discovery fair enough research and factual accuracy are key, but it wasn't it was on a general interest channel.  Research would have been done to a level, but not painstaking. No-one died, it's not about a war hero or a downed bomber, it's an old racing car. So a few perhaps sketchy facts might annoy you, but not the vast majority. If you got a pilot's name wrong or his Squadron wrong, that is far worse yes?

 

You might say research should be the first thing, and that is to an extent true I imagine, but selling, making it appealing and having some kind of driving goal through the program are the prime directives, not factual accuracy, as most people who watched it probably don't care about detail specifics. And neither should they.

 

Only anoraks do. And that is their choice not the tv peoples.