34 replies to this topic

[alexocfp]

Just finished watching this film. I thought it was excellent.
Has anyone else seen it? Was anyone there at those rallies at that time?

Also, the film claims that rallying was more popular than F1 in 1986. Is that claim true?

http://www.group-b-film.com/index.html

Edited by alexocfp, 28 November 2016 - 15:47.

[Tim Murray]

It depends on how one defines 'popular'. Here in the UK our big rally of the year, the RAC, regularly drew total spectator attendance into the millions, compared to the hundred thousand or so who went to the British Grand Prix.

This was of course back in the 1970s and '80s, when the RAC was massive and no self-respecting enthusiast - even the racing fans like me - would miss the chance to get out and watch a stage or two of the RAC. My motor club in Bristol would regularly send a contingent into South Wales to marshal on one of the stages, and most other motor clubs would be doing their bit all around the country.

In those days the rally covered a large part of the UK. In 1986 there were 45 special stages in England, Scotland and Wales, but even then the event was starting to suffer restrictions - there had been 65 stages the previous year and many more back in the '70s. There were usually getting on for two hundred cars on the entry list.

I'm vaguely aware that there was a recent event called Wales Rally GB, the British round of the World Rally Championship. Google tells me that 66 entrants tackled 22 special stages in a fairly restricted area of mid-Wales, and the event was as usual won by someone called Sebastian. I've no idea how many people paid to watch it, but it may still be the case that it gets a bigger total attendance than the British GP, even though the event is a shadow of its former self.

I know there are many of us here on TNF who regularly attended, marshalled and competed on the event back in its heyday. Some of my most vivid motor sport memories involve standing in a Welsh forest in the middle of the night listening to the yowl of an approaching Stratos - or Quattro with its unmistakeable fluttering turbo wastegate - with the engine note rising and falling as it drew closer and closer through the forest. Then the incredible explosion of light and noise as it shot past.

For all I know, it may still be like that, but it's more than fifteen years since I last went out to watch the RAC. Please forgive this tedious wittering from a grumpy old git.

[chunder27]

Stage rallying and single venue stuff in the UK has been horrendously emasculated in the last year by health and safety and insurance legislation.

 

There were a number of accidents in the UK a few years ago in Scotland and other places and people were killed.

 

As a result our genius MSA decided to get all hissy over spectators. So you now on a lot of rallies have to stand in pens and no longer have free reign to walk where you want.

 

I think you still can on forest events but on most single venues you are in pens in the service area or out in another area.

 

It's awful, and has two effect, in that you now cannot help out crews or even warn others that there has been a crash.

 

It's dumb and knee jerk, but that's the MSA all over sadly, they do very little positive these days.

[Allan Lupton]

Like Tim, I was part of the large marshalling force of the RAC Rally in the 1980s and on one occasion I was part of the Time Control at the Start of an undisclosed forest stage well up a hill in Wales starting around midnight. We were setting up when countless locals appeared to spectate and stumped off into the night to watch at their favourite corners. Of course as the stage wasn't advertised we had no provision for spectator marshals, but we told 'em where the stage went and left them to it.

We worked out the the local Forestry Commission staff knew what we would be doing in their land and they'd tell their friends in the pub and so on . . .

 

Such non-paying spectators would not have appeared in the statistics of course, but they were there and all over the country there would have been similar occurances.

 

Mind you at much the same time I could go to Silverstone to watch Friday's practice and if it looked as if it would be a good race I bought a ticket for a seat in the Stowe grandstand and came back the next day to watch the Grand Prix (and several supporting races). Ticket price was around the same as a tank of petrol.

[Allen Brown]

Even I went to the RAC Rally stage at Sutton Park in the 1980s, and I have a well-documented aversion to anything with a roof.

 

Watching Tony Pond in the Metro 6R4 almost made me want to buy one.  Almost.  Not quite.

 

The height of the Group B era did not last very long but it was extraordinarily popular.  Don't forget that it coincided with a period in F1 dominated by turbo engines, and all the newspapers ever wanted to talk about was some bloke with a moustache failing to win the title.  For a lot of us, rallying was a welcome relief.

[alexocfp]

Please forgive this tedious wittering from a grumpy old git.

What are you talking about Tim? That was a GREAT and informative post and, if anything, it was too short.

Thank you to everyone that responded. Your stories helped enhance the documentary I just watched.

Being that I was born and raised in NYC, the only racing that was shown for the most part on free TV in thr 80's was the Indy 500.

I wish Group B rallying would return. Unfortunately the nanny state world we live in won't allow it. Imagine an event where the spectators can be on the road while cars are nearing them.

[Adrian Beese]

Plus 1 for Tim

If the MSA could they would ban all sorts of rallying.

 

Old git mode now.

 

Standing on Epynt ranges in the middle of the night, temperature minus god knows what watching the lights get closer, then the wail of a BDA Escort, the shattering sound of a Stratos. Hairs on the back of your neck raised, Stig left footing a SAAB 96 through a bend, brakes glowing. Waiting for hours to make sure that the bloke from your club, way down the field was still in it. Finally getting back to the car to thaw out.

 

I wish I had bottled some of that experience, you would get a fortune for it now in our sterilised world

[RS2000]

"The Group B Era" was undoubtedly popular with spectators but far less so with competitors at all levels. It has been further tarnished in recent years by a "documentary" that has been endlessly repeated on minor terrestrial TV channels and which contains major errors of all kinds, even down to the chronology of which cars arrived on the scene in which order. Its ultimate sin was to include an interview with one of the spectators injured in the fatal accident on the 1986 Portuguese Internatonal Rally that began the end of GpB, in which he blamed the driver of the car that hit him rather than the organisers' total lack of spectator control or his own stupidity

 

Let's also remember that when "GpB" is mentioned (then and now) it is invariably assumed to refer to so-called "supercars". It didn't. When GpN and A replaced Gp1 and 2, there were initially not enough cars homologated in those groups to fill an International entry. Gp2 and 4 had to be run on for 2 years and almost anything else on 4 wheels was homologated into GpB. It's great to be able to dine out on stories of "how I finished one of the last real RAC Rallies driving a GpB car"...except that reality was it was a re-homologated car with more in common with previous Gp1 spec.

 

I think it was Christian Geisdorfer who was filmed in the GpB documentary I mention above saying "it was a madness and it had to end". Yes it did - but mainly for what it represented. GpA was soon as fast, leave alone the "Tonka Toy" cars of the present WRC.

Edited by RS2000, 28 November 2016 - 17:23.

[BRG]

I think it was Christian Geistdorfer who was filmed in the GpB documentary I mention above saying "it was a madness and it had to end". Yes it did - but mainly for what it represented. GpA was soon as fast, leave alone the "Tonka Toy" cars of the present WRC.

Quite so.  What worse about Gp B was that it was taking rallying away from ordinary competitors by generating cars that were completely out of reach except for factory teams.  Before that, you could brew up a competitive Escort or Manta in your garage and go and compete with the best of the best.  

[TecnoRacing]

Its ultimate sin was to include an interview with one of the spectators injured in the fatal accident on the 1986 Portuguese Internatonal Rally that began the end of GpB, in which he blamed the driver of the car that hit him rather than the organisers' total lack of spectator control or his own stupidity

 

 

 

 

So does Walter Röhrl....and I've always thought he was an #$%^&*@#$( because of it...

[alexocfp]

"The Group B Era" was undoubtedly popular with spectators but far less so with competitors at all levels. It has been further tarnished in recent years by a "documentary" that has been endlessly repeated on minor terrestrial TV channels and which contains major errors of all kinds, even down to the chronology of which cars arrived on the scene in which order. Its ultimate sin was to include an interview with one of the spectators injured in the fatal accident on the 1986 Portuguese Internatonal Rally that began the end of GpB, in which he blamed the driver of the car that hit him rather than the organisers' total lack of spectator control or his own stupidity

I think it was Christian Geisdorfer who was filmed in the GpB documentary I mention above saying "it was a madness and it had to end". Yes it did - but mainly for what it represented. GpA was soon as fast, leave alone the "Tonka Toy" cars of the present WRC.

So you stand less than a meter from passing cars, run across the road while cars are approaching, try to touch the cars during the race (resulting in a spectator losing 2 fingers tagging ended up inside the car), and taking photos of cars while they are driving forward you while in the middle of the road, and the driver is to blame?

The spectators took the risks, and some ended up paying the price. I don't blame either the drivers or the organizers. You could have stood further away as a spectator, in a safer area. Some chose the high risk spots.

[john aston]

Fact is...'86 was an absolutely momentous year in both disciplines. 85 had also been stupendous .The same reason applied to both- most of us who followed rallying and F1 could easily remember how in the recent past there had been a long period of stagnation and only incremental improvement year on year. It had been the law that every car on the RAC was an RS Escort and that every F1 car had to be built in  a shed in the UK and have a DFV bolted in the back. But from early 80s there had been seismic shifts in car diversity and power- for over a decade., most F1 cars had 450ish bhp and rally cars half that. But - bloody hell !- here were bellowing Honda V6 turbos and smoking BMW 4s with double the power and Quattros and S4Deltas with the same massive increase.

 

 Trackside I have never been to a more dramatic meeting than last GP at Brands in 86; watching final qualifying was utterly mesmerising . And so was the simply jaw dropping speed of the S4 in Stang forest. We were speechless- and we'd been watching rallies for nearly 20 years already.  

 

it was intoxicating, hugely exciting and addictive. I don't buy the 'one bigger than other' argument - suffice it to say both F1 and rallying were huge .And we sort of knew , or certainly should have if we'd thought about it, that the pace of change just could not continue like that - otherwise an accident at Brands would see a Williams destroying a  Dartford shopping centre ...         

[chunder27]

Spot on alex and John

 

I agree the cars were taken away from the mere punter, but that was the same in a lot of motorsport in those days, those days only lasted really into the 70's. After that factory teams dominated pretty much, more budget, best drivers, more testing. You could still compete in the same Ascona's Escorts. Lancia's and get the odd lucky win, but rarely. And BRG, the Manta was a total Group B car lol!  Never Group 4!!

 

Mercedes started it actually with the big taxi's they spent millions on that program, but no-one remembers it much!  Employed all the best drivers and did well on long events, but hopelessly on shorter sprint ones.

 

Group B was just too unregulated, and the manufacturers took advantage as they always do. You cant blame them for that, if you get that level of budget you spend it on making your program as good as it can be.

 

It was an amazing time for fans, sports cars, F1 rallying, rallycross.

Edited by chunder27, 30 November 2016 - 08:15.

[TecnoRacing]

So you stand less than a meter from passing cars, run across the road while cars are approaching, try to touch the cars during the race (resulting in a spectator losing 2 fingers tagging ended up inside the car), and taking photos of cars while they are driving forward you while in the middle of the road, and the driver is to blame?

The spectators took the risks, and some ended up paying the price. I don't blame either the drivers or the organizers. You could have stood further away as a spectator, in a safer area. Some chose the high risk spots.

 

In the end you have to blame spectators and the organizers though. Even if you accept that such spectators perhaps get what they deserve, what of the competitors? Do they deserve to be put being in position to avoid crazies running onto the stage, or mow down a dozen people (likely some of them children.)

[GeoffR]

How insane it could have got .... 

 

"Perhaps the most incredible feat Audi ever achieved in rallying never made it to rally competition. After the cancellation of Group B in 1986, Audi announced they had built an engine for rallying with more than 1000 horsepower! The engine was tested in several hill climbs, but the drivers reported that the car was completely undriveable, with an unsettling tendency to simply go straight in the corners. The Audi engineers never ceased to amaze rally observers during the Group B days, and even today, rally fans remember the Quattro with a mixture of awe and respect."

[chunder27]

That level of power would always be unusable to be honest, on tar or gravel it would simply shred tyres And spin wheels and put a massive strain on tranmissions

 

The rallycross guys in RS200's and Quattros were 650 -750. The figures you see elsewhere are not real.

 

But most of them limited it to about 600 in races with a boost button for the starts that are so important.

 

But in rallycross, handling and weight meant more. The Delta was an awful RX car despite being light and having lots of power but the 205 was perhaps even more dominant there than in rallying. The S1 E2 also was moderately quick but no match for the 205.

 

The RS200 and Metro were numerically common but it took Schanche years to get the 200 right  in terms of handling as it always had enough power, and the Metro was only ever quick after the first year as a 3 litre with increased capacity or sleeved down turbocharging to reduce weight as if you ran a 3 litre turbo the car would be in a weight category of its own.

 

Group S would have been interesting, the engines were getting smaller with more boost and some interesting turbo tech likely. But weight would have been key again, and aero would have come in ever more I think.

[RS2000]

Re-Post13 (quote doesn't work).

Yes the Manta 400 was only ever GpB but the Ascona 400 (arguably a better forest car than the lighter Manta 400) was initially Gp4. The BDA Escort was, of course, only a Gp4 car in the last 2 years of its works use (78/9)(and was still a Gp2 car in 76/7, running under the FIA relaxation to allow pre-76 spec Gp2 cars to run on in Gp4). The GpB Manta 200 (effectively a GpA Manta GTE with twin 48s) was a mainstay of the 2 litre GpB class on the continent with quite a few here too, especially after the rwd Escort ran out of homologation. For the sake of history its worth re-mentioning that GpB was not killed off at the end of 86, only the top capacity class was, removing all the "supercars".

Appendix J "freedoms" for modifications were the same in GpB as in GpA (except initially dry sumping was only allowed in GpB not GpA) and it was the lack of restriction in the basic spec that caused the problems. The FIA had intended GpB as a racing category, not rallying, and had never expected silly spec cars to be produced under the 200off minimum figure. Whether the proposed GpS really addressed that is a moot point. Todays WRC cars are to a much more effectively controlled category despite the low minimum quantity (which makes them no less 'orrible...). 

[chunder27]

Aye fella, Visa's and 240RS etc were still able to run on national rallies for years as was obviously the club spec 6R4 and the latter 2.5 screamer versions.

 

It happened in the WRC era too, the 206 WRC was never sold looking anything like the rally version, the 206 as it was, was too short and used those huge bumpers to increase the length of the car!!

[Henri Greuter]

What I think that enhanced the popularity of Group B (and Gp C for that matter.....) were the "International Motor Sports" programs we weekly got on Sky Channel, with all those nice reports from Brian Kreisky and Videovision. Maybe not up to par in quality with F1 coverage. But Gp B & C were almost exclusive to Sky Channel, and I am pretty sure that these programs and Videovision did a lot of the popularity of these formulas.

 

 

Henri

[chunder27]

I think personally that seeing any of these cars live in the flesh was what made you want to go again.

 

That was certainly my experience in rallies and rallycross.

 

I did go and see Group c once, but then as now got miffed with the race lasting so long, so wished I had gone on the qualifying day. But the cars were superb.

 

TV does help, but I think now there is too much tv, and you spread the load far too thin.  So the odd glimpse of something that got you excited as a kid, now is a year long subscription and hours of coverage!

[nmansellfan]

So the odd glimpse of something that got you excited as a kid, now is a year long subscription and hours of coverage!

I think fans of modern WRC would kill for that kind of coverage! The live final stage of Wales Rally GB on Channel 5 and BT sport in the UK this year is the first time I can remember live rallying on British TV since about 1989 or '90, though I stand to be corrected.

Returning back to the Group B, era my first introduction to rallying as an 8 year old was the nightly Rally Report of the '86 RAC Rally with William Woolard hosting. '86 was also the first year I can recall watching a GP on TV, the Adelaide decider. So I got interested at a high watermark point for both sports! By the time it got to Tommi Makinen's domination of the sport with the Lancer Evos, the cars just seemed uninspiring compared to Group B, particularly the Lancers that seemed so low revving and quiet in comparison to a 6R4 or a Delta S4.

I base all this on watching the sport on TV. When I finally saw rally cars running in the flesh (Group B and A, and a Group 4(?) Stratos), I realised that any full-house rally car driven with verve is impressive. And this was just in demo runs, years after Group 4, Group B and Group A had been superseded. But the spectacle of rallying is highly diminished by watching it on TV in comparison to real life I would say.

[chunder27]

I think I might have missed the point a little sorry.

As an introduction to the sport then yes tv was awesome, Steve Rider commentating or Dickie Davis on ITV, BHP coverage and Barrie shouting at people to get out the way! lol!

 

Some of those recording I probably watched hundreds of times!

 

So then you go to an event, and even as a kid it's awesome, I missed the boat a little as I wasn't old enough to drive in the mid 80's but still went to a few events.

 

I have been saying for years that tv coverage for WRC is rather pointless, necessary for sponsors and relevance, but it really is a sport you have to see live and experience.

[john aston]

TV motor sport , ultimately , is just watching telly. Which means a 2 D image, poor sound and your view being dictated  by an director. It's OK , and it's often the only show in town. but compared to the visceral experience of being track or stage side there actually is no comparison - in that one isn't a better version of the other but a completely different experience .

 

In the days when I went to Grands Prix, it was easy to spot the first timer- you'd hear the cars come out of the pits and , watching at somewhere like Bridge, you would hear the noise get impossibly loud  before an explosion of speed ,colour and a deafening howl announced the first car's presence . Gone in the blink of an eye - and you'd see the poor guy just reeling from the sensory overload of a GP car driven in anger. A silly grin , a finger in left ear and here they come again. In a way rallying was even better as you would hear a car miles away and be standing much closer than at a racetrack - close enough to smell the cut earth and see the codriver hunched down on the maps

 

You don't get that on Sky....  

[Henri Greuter]

TV motor sport , ultimately , is just watching telly. Which means a 2 D image, poor sound and your view being dictated  by an director. It's OK , and it's often the only show in town. but compared to the visceral experience of being track or stage side there actually is no comparison - in that one isn't a better version of the other but a completely different experience .

 

In the days when I went to Grands Prix, it was easy to spot the first timer- you'd hear the cars come out of the pits and , watching at somewhere like Bridge, you would hear the noise get impossibly loud  before an explosion of speed ,colour and a deafening howl announced the first car's presence . Gone in the blink of an eye - and you'd see the poor guy just reeling from the sensory overload of a GP car driven in anger. A silly grin , a finger in left ear and here they come again. In a way rallying was even better as you would hear a car miles away and be standing much closer than at a racetrack - close enough to smell the cut earth and see the codriver hunched down on the maps

 

You don't get that on Sky....  

 

Indeed, there is a lot you didn't get on Sky.

But it beated nothing for those who were unable to attend F1 races or WC rally events simply because there wasn't anything like that in your country.

 

No offence or insult intended but a number of English people posting on this forum seem to overlook that while racing on world level and with fellow countrymen participating at the highest levels was an every day occurrance and common, it definitely wasn't that in other, smaller countries.

I am not making an excuse for all the sometimes rediculous beaviour of my fellow countrymen bacause of the sudden arrival of Max Verstappen at the zenith of F1. But part of that is related with teh fact that we never had a continuing streak of drivers on top level within F1 we could root for and be enthused about. This is something new for us over here.

Again, no offence intended. But maybe his makes it more clear for some out here why those sky broadcasts over here in the Netherlands and possibly on other countries as well were so welcome and popular.

If my memory serves me well there was a Dutch dealer team supported Factory Ford RS200 competing in the Dutch open rally championship, driven by Stig Andervang. And John Bosch drove an elderly Audi Quattro. Hell, even a Visa Trophee was something special over here!

But to my memory, a 205Turbo16, S4 or 6R4. let alone a BX 4TC never appeared in the Netherlands to be driven in anger. We relied on Sky to see those because you didn't go to a World Championship Rally just for the fun that easily....

 

To anyone who feels insulted, my apologies in advance.

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 01 December 2016 - 18:58.

[RS2000]

No need to apologise in advance or otherwise (other than for liking GpB!).

A number of GpB cars ran in the Belgian Open Championship reasonably close by - Duez Quattro and 6R4, Droogmans RS200, apart from more mundane ones including mine.

 

Ah, Stig Andervang! He used that car on the RAC too, where his effective right hook applied to the nose of a driver he caught on a stage lost him his drive (and carreer?).

[BRG]

But to my memory, ..... a BX 4TC never appeared in the Netherlands to be driven in anger. 

To the best of my recollection, a BX4TC was never driven in anger anywhere else either.

[RS2000]

I think they did two or three WRC events, including Monte Carlo - but if there was any anger it was probably aimed at whoever designed it and chose to run it against all the "evolution" cars...  

[Henri Greuter]

To the best of my recollection, a BX4TC was never driven in anger anywhere else either.

 

Poor Andruet!  going from Ferrari 308 into `that` BX 4TC....  

 

I think that the 6th place in Sweden he had  that year must be rated as equal heroic as any victory with one of the other cars that has been victorious.

 

Even the worlds first ever petrol engined 4WD car was more sophisticated in drive line technology that the 4TC some 80 years later!  The 1903 Spyker at least had a center dif to cope with differences in rotation speeds between teh front and rear axle in corners.......

 

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 02 December 2016 - 07:03.

[john aston]

Jan de Rooyen and Gijs Van Lennep  , to name but two, kept the Dutch flag flying back in the day.I also recall being surrounded by very tall Dutchmen at Silverstone chanting 'Who's the  boss? Jos! Jos! Jos !  ' as a certain Benetton appeared. They were nearly right - young Max certainly has some bloody quick DNA

[chunder27]

The Dutch series was on tv as I recall, I think Bosch either paid for or helped secure full SKY coverage of the championships somehow! 

 

Andervang was not that great, but Bosch was tidy, came over here a few times, and I think for odd rounds there were 205's competing, usually paid for by the rally sponsors etc, plus in those days Ypres was a massive event and always got works cars in the 80's.

 

The BX was simply far too late, if they had built it in say 83 it might have been reasonable, but when you look at it compared to the Delta and 205 you see how ridiculous it was to even think it might work.

 

There are a few of them still going, apparently bought by that mad Irishman who seems to buy anything linked to GroupB, he bought a fleet of them a few years back I think, but they haven't been seen, seems he prefers driving 205's aswell as he probably has a few!!

[Henri Greuter]

Jan de Rooyen and Gijs Van Lennep  , to name but two, kept the Dutch flag flying back in the day.I also recall being surrounded by very tall Dutchmen at Silverstone chanting 'Who's the  boss? Jos! Jos! Jos !  ' as a certain Benetton appeared. They were nearly right - young Max certainly has some bloody quick DNA

 

 

Arie Luyendijk was more popular in the USA than in his own country....

[RS2000]

The French Forum Auto has an 18 page thread in its "Rallyes Historiques" section on "Where are the BX4TCs". Can't get a link to work.

 

As an aside, the biography of the reclusive Robert Millar, arguably Britain's greatest road cyclist before the current crop, has a fascinating reference to "the Citroen rally car in the garage" (of his then house in France). No indication as to what it was but the timescale corresponds to the BX4TC and him having reasonable funds. In trying to check this, it seems he is rumoured to now be living in Dorset as a woman under another name....  

[arttidesco]

Was anyone there at those rallies at that time?

 

 

 

 

The 1985 RAC Rally started at Wollaton Park in Nottingham, all I had to do was fall out of bed at stupid o'clock and saunter 2 miles down to the end of the road
 

 

It happened in the WRC era too, the 206 WRC was never sold looking anything like the rally version, the 206 as it was, was too short and used those huge bumpers to increase the length of the car!!

 

 

Apologies for pedantry, more on the Peugeot 206 GT which was used to homologate the 206 WRC bumpers here

[chunder27]

Well obviously they made SOME, or they wouldn't have been able to rally the thing, but they were hardly common were they!

[arttidesco]

Well obviously they made SOME, or they wouldn't have been able to rally the thing, but they were hardly common were they!

 

Nope, as I said apologies for pedantry